Epic Games Prevented From Expanding Apple Legal Battle to UK

[theotherphil]

As a developer, you can use whatever payment processor you like and keep all profits yourself all whilst targeting every iOS device right now….no legislation needed. Progressive Web Apps (PWA’s) are supported both on iOS and Android. This gives developers the option of not using Apple’s App Store and saving themselves 30% if they have their own payment processing, marketing, discovery, worldwide tax reporting, local payment methods and multiple currency support etc already in place.

https://www.simicart.com/blog/progressive-web-apps-examples/


To argue against this is agreeing that the App Store adds a value worth paying for and terms worth agreeing to. I’d hazard a guess that this will be a main argument from Apple in any antitrust case. Microsoft bringing iOS streaming games via a browser is going to massively hurt Epic’s case….it shows that they can target iOS users without any limitations from Apple.

 

[Marshall73]

As a developer, I say Apple's ecosystem is a pain in the rear to develop for and isn't worth my time. I got a different job that's less of a pain and makes more money anyway.

Creating an app is easy. Monetising the app is another matter. If you don’t have the ability to make something that people want then you could easily make much more money manning a checkout at Walmart.

 

[hot-gril]

Creating an app is easy. Monetising the app is another matter. If you don’t have the ability to make something that people want then you could easily make much more money manning a checkout at Walmart.

My job was just to make the app, and monetization was my boss's problem. Money aside, the job was too annoying for me to not look elsewhere. Spent too much of my time dealing with bad tools, bad programming languages, bad user interface APIs, and Apple changing all the above whenever they felt like it. Early versions of Swift were a nightmare; basically you were best avoiding it entirely until v5. It's not unfamiliarity. I knew how to do everything but still hated doing it.

Same on Mac. They break compatibility all the time with no remorse, then they wonder why all the devs are on Windows where their crap will run uninterrupted for literally decades. The trend towards universally compatible web apps is saving the Mac; very few devs want to put up with native Mac code, or even have the skills in the first place, since Apple makes things harder overall. Devs are humans too, and while you can put them on a spreadsheet as costs, the annoyance of putting up with Apple's bs translates to higher costs on said sheet.

I still make little apps as side projects, and I use React or RN and treat Apple's stuff just as a dependency that sometimes gets in the way. Now that I see what app development is supposed to look like, I'm never going back to Apple's way. I move so much faster now that simple things are simple to do. (Though my day job isn't that anyway.)

 

[hot-gril]

As a developer, you can use whatever payment processor you like and keep all profits yourself all whilst targeting every iOS device right now….no legislation needed. Progressive Web Apps (PWA’s) are supported both on iOS and Android. This gives developers the option of not using Apple’s App Store and saving themselves 30% if they have their own payment processing, marketing, discovery, worldwide tax reporting, local payment methods and multiple currency support etc already in place.

https://www.simicart.com/blog/progressive-web-apps-examples/


To argue against this is agreeing that the App Store adds a value worth paying for and terms worth agreeing to. I’d hazard a guess that this will be a main argument from Apple in any antitrust case. Microsoft bringing iOS streaming games via a browser is going to massively hurt Epic’s case….it shows that they can target iOS users without any limitations from Apple.

I've been there. Apple kneecaps PWAs intentionally. Can't do push notifications through iOS Safari, and users have to know how to add the app to the home screen via the bottom menu in Safari; you can't trigger that in JS. Two very big hurdles. Big corps like Sbux are going to have every kind of app possible of course, but you can't rely on a PWA alone.

Even on desktop or Android, they're pretty fragile and will just not work for a variety of strange reasons, likely due to lack of focused support.

 

[hot-gril]

Finally a reply that isn’t just replying for the sake of it. I don’t care much for the 30% cut, it’s more that they can come up with arbitrary rules around what’s allowed and what isn’t, like they did with xCloud. This is why I said I hope they both lose somehow because they’re both guilty of super anti-consumer practices. I’ve hated Epic since far before Fortnite even came out

Yeah, they can come up with arbitrary rules. Their platform their rules. Hundreds of millions of people like me do not care about playing Assassin's Creed on the go.

 

[Suckfest 9001]

Yeah, they can come up with arbitrary rules. Their platform their rules. Hundreds of millions of people like me do not care about playing Assassin's Creed on the subway.

Well that is in no way in the best interest of customers

 

[Ethosik]

meanwhile apple doesn’t let you repair your own phone, doesn’t let you install any software you want, gives you no root access, disallows any kind of gaming competition like xCloud using stupid policies, dips their hand for 30% of profits in cases where they clearly do not deserve it

PS5 does not allow having competing stores on it. I can't run Halo on a PS5 or Spider-Man on an Xbox for example.

They also ban you if you do too many modifications on the console too, and they are typically locked down for root access.

 

[Ethosik]

Root access aside, there's no reason they shouldn't allow you the ability for users and developers to distribute apps outside of the App Store other than greed.

It is not just greed. Security is a big concern if you open things up.

 

[hot-gril]

Well that is in no way in the best interest of customers

Yes, it's in the best interest of Apple's shareholders, that's how the economy works. To some degree, fulfilling the customers' needs matters for that. And customers don't need root access, evidently.

 

[Ethosik]

apple spent nothing on the development of Fortnite and spent nothing hosting the content and spent nothing advertising it and spent nothing making the DLCs.

Sony/Microsoft spends nothing on the development of my games, but even if I want to release them physically I still need to pay.

 

[Ethosik]

Yes, it's in the best interest of Apple's shareholders, that's how the economy works. To some degree, fulfilling the customers' needs matters for that. And customers don't need root access, evidently.

I really REALLY wish people would just stop with the whole greed argument. Every....single.....business PURELY exists for profits. FULL STOP. However, there are be secondary concerns from a company. Take a Hospital for example. If they make ZERO profits, the hospital would be on the chopping block to being shut down. But does this mean Hospitals do NOT care about their patient's health? Of course not. They still need to make a profit though.

 

[wbeasley]

They’re both trash. Epic is known for having (minorly) disrupted the game storefront space with exclusivity agreements and other examples of similarly poor business.

meanwhile apple doesn’t let you repair your own phone, doesn’t let you install any software you want, gives you no root access, disallows any kind of gaming competition like xCloud using stupid policies, dips their hand for 30% of profits in cases where they clearly do not deserve it

they’re both total garbage in terms of business practices, don’t go all pearl clutching just because your whole house doesn’t run on their locked down ecosystem

you know Apple have a walled garden BEFORE you buy in.
most of us like that.

if you dont, there's plenty of Android devices out there for you buy instead.

 

[hot-gril]

I really REALLY wish people would just stop with the whole greed argument. Every....single.....business PURELY exists for profits. FULL STOP. However, there are be secondary concerns from a company. Take a Hospital for example. If they make ZERO profits, the hospital would be on the chopping block to being shut down. But does this mean Hospitals do NOT care about their patient's health? Of course not. They still need to make a profit though.

"Corporate greed" to me means focusing on short-term profits instead of long-term ones, and it's a useful distinction. Usually translates to taking profits at the expense of possibly pissing off customers vs building a lasting user base. Maybe it sounds obvious that the latter is better, but there's actually a delicate balance.

 

[Ethosik]

They break compatibility all the time with no remorse, then they wonder why all the devs are on Windows where their crap will run uninterrupted for literally decades.

And that is one of the biggest issues with Windows, all that bloat. I was hoping things would improve with Windows 10 but they have not. I still see dialogs and items in Windows that both LOOK and exist from Windows 95.

 

[Suckfest 9001]

PS5 does not allow having competing stores on it. I can't run Halo on a PS5 or Spider-Man on an Xbox for example.

They also ban you if you do too many modifications on the console too, and they are typically locked down for root access.

Yeah that’s total BS too in my opinion. It’s why I just built a computer instead

 

[Ethosik]

"Corporate greed" to me means focusing on short-term profits instead of long-term ones, and it's a useful distinction. Usually translates to pissing off customers for quick money vs building a lasting user base. Seems like no big corp would ever do the former, but they do sometimes.

How is "Corporate greed" connected to Apple's iOS App Store that has existed since the second iPhone where prior no Apps existed?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Pointing out flaws in your favourite company isn’t being a whiny brat.

You read that slightly wrong - they sure used to be but obviously not anymore.

as much as it doesn’t look it, I approve of like 80% of the stuff they do but naturally as someone who is super invested I am highly critical of less desirable things that I see. I do appreciate your respectful reply.

I don’t see how I read it wrong... unless you meant “pointing out flaws in SOMEONE ELSE’S favourite company isn’t being a whiny brat?

 

[Ethosik]

Yeah that’s total BS too in my opinion. It’s why I just built a computer instead

Well I don't agree but at least you are not going after Apple just because its Apple like others do here. I absolutely cannot stand the PlayStation, but I like the Spider-Man game. I would definitely prefer the Xbox hardware (or PC) and be able to play the Spider-man game.

 

[hot-gril]

How is "Corporate greed" connected to Apple's iOS App Store that has existed since the second iPhone where prior no Apps existed?

When they suddenly change the rules in an attempt to gain more control than they had before. Like requiring "log in with Apple" in some cases.

 

[Suckfest 9001]

you know Apple have a walled garden BEFORE you buy in.
most of us like that.

if you dont, there's plenty of Android devices out there for you buy instead.

Honestly that’s a cop out of a reply. I don’t have to just force myself to love every part of the product. If there’s something I’m unhappy with then I’m fully entitled to voice it. Otherwise why do forums exist? So we can all just agree and nod along with each other about how perfect every detail totally is? How disappointing

 

[Ethosik]

When they suddenly change the rules in an attempt to gain more control than they had before. Like requiring "log in with Apple" in some cases.

Sorry that is just the IT industry. Do you honestly think that same rules would apply from 2008 to the end of time without ANY changes?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If there’s something I’m unhappy with then as I’m fully entitled to voice it. Otherwise why do forums exist?

Forums exist for someone to make money from the ads on the page. Folks will say things other folks don’t like, other folks will say things the first folks won’t like and alll those lovely ad views are why the back and forth exists

 

[hot-gril]

And that is one of the biggest issues with Windows, all that bloat. I was hoping things would improve with Windows 10 but they have not. I still see dialogs and items in Windows that both LOOK and exist from Windows 95.

For many users, being able to run their programs in the first place is more important. And despite the bloated nature of Windows, anything having to do with graphics (mostly creative tools and games) tends to perform way better under it.

Remember when Apple was pushing OpenGL despite never supporting the latest version of it, then one day they said actually no, it's deprecated, use Metal? Soon after, they also said, Macs can't run 32-bit code anymore. It's like they Thanos snapped half the games away, twice. I'm proud not to care much about games, but I still play occasionally and observe how lame they are on Mac.

 

[hot-gril]

Sorry that is just the IT industry. Do you honestly think that same rules would apply from 2008 to the end of time without ANY changes?

No, but it'd be nice if the changes were actually improvements and not a blatant attempt at brand lock-in.
Also, it's more like, once every single year, your code will probably break.

 

[pacalis]

My job was just to make the app, and monetization was my boss's problem. Money aside, the job was too annoying for me to not look elsewhere. Spent too much of my time dealing with bad tools, bad programming languages, bad user interface APIs, and Apple changing all the above whenever they felt like it. Early versions of Swift were a nightmare; basically you were best avoiding it entirely until v5. It's not unfamiliarity. I knew how to do everything but still hated doing it.

All you have established with your boss comment is that monetization is a higher order problem than development and that there is a lot of value in tools, languages, and APIs.

Seems like your really arguing that Apple should charge more than 30%.