Epic Games 'Spent Months' Preparing Lawsuit Against Apple, Codenamed 'Project Liberty'

[Makosuke]

I have little interest or sympathy in giant, incredibly wealthy companies doing legal battle with much more giant, much more incredibly wealthy companies because they want to be richer. It'll work out however it works out, whatever.

But the disingenuous nature of Epic's lawsuit and claims really rub me the wrong way. They're not saying they're angry about not getting their money's worth from Apple's fees in terms of dev support, or even that they just want a bigger cut because they're big and profitable, to be able to get a cut of other people's games by doing a very similar thing rebranded as an Epic store, and to have Apple's platform completely restructured to benefit Epic and more or less only Epic.

Instead, they're saying that Apple is somehow unique despite offering essentially the same deal and restrictions as every game console maker has for the entirety of modern gaming, and that it's about "liberty".

If antitrust litigators want to break up Apple or force them to restructure their platform, fine. That's what governments do. I don't want to hear Epic whining about it, though, when they just want the cut to be theirs.

 

[deevey]

I’d give even odds that assuming Epic wins, it won’t help smaller developers, only ones that don’t necessarily need the help today.

Apple has already implemented their store fee cuts to small developers - That must have been real salt in the wound for Epic as they can't benefit whatsoever

 

[miric]

Bullsh*berty.

 

[deevey]

Frankly.... this just seems like the rich squabbling to get richer.

As far as this lawsuit goes I only care about 2 things:

a) I’d like to play fortnite on my iPhone again w/o streaming it from a 3rd party like Shadow or GFN.

b) I would love to be able to install (understandably at my own risk) 3rd party apps through means other than the App Store. Odds are 99% of my apps would be through Apple’s distribution system, but having the option to install things like emulators on my phone would be nice.

How side loading could work well:

Example 1.
You search google for "Fortnight Download"
The first site that shows up in search results is NOT legitimate (without you knowing) - *click download*
Congratulations! - you now have malware.

Example 2.
You get an email from the bank saying you need to update your software - *click download*
New app installed - you log into your bank and ....
Congratulations! - Your new balance is $0

If you want to play Fortnight on your phone again - send an email to Epic as an angry customer and ask them to stop acting like spoilt children.

I'm confused. If they just use an off App Store payment system like Spotify does, then like Spotify, they would not pay any App Store fees to anyone. so what is their beef? clearly they have a payment system already. Go to Epic pay, buy a game, go to any device you own, play that game, duh?

But you wouldn't be able to advertise in-game whatsoever which is where the money is made.

 

[Homme]

Epic already won a bit, they got Apple to reduce Dev fees for projects under a million revenue I believe. This is a fight worth doing

Are you seriously kidding me mate


the whole part on reducing 15% of dev fees to under a million was on apples part not epics (as if epic could do anything to do with it). Nothing to do with the scenario between them and you know that

and also this doesn’t mean “Epic Won a bit ”

 

[nikaru]

To be honest, Apple policy seems a bit harsh. 30% cut is way to high. If it was 10%, nobody would have raised the voice. Of course, Apple should be charging fees for anyone selling through their platform, the same way Amazon or Ebay charge you a small fee for each item you sell through their platforms. 30% does not sound as a fair deal.

 

[4jasontv]

But you wouldn't be able to advertise in-game whatsoever which is where the money is made.

Nor should they be able to advertise whatsoever within an app. We need to let go of this notion that our attention is a free resource for companies to mine and sell.

 

[Stevesak]

Physical product purchases are not subject to the 30% fee so its a null argument. Although it will probably require a separate payment portal. However if their idea is some kind of vbucks to dollars currency exchange that could get messy real fast.

I’d argue that physical product purchases are easily 30%. A store buys a product for $1 from a manufacturer and sells it for $2, in fact they would be taking 50% of the product purchase. I’m sure it varies but 30% is probably in line with industry average. Resellers supply marketing and infrastructure and need to pay employees amd maybe even turn a profit. Apple’s walled garden provides a safe place for us to play. Would I like an emulator on my iPhone? You bet, but I’d like that to be walled off so it can’t access anything else... at all... on my phone. Is it worth moving to google for said emulator? For me that’s a resounding no. I don’t want to be Google’s product, and have them profit from me — just because I purchased one of their data collecting “phones”.

 

[ArPe]

And if side loading gets you hacked and your bank or credit card information stolen are you fine being on your own?

When sideloaders see the ransomware message appear on their screen

 

[warp9]

I know gaming is a big thing for some people. But when all is said and done they make video games, if epic went out of business right now, it would suck just because people would lose their jobs, that's about it. Nothing else

Unreal Engine is a tool used for tv and movie production. For example, it's used to create the vfx backgrounds for The Mandalorian.

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Unreal Engine revitalizes the entire film production process. From high-quality previs, virtual production, and in-camera visual effects that take the post out of production. A new era of storytelling.

www.unrealengine.com

 

[4jasontv]

Instead, they're saying that Apple is somehow unique despite offering essentially the same deal and restrictions as every game console maker has for the entirety of modern gaming, and that it's about "liberty".

Epic is a marketing company and their biggest client is their developer tools. Fortnight, lawsuits, the Epic game store are all adverts for the unreal engine. That's all this is. It's a well crafted, well funded, marketing campaign. They went after Apple because Apple gets headlines. That's why all Unreal games should have been pulled from the app store. That's the real product. Fortnight is just an inception of ads for the engine.

 

[DrV]

Interesting. Just one question popped into my mind. What is the court of law where the trial will be held? Apple and Epic are truly international companies having a lot going on outside of the US.

And while the US is relatively straightforward, even the EU has 25+ different national jurisdictions. It is at least extremely uncertain if any extraterritoriality can be applied here (possibly but not likely under antitrust laws).

So, this is going to be a long journey for Epic even if a US judge rules in favor of them.

 

[infinitejest]

What a waste of time.

 

[cmwade77]

[bold emphasis in quote above added by me]

So, Epic Games is using the same lawyers representing ex-President Trump in the 2nd impeachment trial? Or maybe they are using Rudy Giuliani?

Either way, that should work out well for Epic...

Actually there is a legitimate argument to be had here that Apple is indeed abusing their power by limiting to just their payment system. If Apple allowed some way to install apps that weren't from their App Store, similar to what Android allows, it would essentially eliminate this argument, but since they don't, there it a legitimate argument to be made.

I am not saying Epic will or won't be successful, just that they do have a legitimate argument.

 

[cmwade77]

I have little interest or sympathy in giant, incredibly wealthy companies doing legal battle with much more giant, much more incredibly wealthy companies because they want to be richer. It'll work out however it works out, whatever.

But the disingenuous nature of Epic's lawsuit and claims really rub me the wrong way. They're not saying they're angry about not getting their money's worth from Apple's fees in terms of dev support, or even that they just want a bigger cut because they're big and profitable, to be able to get a cut of other people's games by doing a very similar thing rebranded as an Epic store, and to have Apple's platform completely restructured to benefit Epic and more or less only Epic.

Instead, they're saying that Apple is somehow unique despite offering essentially the same deal and restrictions as every game console maker has for the entirety of modern gaming, and that it's about "liberty".

If antitrust litigators want to break up Apple or force them to restructure their platform, fine. That's what governments do. I don't want to hear Epic whining about it, though, when they just want the cut to be theirs.

Epic has made it clear they see this as a fight for the smaller players, as Epic has said they are just fine even without iOS, but the smaller developers might not be and may not be able to give Apple a 30% cut and stay in business.

 

[cmwade77]

What a waste of time.

Not a waste of time at all and whatever the ruling is, there will be far reaching consequences on this one.

 

[Pilot Jones]

Epic Games: “Project Liberty”

Me: Barfs

 

[DocMultimedia]

Fort who?

Ugh. Sick of this stuff. Either use app store or optimize your content to run in JS on a web page.

 

[4jasontv]

Actually there is a legitimate argument to be had here that Apple is indeed abusing their power by limiting to just their payment system. If Apple allowed some way to install apps that weren't from their App Store, similar to what Android allows, it would essentially eliminate this argument, but since they don't, there it a legitimate argument to be made.

I am not saying Epic will or won't be successful, just that they do have a legitimate argument.

How about this. You have to sell via Apple but you can offer an alternative payment method. If your alterative method is less than what the price is via Apple the difference comes out of the developer's cut first. That way customers are sure they are paying the same amount no matter what payment platform they use and Apple still gets their 15-30% cut.

 

[Krevnik]

correct me if i’m wrong, but sideloading ≠ alternate app stores.

each app would need to be installed manually via downloadable .ipa

i think if apple were to allow this, Epic would back down. they would release fortnite in the app store without Epic Pay, and then release a separate sideload-able version with it.

Don't confuse Epic's rhetoric with their goal.

Epic has been talking about Epic Game Store on Android and iOS for a lot longer than this latest battle, with this article from June mentioning that Epic (Sweeny specifically) had talked about iOS/Android versions of the Epic Game Store as far back as December 2018: https://www.techradar.com/news/epic-games-store-to-launch-on-android-ios-devices-why-it-makes-sense

Epic wants Apple and Google's cut gone, but they also want to become distributor on these platforms themselves. Sideloading is one way to potentially enable it, but you can bet that if this comes down in a narrow decision that really only helps distributors, then Epic will 100% take it and let the little guys rot.

Someone else in the thread already commented that this is a spat between rich people squabbling over who gets to get X% richer vs Y% richer. Which is absolutely on point.

 

[4jasontv]

Don't confuse Epic's rhetoric with their goal.

Epic has been talking about Epic Game Store on Android and iOS for a lot longer than this latest battle, with this article from June mentioning that Epic (Sweeny specifically) had talked about iOS/Android versions of the Epic Game Store as far back as December 2018: https://www.techradar.com/news/epic-games-store-to-launch-on-android-ios-devices-why-it-makes-sense

Epic wants Apple and Google's cut gone, but they also want to become distributor on these platforms themselves. Sideloading is one way to potentially enable it, but you can bet that if this comes down in a narrow decision that really only helps distributors, then Epic will 100% take it and let the little guys rot.

Someone else in the thread already commented that this is a spat between rich people squabbling over who gets to get X% richer vs Y% richer. Which is absolutely on point.

And you better believe they will give priority to games made with the Unreal Engine.

 

[Wildkraut]

Epic is a marketing company and their biggest client is their developer tools. Fortnight, lawsuits, the Epic game store are all adverts for the unreal engine. That's all this is. It's a well crafted, well funded, marketing campaign. They went after Apple because Apple gets headlines. That's why all Unreal games should have been pulled from the app store. That's the real product. Fortnight is just an inception of ads for the engine.

It's not only about Apple, the whole tech industry scheme needs to be reviewed, and laws rewritten.
Selling hardware with software licensing excuses must be forbidden by law worldwide.

And "IF" they lose in the US, doesn't mean they will lose in the EU.
But yeah, Macrumors is primary an US centric site, that's why most people in here tend to not look over the edge of their plates. It will be a long journey.

 

[jz0309]

So have have planned all of this out form months in advance ...
They expected this reaction ...
They claim to be the "good" guy who is morally right ...

Wow, I hope Apple is crafting a response and goes prepared into the trial to kick their a#$% off, they are shady and should not win.

At the same token, 30% cut for Apple, I think it is fair to re-visit the percentage, but that is it.

 

[Romeo_Nightfall]

I don’t believe this idea that they are doing it for a greater good; to help small developers. Epic are by any normal definition, a very large company. The App Store has helped many small developers to go independent and make a living. In Epic’s world view, they would dominate by having one of the many large app stores and being the gate keeper instead of Apple. I don’t see how that’s is any kind of improvement for small developers.

Open your eyes - how does our economy work? It works by ..... tang tang .... variety or diversity - having 2 - well major APP stores in the WORLD of mobile devices is just insane!

 

[icanhazmac]

Epic Games 'Spent Months' Preparing Lawsuit Against Apple, Codenamed 'Project Liberty'​

Proposed Edit: Epic Games 'Spent Months' preparing lawsuit against Apple, Codenamed: 'Project Pissing in the wind'.