Epic Games v. Apple Trial Wraps Up, But We Likely Won't Know the Outcome for Months

[Cosmosent]

Too bad select third-party App Devs were NOT brought into the mix.

They could have acted as an Arbitrator & easily defined a compromise solution.

Personally, I don't agree with either Epic's arguments OR Apple's arguments in the case !

To me, simply posturing on both sides !

What's needed are "App Discovery" App Stores, that would compete head-on with Apple's "curated" little kid / Game focus, & get a piece of Apple's cut (e.g., 1/3 of Apple's cut) for anything they bring in.

 

[mrperezmarc]

Is there a place we can read or see the full transcript of the trial?

 

[Shirasaki]

True. Just the lawyers.

Oh, and the client.

Just the lawyers and the client.

Oh, and the consumer.

So just the lawyers, the client and the consumer.

Oh, and the websites that publish articles on this.

So the lawyers, the client, the consumer, and the websites.

So everyone wins?

 

[kcslc]

This judge seems to be technologically impaired. You cannot force Apple to allow 3rd party payments!

My family business rents office space from 1 of 2 strip centers in our town. I agreed to the terms. I lease the space. We give them a percentage of our profits. If I do not want to give them a commission, I will LEAVE. BUT, they are in a GOOD LOCATION. They bring CUSTOMERS TO US!

I wish the Apple apologists would stop criticizing (unfairly I might add) the judge for being what she was supposed to be in this case: a judge.

 

[Shirasaki]

Great question overall — nothing prevents Epic by the way to charge its iOS customers more to make up for the Apple premium. Customers will have a choice to go on different platforms at different price points. Point is Epic has not tried anything and is just crying foul.

I’d argue all developers should charge more for iOS customers to make up for the apple premium from day one the App Store was introduced. God knows why they didn’t think about that. If $12.99 is the bare minimum you can profit from your work after accounting for 30% cut from apple, charge $12.99, instead of $9.99. Any dev that did not foresee this issue is liable for their business decisions, not apple. I don’t believe apple has the right to force devs to charge less and foot the 30% cut themselves.

 

[Runequester]

Having listened to quite a bit of the trial, it is still not clear to me what laws Apple have actually broken.

 

[RavynArcadia]

I wish the Apple apologists would stop criticizing (unfairly I might add) the judge for being what she was supposed to be in this case: a judge.

True, but if you are a judge overseeing a tech related case, you should know some things tech. I'm not saying she fully knows nothing or anything like that. Just an observation.

 

[RavynArcadia]

Having listened to quite a bit of the trial, it is still not clear to me what laws Apple have actually broken.

They hurt Epic's fewwings.

Epic went full in knowing that they were breaking the ToS they signed with Apple. If they didn't want to deal with the 30% they didn't have to sign. Why not sue google at the same time? Their store is the same 30%. It's not like Apple started their store with a lower required cut, it's been the same since launch, did they bitch about it then or when they got greedy and wanted more?

 

[bluecoast]

Apple is going to come out badly out of this whatever the case.

If you argue that the App Store is important for security reasons, well that then surely is a cost that Apple needs to pay to protect its cash cow, the iPhone? It feels a bit rich for the most successful company in the world to say that it need to break even on the store.

Tim Cook I think summed up the real reason which was essentially ‘we built it, so devs need to pay us to be on it’.

This sounds very much like the attitude that Microsoft had around 2000 about Windows. And that didn’t end well for them.

Finally, there can be very few devs out there who are truly happy with Apple’s attitude.

This is not a good place for Apple to be in at all.

Especially as AVR / VR is about to become very big and there’s a number of different vendors out there. Apple needs a lot of good will. Not developers working with them partly out of fear.

 

[coachgq]

and you seem to be legally impaired

Why and or how?

 

[Homme]

I’d argue all developers should charge more for iOS customers to make up for the apple premium from day one the App Store was introduced. God knows why they didn’t think about that. If $12.99 is the bare minimum you can profit from your work after accounting for 30% cut from apple, charge $12.99, instead of $9.99. Any dev that did not foresee this issue is liable for their business decisions, not apple. I don’t believe apple has the right to force devs to charge less and foot the 30% cut themselves.

either that or go the Spotify method.. use the web for cheaper like they’re memberships or both 😁

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I think she’ll probably force Apple to allow in-app notifications that the purchase can be made cheaper on a website or the like, but do nothing beyond that. Guess we will see.

But if that’s all she does, Apple has to be pretty happy with that.

What precedent or logical justification would she have to force Apple to inform people on it's store to find outside sources for other rates? I doubt she'll do even that.

 

[Tsubame]

My early prediction is that Apple may be forced to allow apps to notify users that they can pay for things from outside the app as well as inside. No other changes will probably be forced, which Epic won't be happy about.

Honestly, I am okay with that. It damages Apple's bottom line I am sure, but they'll still be profitable and unless I was a shareholder that really doesn't affect me. The thing I was hoping they would preserve (the walled-garden nature of the App Store) seems to be intact. The only really negative outcome for me was that Apple would be forced to allow external app stores, which would pretty much ruin the experience.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a lot of users just opted to continue using IAP, even if it is a slightly higher rate, for convenience sake.

 

[coachgq]

I do not understand why epic thinks Apple needs to allow other people on their system. When Kmart was king did Sam Walton come in and say, you need to open space up to us? No, he took a risk and opened his own space and made it better. Epic should do the same. Spend your money, come up with a place to sell your technology and put apple out of business? No, that’s too risky. It’s easier to go to court and try to get a judge to make it happen.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

My early prediction is that Apple may be forced to allow apps to notify users that they can pay for things from outside the app as well as inside. No other changes will probably be forced, which Epic won't be happy about.

Honestly, I am okay with that. It damages Apple's bottom line I am sure, but they'll still be profitable and unless I was a shareholder that really doesn't affect me. The thing I was hoping they would preserve (the walled-garden nature of the App Store) seems to be intact. The only really negative outcome for me was that Apple would be forced to allow external app stores, which would pretty much ruin the experience.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a lot of users just opted to continue using IAP, even if it is a slightly higher rate, for convenience sake.

Or allow for a reference to their App Page to consult the App Developer Site for further ‘options.'

 

[mejsric]

opening up iOS is actually good for China.

 

[Scipster]

In her questioning, YGR keeps going back to the example of Nordstrom's and seeing American Express, Visa, and Mastercard when paying for items. Although Nordstrom's is not telling customers they can find a cheaper deal elsewhere, consumers can choose how they can pay for a product (e.g. do I want to pay through Apple, or through Epic?). If that's any indication, I think she may ultimately prohibit Apple from dictating what payment processors developers may or may not include in their apps, but that's as far as she seems willing to go in this anti-trust litigation. The safety, privacy, and security of a single app store is here to stay.

As she mentioned earlier, there are other ways that Apple can monetize its IP, which is the reason Tim Cook gave for collecting 30% on IAP. In particular, she found that the subsidies the gaming industry was effectively giving to other industries (e.g. the banking industry, which does not pay commission on free apps) for access to the same IP particularly problematic. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple changes the pricing structure for their Apple Developer Accounts. Perhaps $99 for small developers earning less than $1 million in yearly revenue, and a progressive rate from there.

 

[Shirasaki]

either that or go the Spotify method.. use the web for cheaper like they’re memberships or both 😁

Spotify route is definitely the last resort for apple to those competing companies and an attempt to avoid being targeted by regulators much. If this Epic saga can force apple to allow devs to disclose cheaper ways to enjoy their services, that’d be good for most people.

 

[cmaier]

Spotify route is definitely the last resort for apple to those competing companies and an attempt to avoid being targeted by regulators much. If this Epic saga can force apple to allow devs to disclose cheaper ways to enjoy their services, that’d be good for most people.

Until those people try to cancel their subscriptions and find that they have to spend 6 hours on the phone and sacrifice a goat to get it done, sure.

 

[6787872]

I’d argue all developers should charge more for iOS customers to make up for the apple premium from day one the App Store was introduced. God knows why they didn’t think about that. If $12.99 is the bare minimum you can profit from your work after accounting for 30% cut from apple, charge $12.99, instead of $9.99. Any dev that did not foresee this issue is liable for their business decisions, not apple. I don’t believe apple has the right to force devs to charge less and foot the 30% cut themselves.

let's see...
spotify = 12.99
apple music = 9.99

most customers are going to go with the cheaper option, makes it kind of hard to compete.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

This judge seems to be technologically impaired. You cannot force Apple to allow 3rd party payments!

I think this is one reason why the decision will take some time. The judge doesn’t want to set any new precedents as they believe that current law already covers the many parts of this well. BUT, the decision will still need to be well researched and written. Once this is over, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo as well as others will breathe a sigh of relief.

 

[ghostface147]

I’m more interested in what the EU and other international courts rule. They seem to be much more consumer friendly and don’t like walled gardens.

 

[jasonkeeven]

I feel like her parallel of the Nordstrom’s example is already available to me on the App Store… I can switch my payment method from visa to a MasterCard or AMex at any time… I have that choice. Giving Epic a cash register in the App Store doesn’t expand my choices as a consumer at all. At least not in the way she is applying that example.

 

[ArtOfWarfare]

Years, not months. Whoever loses will appeal. It will take a long time for final resolution.

It’s possible Apple may make some moves to have the case settled. WWDC would be a great opportunity for Apple to make some pro-developer/customer announcements which are over a decade overdue and pretend that this was always the exact moment they wanted to make the changes.

Remember that they did already cut their cut in half for developers making under $1M in response to this trial.

 

[ArtOfWarfare]

Epic Games could not demonstrate similar antitrust cases where the extreme kind of outcome it is asking for had been granted by a court.

Eh... the judge was really splitting hairs there. Epic cited Microsoft and the judge’s response was “that lawsuit was brought forward by the government, not a business”. Does that really matter? Our government has kind of sucked at regulating any business recently... if the executive branch doesn’t want to bring businesses to court, then it seems businesses will have to drag each other there.