Epic vs. Apple Takes a Twist As 35 US States and Department of Justice Weigh in to Back 'Fortnite' Maker

[Sophisticatednut]

But aren't web apps even more secure?

Apple should have that power cause it's all about security, that's the argument, isn't it?

Web apps are not secure at all as they aren't vetted and anyone can make a web app if they want. They are just limited by the fact Safari is limited in what it can do for security reasons to prevent random websites from exploiting the iPhone.

Speaking of the web, no one is talking about what opening up iOS would mean for the open Web. Currently Apple is the lone holdout against Chromium (Firefox is a dead browser walking). Opening up iOS = Google Web monopoly. And unlike iOS’s restriction, which can easily be bypassed by switching to Android, this monopoly will be inescapable. This is what the courts should actually be looking at.

Ironic considering Chromium is a fork of WebKit. Currently, Chrome is not a monopoly, but it's not thanks to iOS, as what i can fins iOS is only 4% of the global browser market share.
But it will likely be something regulators will look at. They are for example looking at Google search dominant position abusing the market. And they have been fined a couple of times for doing so and ordered to change.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

The regulators are finally waking up to Apple’s shenanigans. Their App Store policies would make 90s Microsoft blush and yet they’ve been able to skate scott free for more than a decade. Buckle up Timmy, it will be a bumpy ride!

What shenanigan? It's their operating system so it's their duty to maintain its quality and security. Only the hardware belongs to you after the purchase. If you want to ruin your device with third party stores and side loading don't go cry to Apple Support when you get into trouble.

BTW, the only reason Microsoft got in trouble in the 90s was because they built IE into the File Explorer. The reason they did that was because Netscape's investors wanted to make Netscape into an operating system with all apps web based, which would have made Netscape a default browser on that OS if it ever existed. Microsoft was simply doing what the other major browser player wanted to do.

Microsoft removed IE4 from the File Explorer, paid a fine, but maintained and grew their monopoly. Apple has never had a monopoly in any category. Their pricing doesn't permit their devices to be the most used. They don't licence their OS to others so they will always be the second and sometimes third most popular OS.

 

[aka20p]

Apple should ask the judge to cancel their Spotify membership and see the experience and then cancel his Apple Music membership. I think actions in this case will speak louder than words.

The recent Spotify/ joe rogan vs. Neil Young gives you a glimpse of what’s to come.

People wishing to cancel their subscription are forced to call Spotify customer support as it’s app does not have that function.
Customer service is not responding .
The classic gym membership mentality .

This is what will happen to us all. Wanting to understand our expenses and what we spend on will require keeping track on all the “impulse purchases”, make us spend more money and have harder time tracking it and cancelling things.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I have no interest in jail breaking my device.

And what’s the difference to you having no interest to jailbreak to you not wanting to klick the same jailbreak button apple provided? What if apple made an official jailbreak tool? Would that be more okey?

 

[Maximara]

But aren't web apps even more secure?

Have you seen the state of the internet lately? A web app could easily social engineer the crap out of people.

Apple should have that power cause it's all about security, that's the argument, isn't it?

Common web app vulnerabilities:

• Injection.  An injection happens when a bad actor sends invalid data to the web app to make it operate differently from the intended purpose of the application.
• Broken Authentication.  A broken authentication vulnerability allows a bad actor to gain control over an account within a system or the entire system.
• Sensitive Data Exposure. Sensitive data exposure means data is vulnerable to being exploited by a bad actor when it should have been protected.
• XML External Entities (XXE). A type of attack against an application that parses XML input and occurs when XML input containing a reference to an external entity is processed by a weakly configured XML parser.
• Broken Access Control. When components of a web application are accessible instead of being protected like they should be, leaving them vulnerable to data breaches.
• Security Misconfigurations. Incorrectly misconfiguring a web application provides bad actors with an easy way in to exploit sensitive information.
• Cross Site Scripting (XSS). An XSS attack means a bad actor injects malicious client-side scripts into a web application.
• Insecure Deserialization. Bad actors will exploit anything that interacts with a web application—from URLs to serialized objects—to gain access.
• Using Components with Known Vulnerabilities. Instances such as missed software and update change logs can serve as big tip-offs for bad actors looking for ins into a web application. Disregarding updates can allow a known vulnerability to survive within a system.
• Insufficient Logging and Monitoring. Lack of efficient logging and monitoring processes increases the chances of a web app being compromised.

The majority of these vulnerabilities are out of the control of WAFs since WAFs are limited in their ability to stop malicious traffic that appears entirely legitimate.

 

[Maximara]

So Epic simply wants their own App Store on iOS where they can not only get out of paying Apple their 30%, but also host other apps and charge these developers a commission.

No Epic wants one store on all devices be they desktop, mobile, and even console and then charge any developers a commission. As I said a monopolist's wet dream come true.

 

[Abazigal]

And what’s the difference to you having no interest to jailbreak to you not wanting to klick the same jailbreak button apple provided? What if apple made an official jailbreak tool? Would that be more okey?

Apple won’t. And the method you shared is likely not the intended purpose by Apple (I see it more akin to distributing beta versions of apps via TestFlight than letting you access apps otherwise not available in the App Store, like say pornography or gambling apps).

Apple may not be able to remedy this yet without screwing over developers using it for legitimate purposes, but I won’t be surprised if it “magically” just stops working one day.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple should ask the judge to cancel their Spotify membership and see the experience and then cancel his Apple Music membership. I think actions in this case will speak louder than words.

What are you trying to prove or suggest there?

Spotify's cancellation process could easily be the easiest and smoothest in the industry and Apple Music's an absolute abomination. If they aren't today, then it could change any time.

Are you suggesting any self-respecting judge will base his decision in such a high-profile case on his personal cancellation experience at one single point in time?

People wishing to cancel their subscription are forced to call Spotify customer support as it’s app does not have that function.

Why doesn't it have that?

Could that be exactly because Apple doesn't allow Spotify to sign up users in-app in the first place?

...unless, of course, Spotify submits to Apple's - notably a direct competitor in the music streaming space - onerous terms, conditions and fees?

 

[Maximara]

Let me know when other platforms like switch or PlayStation allow competing app stores as well.

But that is Epic's goal as stated by their own CEO - one store for all platforms.

Some will argue that iOS is a general computing platform and should be more like windows, but I feel that since Apple makes the hardware and software, they get to call the shots as to whether they wish to allow apps on their platform, and how.

The same as a car company has the right to control access to the software that makes sure the car runs.

And personally, I feel I am still better served by there being one App Store where all apps are subject to Apple’s own rules, which will far from being perfect, is still better than not having any rules at all.

That is what the California court thought as well.

 

[Abazigal]

But that is Epic's goal as stated by their own CEO - one store for all platforms.

Which was completely different from what Epic claimed to be trying to do when they initially sued only Apple.

Epic Games is suing Apple

Epic has filed a civil antitrust lawsuit following Apple’s removal of Fortnite from the App Store.

www.theverge.com

Initially, Epic’s stance was that it’s unfair that Apple required developers to use its payment methods, giving Apple 30% of all IAP (which is precisely what Epic is doing with their own store, albeit at a lower percentage).

It’s only after losing the lawsuit did Tim Sweeney suddenly do an about-face and change tune and claim that now it’s all about having one unified App Store across all platforms. Anything to change the narrative that Epic is in this situation because of his reckless gamble that risked not only Fortnite, but also the welfare of every single iOS developer.

I have said it right from the start, and I continue to stand by these words. Epic cannot win its legal fight with Apple. Customers don’t care about a 30% fee they will never see, and they don’t actually dislike closed, sandboxed app ecosystems. Antitrust arguments against Apple are not going to hold up to scrutiny (not in the US at least), and I suspect that ATT is in part a Plan B to sabotage the viability of third party app stores should they ever become a reality on iOS.

Epic’s reckless gamble has been bad for the app economy.

 

[Maximara]

why would they? If developers aren't paying for it, then they don't have a right to extra services. If developers find better services with competing platforms, then apple would have to provide superior service to incentivize developers to stay on their platform.

Developers already have that option - it's called Android. As I said before Android is only one year younger than iOS and yet in North America IOS became the dominate OS of choice. People wanted the closed system - the gated community and a vocal minority want to take away that choice.

 

[AppliedMicro]

No Epic wants one store on all devices be they desktop, mobile, and even console and then charge any developers a commission. As I said a monopolist's wet dream come true.

I don't think the claim that there should be just "one" (his company's own) is supported by Sweeney's statement

"What the world really needs now is a single store that works with all platforms"

 

[AppliedMicro]

People wanted the closed system - the gated community and a vocal minority want to take away that choice.

No. They want to leave that choice - but allow users the choice to selectively override it as a(n additional) choice

Your example with the gated community is quite fitting. What you're claiming is basically this:

"I chose to live in a gated community.
My gated community should never, ever, ever under any circumstances allow non-residents in.
Once you allow (selective) access to non-residents, you're taking my choice away from me"

? Probably most people in gated communities want to selectively "override" that access restriction. To invite non-resident family members, work colleagues, friends from out of town, etc.

So what if there just two or three companies that provide the entire housing stock in your market and have divided the market between themselves? What if the housing company that serves the sizeable upper end of the market of higher-quality housing enforces a strict policy - or charges high, anticompetitive access fees?

I, for one, don't want to live in such a dystopian society, where one of two housing stock providers has such a strict policy. I'd call for and be all for government regulation.

The people that feel more secure to never, ever allow any guests or third parties in, are (and should be!) still free to enforce that access restriction at their own house and front door.

 

[Maximara]

Which was completely different from what Epic claimed to be trying to do when they initially sued only Apple.

Epic Games is suing Apple

Epic has filed a civil antitrust lawsuit following Apple’s removal of Fortnite from the App Store.

www.theverge.com

Initially, Epic’s stance was that it’s unfair that Apple required developers to use its payment methods, giving Apple 30% of all IAP (which is precisely what Epic is doing with their own store, albeit at a lower percentage).

Epic was also claiming Google was doing the same thing at the same time. That is right Epic was also claiming Google was a monopoly while suing Apple even though Android is an open system. So on one side of their mouth Epic was saying Apple was monopoly in the smartphone business and with the other side claiming Google was was monopoly in the smartphone business. Epic wasn't claiming there was a duopoly but that Apple and Google were a monopoly in the same market at the same time.

Some time later we saw that Epic's Google filing amounted to 'Elvis is alive and leads the aliens who fly the black heicopters filed with Men in Black who are going to make me disappear unless I keep wearing this tinfoil hat' insanity. As if the above wasn't proof enough.

Google's counter claim? Epic violated the Google Play Developer Distribution Agreement (ie contract) and we all know how well that turned out with Apple - Epic had to cough up $6,000,000 to Apple.

It’s only after losing the lawsuit did Tim Sweeney suddenly do an about-face and change tune and claim that now it’s all about having one unified App Store across all platforms. Anything to change the narrative that Epic is in this situation because of his reckless gamble that risked not only Fortnite, but also the welfare of every single iOS developer.

Except is it really a change of tune or a reveal of Epic's true goal? Epic has shown it is totally incompetent in setting up a digital shopping cart for buying applications something perfected years ago and there are even services to set it up for you even if you can't do programming. But then again what do you expect of a company what says there are two companies that are monopoly in the same market at the same time?

 

[PC_tech]

They probably wouldn’t, they would initially fire a warning shot. "If you're going to force us by law to allow sideloading/put a port of your choice on our phone/whatever, we will simply elect not to sell our device/service/whatever in your country/state." Then, the frothing at the mouth consumers (in the truest sense of the word) in that country/state who simply can't live without their Tik Tok viewing device will actually contact their lawmakers for once. The backlash should be sufficient that Apple won't actually have to halt sales in that region, but they need to follow through if pushed so that every country or state with idiot lawmakers wasting their time trying to make Apple more like competition that already exists doesn't get the bright idea to try and manipulate Apple. Apple needs to make it an unpopular idea to go after Apple for stupid changes forced by law so that it doesn't keep happening. The vast majority of Apple's users don't want this, governments do not need to be involved.

That you think Apple is going to be childish enough like you to do that, says all we need to know about your mentality ???

 

[PC_tech]

I don't think the claim that there should be just "one" (his company's own) is supported by Sweeney's statement

"What the world really needs now is a single store that works with all platforms"

And that’s the problem, there are several people claiming to know what his thoughts are as if they some fortune teller ???

 

[Maximara]

I don't think the claim that there should be just "one" (his company's own) is supported by Sweeney's statement

"What the world really needs now is a single store that works with all platforms"

You left out the important part: 'Epic's plan to clean up that confusion is to come up with a system enabling users "to buy software in one place, knowing that they'd have it on all devices and all platforms."' - PC Gamer

 

[PC_tech]

But you have to leave Target so if you want a different store why wouldn't you leave the iPhone

Stop with the stupid analogies

 

[huge_apple_fangirl]

And what’s the difference to you having no interest to jailbreak to you not wanting to klick the same jailbreak button apple provided? What if apple made an official jailbreak tool? Would that be more okey?

Sideloading is NOT jailbreaking. Jailbreaking disables Apple’s security features and makes you the admin. Sideloading, downloading Apps that aren’t in the App Stiore, can already be done with an Apple Developer Account (or even without one, but it’s very annoying).

 

[boss.king]

Except is it really a change of tune or a reveal of Epic's true goal? Epic has shown it is totally incompetent in setting up a digital shopping cart for buying applications something perfected years ago and there are even services to set it up for you even if you can't do programming. But then again what do you expect of a company what says there are two companies that are monopoly in the same market at the same time?

Did they use the word monopoly or is that your addition? I only ask because what you’re describing is a duopoly.

 

[PC_tech]

Opening up iOS = Google Web monopoly.

Umm….?

 

[AppliedMicro]

You left out the important part: 'Epic's plan to clean up that confusion is to come up with a system enabling users "to buy software in one place, knowing that they'd have it on all devices and all platforms."' - PC Gamer

Emphasis changed to mine.

"A system". Not "just one system".
"To buy software". Not "to buy all software".

That's the description of a cross-platform store.
Supposedly on that they're operating themselves.

It does not mean that they'd be the only (monopolist) such cross-platform store in operation.
Though it would certainly put market pressure on other, non-cross-platform stores.
It may ultimately benefit consumers.

If Apple started to operate the Apple App Store for Android OS™ tomorrow, I'd feel well inclined to buy my Android apps from Apple, rather than Google.

 

[PC_tech]

Apple should ask the judge to cancel their Spotify membership and see the experience and then cancel his Apple Music membership. I think actions in this case will speak louder than words.

The resent Spotify/ joe rogan vs. Neil Young gives you a glimpse of what’s to come.

People wishing to cancel their subscription are forced to call Spotify customer support as it’s app does not have that function.
Customer service is not responding .
The classic gym membership mentality .

This is what will happen to us all. Wanting to understand our expenses and what we spend on will require keeping track on all the “impulse purchases”, make us spend more money and have harder time tracking it and cancelling things.

What the hell does Rogan or Neil young have jack **** to do with canceling service? What is with the making up stuff to try to defend Apple? It’s gross ???

 

[Abazigal]

And that’s the problem, there are several people claiming to know what his thoughts are as if they some fortune teller

Well, it’s not like he actually admitted to it on social media.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1463639329725628418

 

[Maximara]

No. They want to leave that choice - but allow users the choice to selectively override it as a(n additional) choice

The gated community has the right to set rules and regulations. "Being a part of an HOA requires that you abide by the strict rules set by the homeowners. You, therefore, may be forced to adopt a new lifestyle. You might not get the opportunity to indulge in certain activities." - Gated Community and HOA Law

If the rules and regulations say you can't paint your house Pepto bismal pink - you can't hire a contractor to do it as an end run around those rules and regulations and say 'well I didn't physically paint Pepto bismal pink so you have to make an exception'.

You don't want to abide by the gated community's rules and regulations you go elsewhere - ie you go to Android. You do not get an "additional" choice within that gated community.