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I’m not saying that scenario would be the same as AT&T. I don’t care about AT&T actually. But I am asking if there’s any amount of market share Apple could have of the smartphone market, up to and including 100%, that would warrant regulations be applied to Apple.
Additional regulation, no. Regulation shouldn't be applied on a sliding scale, more success in a free market = more regulation. Consumer protection laws are necessary, forcing sideloading isn't. I think I'm okay with forcing alternate payment systems, provided Apple still gets it's commission.
 
Additional regulation, no. Regulation shouldn't be applied on a sliding scale, more success in a free market = more regulation. Consumer protection laws are necessary, forcing sideloading isn't. I think I'm okay with forcing alternate payment systems, provided Apple still gets it's commission.
Thank you for proving my point, vis a vis:

I’m sure that would be true for some Apple detractors. Some of us can view things objectively however. Similar to your statement, for folks subject to the Apple RDF, Apple could control 100% of the market and folks would still say, “we shouldn’t regulate Apple, people voted with their wallets, it’s not Apple’s fault everyone else quit, devs can create their own smartphone platform if they don’t like it.”

No claiming Apple had a 100% market share is off the wall which is why I put it a hypothetical strawman. It has no more logic that saying Epic is part of a some secret Chinese cabal to gather information on citizens around the world or some other insanity I have seen thrown about.

I rest my case. You had the gall to say that my statement that some would defend Apple’s current business practices, even if they had 100% of the smartphone market, an off the wall straw man. :rolleyes:
 
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Thank you for proving my point, vis a vis:





I rest my case. You had the gall to say that my statement that some would defend Apple’s current business practices, even if they had 100% of the smartphone market, an off the wall straw man. :rolleyes:
There is no point to prove. Blanket statements are a wonderful internet arguing tool.
 
Consumer protection laws are necessary, forcing sideloading isn't. I think I'm okay with forcing alternate payment systems, provided Apple still gets it's commission.
Apple get more than enough through hardware sales of their iPhones.

I think that if we're being honest, nobody here, at EPIC, the Dutch dating apps or whatever is clamouring for "alternate payment systems" if Apple can still arbitrarily stick their commission on top it.

Why do (some) developers want to choose or roll out their own payment and billing systems? To save money. And they won't save much money if Apple can still slap an 11% or 25% commission on top of non-App-Store transactions.

So what could stop Apple from doing just that? More regulation, more action from the competition authorities, more lawsuits - or ultimately, and most effectively, allowing sideloading.
 
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They can certainly buy a lot of companies—that’s actually where most of their innovations come from. But I doubt Nintendo is up for sale, let alone if Apple could afford the number they’d ask for, or if it would even be a smart purchase for a Apple to make in the first place.
That's fair. I'm a 40+ year old guy who grew up in Nintendo's heyday so I'm likely overvaluing the company in the gaming space. I know people love Mario, but I'm probably not *the* guy to ask about gaming. I see their market cap is ~$50B and that's less than Microsoft just spent, but I don't know if they're up for sale OR a good purchase. My larger point is just that it hurts that so much of the iOS gaming situation is about Free2Play games like Candy Crush and Farm Heroes. I know they make a ton of money, but that doesn't feel like the "Apple way". Apple has all these super capable Macs and the gaming situation is grim. I know Apple's never really cared about gaming, but maybe they should. It's a such a big business and them caring would make things better on these platforms we love.
 
You joke but honestly, the more I learn about Web OS and the team behind the Pre, the more I wish that they could have found a way to last. There are some many things that both iOS and Android do today that are fully stolen from them. And another competitor in the market never hurts.

To be clear, I don’t expect this to happen at all, but it’s fun to dream.

That was the most talented group of mobile software designers at the time. They were puttiing out awesome ideas and turning them into reality in no time. Rubenstein had the right people to make the best mobile OS there is but they shold have just outsourced the hardware to someone else.
 
I hope Apple withdraws from states that do this until their technologically inept dinosaur legislators are forced to backpedal due to public backlash. If sideloading were allowed, immediately every garbage company/institution will withdraw from the app store and force you to sideload their app as the only way to get it. It'll be like when Netflix, a single beautiful cable TV replacement, was cut up into 100 individual annoying services because a bunch of companies got greedy.
So is Apple going to ban sales of their devices in every single country in the world when a government decides to pass regulations that limits how Apple can do business? If Apple followed your advice they would go bankrupt and might even trigger anti trust regulations with that type of behavior that would certainly require Apple to be broken up.
 
like many non-tech personals they just don't have the ability to grasp Apple vision of a secure, privacy robust technological future.
The problem is the Apple App Store has malicious applications that pass thru their so called inspection process before an application is approved. Here is a link to an online article talking about some of these apps. https://www.techradar.com/news/apple-app-store-is-apparently-still-littered-with-malicious-apps

The biggest issue I believe lawmakers have is the fact Apple has a monopoly on how applications can be installed on iOS/iPadOS devices which harms both consumers/developer's, since Apple can charge what they want and can dicatate what types of applications you may use on the device you purchased with no alternative means to install them. The simple soultion would be Apple to allow users to side load applications on the devices and the users would have to manually enable this option with warnings about this being a potential security risk.
 
If apple does allow sideloading they should make it a switch thats off by default and by enabling sideloading you are voiding your warranty
That would be illegal since Apple can not refuse to fix a charger port under warranty due to the fact I side loaded an application on my phone that had nothing to do with the physical failure of the charge port. Apple would have a very high bar to tie the failure to the side loaded app.
 
That risk should also include a null and void warranty. You can't go around installing any old potentially harmful software on your phone whilst also expecting to turn up at an Apple Store expecting someone to fix it.
That would be illegal in the United States since the magnuson moss warranty act puts the onus of proof on Apple that the damage was 100% caused by side loading and nothing else could have caused that issue. The can not just ban your warranty just for installing an application since Apple devices do occasionally fail without side loading.
 
What is considered a "high fee"? What would be considered a "fair" fee? And who decides? Does anyone really know what the actual costs to Apple are to support all of the apps in the App Store? There are many developers that are involved in updating iOS and revising Xcode.
The fees should be determined by the free market which Apple is actively blocking by forcing installation thru the Apple App store with no alternative ways to install. When side loading is allowed corporations/developers can decide if the Apple App stores fees are worth paying or go their own way by having users side load their application. If too many corporations/developers leave the Apple App store that would force Apple to lower their fees to a point where corporations/developers believe the cost is fair and benefits their application.
 
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Apple get more than enough through hardware sales of their iPhones.

I think that if we're being honest, nobody here, at EPIC, the Dutch dating apps or whatever is clamouring for "alternate payment systems" if Apple can still arbitrarily stick their commission on top it.

Why do (some) developers want to choose or roll out their own payment and billing systems? To save money. And they won't save much money if Apple can still slap an 11% or 25% commission on top of non-App-Store transactions.

So what could stop Apple from doing just that? More regulation, more action from the competition authorities, more lawsuits - or ultimately, and most effectively, allowing sideloading.
If a dev wanted to "save money" on some commercial app (that is not limited to some hardware on the iphone), they could certainly use a website and avoid all of this.
 
After reading these posts, some quite comical (or nonsensical), I took a look at where I get my software.

Android (main phone) - most comes from sideloading; F-Droid, Aurora, and a couple of others. Very little from the Play Store. Lots of great apps Google doesn’t allow for a variety of reasons.
iOS - most comes from my employers store. I have a dev account so I could go that way. The rest from the App Store though I have bought pretty much nothing in quite a while. Used to JB a lot to get apps and functions you couldn’t from Apple.
Linux - get stuff for that all over the place.
MacOS - Get pretty much nada of the OS Store. Usually online stores or direct from owning company site.
Windows - Get this from all over the place. Including work via employee purchase program.

Based on this I fail to see why iOS has to be different and far more constricting. Side loading would be a good thing in my view.

JMO YOMV

Update for spelling. Spell check on my IPP11 is at times whacked.
 
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The ones crying about it here feel their choice is being taken away if Apple is forced, we know that’s a false narrative, since clearly more options benefit users.
The sad part is the one who are crying about their choices being taken away, are not having their choices taken away. If they do not want to side load you leave the option disabled and continue to use the Apple App Store. Nothing has changed about how they choose to use their Apple products.
 
So is Apple going to ban sales of their devices in every single country in the world when a government decides to pass regulations that limits how Apple can do business? If Apple followed your advice they would go bankrupt and might even trigger anti trust regulations with that type of behavior that would certainly require Apple to be broken up.
They probably wouldn’t, they would initially fire a warning shot. "If you're going to force us by law to allow sideloading/put a port of your choice on our phone/whatever, we will simply elect not to sell our device/service/whatever in your country/state." Then, the frothing at the mouth consumers (in the truest sense of the word) in that country/state who simply can't live without their Tik Tok viewing device will actually contact their lawmakers for once. The backlash should be sufficient that Apple won't actually have to halt sales in that region, but they need to follow through if pushed so that every country or state with idiot lawmakers wasting their time trying to make Apple more like competition that already exists doesn't get the bright idea to try and manipulate Apple. Apple needs to make it an unpopular idea to go after Apple for stupid changes forced by law so that it doesn't keep happening. The vast majority of Apple's users don't want this, governments do not need to be involved.
 
The sad part is the one who are crying about their choices being taken away, are not having their choices taken away. If they do not want to side load you leave the option disabled and continue to use the Apple App Store. Nothing has changed about how they choose to use their Apple products.

Until an app stops being available in the App Store and needs to be downloaded from a third party App Store where it may presumably not be subject to the same oversight. We would, amongst other things, lose the ability to track subscriptions, ATT, and Sign In with Apple.

A limitation that can be circumvented by simply flicking a switch is no limitation at all.

Or have we already forgotten the stunt Epic initially pulled on the Google play store with their Fortnite app?
 
Until an app stops being available in the App Store and needs to be downloaded from a third party App Store where it may presumably not be subject to the same oversight. We would, amongst other things, lose the ability to track subscriptions, ATT, and Sign In with Apple.

A limitation that can be circumvented by simply flicking a switch is no limitation at all.

Or have we already forgotten the stunt Epic initially pulled on the Google play store with their Fortnite app?
Epic’s stunt did not last long due to consumers voting with their wallet and not using their side loaded application. At the end of the day consumers should have a choice on how they can install applications on iPhones/iPads. Not to mention with side loading you could even install Microsoft Cloud Gamming application natively which Apple is currently blocking from being in their app store. Application side loading has it pros and cons but at the end of the day it is up to the user how they want to install the applications on their device not Apple.
 
Epic’s stunt did not last long due to consumers voting with their wallet and not using their side loaded application. At the end of the day consumers should have a choice on how they can install applications on iPhones/iPads. Not to mention with side loading you could even install Microsoft Cloud Gamming application natively which Apple is currently blocking from being in their app store. Application side loading has it pros and cons but at the end of the day it is up to the user how they want to install the applications on their device not Apple.

The point is that Epic could even pull such a stunt on android in the first place. On iOS, Fortnite was available on day 1 to users, no fuss, precisely because of Epic’s inability to circumvent the App Store in any manner.

At the end of the day, I care less about choice or openness as much as I care about whether that results in a better experience for me as the end user.
 
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