Epic vs. Apple Takes a Twist As 35 US States and Department of Justice Weigh in to Back 'Fortnite' Maker

[Maximara]

Exactly they don’t give a $%#!* for customers and devs, it’s all just about money by anticompetitive behavior, and now they has been caught in flagrante.

If you are talking about Apple not they haven't "in flagrante" (sic) (its actually In flagrante delicto) as the only thing the California court could find was incipient to state law.

That means if you got a ticket for speeding in 35 MPH and could prove, thanks to the car's on board computer, you were driving 33 MPH the judge still rules that you were speeding because it was incipient to speeding. For those of you who think this is a straw man there is something that is effectively the same thing - Civil forfeiture.

"Civil forfeiture allows police to seize — and then keep or sell — any property they allege is involved in a crime. Owners need not ever be arrested or convicted of a crime for their cash, cars, or even real estate to be taken away permanently by the government." - ALCU

Steve Lehto (an actual lawyer) has some examples among his videos of other "fun" things.

 

[Maximara]

We already have a big movement about that. It’s known as right to repair movement pushing bills in almost every state.'

What wasn't the question. The question was where were the AGs and why haven't they wrote letters in support of Kytch? Also how many states have actually passed Right to Repair? Heck, where is the Federal Right to Repair that was being looked at back in Aug 2020? At best I hear Macbeth's idiot tale - a poor player that struts and frets its hour upon the stage and then is heard no more, at first full of sound and fury but in the end signifying nothing.

I got one better where is the law protecting people from willy nilly Civil forfeiture? I again hear only crickets.

 

[Maximara]

Hopefully the appeals goes apples way and the pending legislation dies. I’m a big believer in vote with your dollars and hope this is where it is heading.

So far the legislation to force such side loading has either spectacularly failed (North Dakota), got passed over because its supporters knew it would fail (Arizona), or is still in committee which sees at best 10% of bills go on to actually being voted. So far side loading laws been poor players that struts and frets its hour upon the stage and then is heard no more, at first full of sound and fury but in the end signifying nothing.

The only things that might go through is the EU's law but even the EC's Vice President considers it protectionism cloaked in the guise of "protecting the consumer".

 

[Maximara]

You’re correct sweeney didn’t whine and cry until after his ban

No Sweeney just tried to side step lawful contracts about how payment processing was to work by stealthily putting in code (or activating cold that was already there) in violation of those contracts. Somebody did the stealth code thing to get around the US Clean Air Act - 'can you say Volkswagen, neighbor?'

 

[Wildkraut]

If you are talking about Apple not they haven't "in flagrante" (sic) (its actually In flagrante delicto) as the only thing the California court could find was incipient to state law.

That means if you got a ticket for speeding in 35 MPH and could prove, thanks to the car's on board computer, you were driving 33 MPH the judge still rules that your were speeding because it was incipient to speeding. For those of you who think this is a straw man there is something that is effectively the same thing - Civil forfeiture.

"Civil forfeiture allows police to seize — and then keep or sell — any property they allege is involved in a crime. Owners need not ever be arrested or convicted of a crime for their cash, cars, or even real estate to be taken away permanently by the government." - ALCU

Steve Lehto (an actual lawyer) has some examples among his videos of other "fun" things.

Thanks, I know what it means, i speak multiple languages incl. Portuguese, Spanish and Italian.
And no, you don't always have to add "delicto" to in flagrante.

Wonderful laws you have there, good I'm in the EU.
There is only one U.S. law i would welcome here in the EU, it's the class action.

 

[Wildkraut]

My point exactly, which brings me back to my earlier argument that Apple is technically a monopoly of iOS devices even if they have sold only one iphone to date. It’s an argument that is never going to hold up in court. I am not arguing in favour of it, I am trying to show just how ludicrous it is.

That's a very tunneled point of view.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Thanks, I know what it means, i speak multiple languages incl. Portuguese, Spanish and Italian.
And no, you don't always have to add "delicto" to in flagrante.

Wonderful laws you have there, good I'm in the EU.
There is only one U.S. law i would welcome here in the EU, it's the class action.

why would you want American class action in EU? We already have that, plus laws preventing companies from excluding it in contracts

 

[Wildkraut]

why would you want American class action in EU? We already have that, plus laws preventing companies from excluding it in contracts

We don't have a class action like in the U.S., it's too limited and affected customers rarely benefits from it.
Usually a company gets fined and the fine goes to the government.

 

[Maximara]

Thanks, I know what it means, i speak multiple languages incl. Portuguese, Spanish and Italian.
And no, you don't always have to add "delicto" to in flagrante.

Wonderful laws you have there, good I'm in the EU.

I feel so sorry for you. /s I mean at least the US acknowledge Fair Use of pararama in copyright law - France still hasn't gotten that basic concept. As 10 Ways EU Copyright is Different from the US shows there are some key differences to keep in mind.

There is only one U.S. law i would welcome here in the EU, it's the class action.

Too many times class action is 'lawyers get windfall plaintiffs get some florins'

 

[Sophisticatednut]

We don't have a class action like in the U.S., it's too limited and affected customers rarely benefits from it.
Usually a company gets fined and the fine goes to the government.

Well its relatively new

 

[laptech]

Well its relatively new

I think companies such as Apple will be very worried about this because EU consumer protection is much much more stricter than that of the US. How this will apply to the app store I do not know.

 

[threesixty360]

Then let me explain, it's simple, Apple is now a monopoly or monopoly-like, and now it needs to share with others. It's too big and has too much influence. This is to the detriment of the population.

It's like copyright laws (well - as intended anyway) - you get your exclusive rights for 20, 25 years, then it needs to be considered public. If something experiences amazing success during that time, the creator and original holder will benefit greatly, but at some point, it is in the public interest to release their works into the wilds.

This is not to take anything from anyone, but the system was designed like this to both benfit society at large, and to give enough benefits to individuals to create new things. I think it's very much fair like that.

Of course in reality copyright law, like most other laws, have been made into a farce, where Disney extends its mickey mouse copyright forever and ever through various tricks and bribes, same for other big brands.

At this point Apple must be considered a quasi monopoly in phones - just like Microsoft once was (and still is in PC operating systems).

It is therefore in the interest of society at large to let other people build on top of the platform. 3rd party app stores are more or less a no brainer.

For example, if I want to create software that runs on people's phones, but the one company that makes half of all phones does not let me, but they also legally and technically prohibit me then that's anti-competitive behavior.

Take the example of Cydia - it is a working app store; why should Apple be allowed to use all sorts of technical tricks to lock them out? I don't think Apple needs to go out of its way to support them - but going out of their way to remove all competition when you are a monopoly is not acceptable.

That's like Microsoft wiping out the competition with Word, by adding intentional incompatibilities with 3rd party apps into the code.

But hasn't the judge declared Apple actually isn't a Monopoly?
And how does Apple fit into the definition of Monopoly?
And if Apple fits into a definition of Monopoly for software on a device and OS it makes itself, then how does any supplier of parts that augment it's own hardware manage to exist (Canon printers, Nintendo consoles etc..).

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I think companies such as Apple will be very worried about this because EU consumer protection is much much more stricter than that of the US. How this will apply to the app store I do not know.

Will apply as the law currently work. Now only consumer protection agencies or other institutions can have class action lawsuit. With this implementation it would allow a normal law firm to bring a class action across the member states.

If any of the laws currently covers the App Store then this will do it as well

 

[Sophisticatednut]

But hasn't the judge declared Apple actually isn't a Monopoly?
And how does Apple fit into the definition of Monopoly?
And if Apple fits into a definition of Monopoly for software on a device and OS it makes itself, then how does any supplier of parts that augment it's own hardware manage to exist (Canon printers, Nintendo consoles etc..).

Import difference is one only provide their own service, the other provide their services alongside third party providers in their system.

And still canon printers aren’t allowed to prevent aftermarket inc cartridges to be used in EU

 

[I7guy]

But hasn't the judge declared Apple actually isn't a Monopoly?
And how does Apple fit into the definition of Monopoly?
And if Apple fits into a definition of Monopoly for software on a device and OS it makes itself, then how does any supplier of parts that augment it's own hardware manage to exist (Canon printers, Nintendo consoles etc..).

Apple isn't a monopoly in the digital games space. It isn't a monopoly in any other space. The DCMA protects companies IP.

 

[vipergts2207]

I think it’s telling that all the complaints we have heard thus far are from larger developers. Not a squeak from consumers. Perhaps companies like epic and Spotify are well aware that consumers don’t really dislike closed apps ecosystems and this is all just one giant ploy to wrest control of Apple’s ecosystem away from them.

In short, it’s everything to do with enriching themselves and nothing to do with benefiting the end user at all.

Maybe it’s time the consumers who like the iOS App Store model for what it is stand up and tell these companies just what we think of their pitiful little rebellion.

Go for it, vote with your dollars. Apparently it’s hyper effective.

 

[I7guy]

Go for it, vote with your dollars. Apparently it’s hyper effective.

It's very effective, as Apple can vouch for.

 

[vipergts2207]

That key difference is why Kodak got ruled a monopoly. Funny thing no one has gone after McDonald's regarding their ice cream machines which are somewhat similar - A franchiser can only get a Taylor ice cream machine and until Kytch came along only Taylor authorized people (basically their own people) could repair the things. The lawsuit Kytch brought has showed some really shady crap.

Where were all the these AGs when Taylor was pulling that crap and why haven't wrote letters in support of Kytch given the 800 pages of internal emails and presentations that mention its approach to Kytch given they how Taylor
closely examined and sought to mimic specific Kytch features. The emails also show that at some points McDonald's, not Taylor, led the effort to prevent restaurants from adopting Kytch's gadgets.

Where is the outrage regarding the Taylor-McDonalds thing that is being thrown Apple? I hear only crickets.

Hmm, I expect somehow the McDonalds soft-serve machine market is far smaller and not all that important to most people’s lives versus a device they use every day of their lives. That’s just me though.

 

[vipergts2207]

What wasn't the question. The question was where were the AGs and why haven't they wrote letters in support of Kytch? Also how many states have actually passed Right to Repair? Heck, where is the Federal Right to Repair that was being looked at back in Aug 2020? At best I hear Macbeth's idiot tale - a poor player that struts and frets its hour upon the stage and then is heard no more, at first full of sound and fury but in the end signifying nothing.

I got one better where is the law protecting people from willy nilly Civil forfeiture? I again hear only crickets.

Your argument appears to be turning into one one of, “if you guys want to fix the issue with Apple, you have to fix everything else that’s wrong with the world first.” Nonsense.

 

[vipergts2207]

It's very effective, as Apple can vouch for.

Good, then Abazigal’s efforts should pay dividends.

 

[I7guy]

Good, then Abazigal’s efforts should pay dividends.

Sure, maybe.

 

[I7guy]

Your argument appears to be turning into one one of, “ if you guys want to fix the issue with Apple, you have to fix everything else that’s wrong with the world first.” Nonsense.

No. The argument is some have an opinion there are other things to be fixed first. Reality is what it is and this is what is being addressed by our elected officials. It doesn't mean, we the voters, have to be aboard.

 

[vipergts2207]

Sure, maybe.

Sounds like you have some doubts about the power of voting with your wallet.

 

[vipergts2207]

No. The argument is some have an opinion there are other things to be fixed first. Reality is what it is and this is what is being addressed by our elected officials. It doesn't mean, we the voters, have to be aboard.

I stand by my statement. Especially when we’re venturing into things as unrelated as civil asset forfeiture laws lol. “Look over here, not at the CEO behind the curtain.”

 

[I7guy]

Sounds like you have some doubts about the power of voting with your wallet.

Is there anything that is 100%? Voting with your $$$ is very effective as it sends a message, but is not absolute.