EU Antitrust Chief Warns Apple About App Store Fees and Safety Warnings

[1129846]

Yes. That’s what I think apples homework showed. In my opinion.

LOL. Sorry I can do nothing but laugh at that.

Apple homework makign that claim I am going to call a bold face LIE at bet. Big time as people have been screaming ofr side loading on Apple for years. At best Apple can show most users dont care or would not use it but saying most users dont want it at all on their phone is a bold fast lie.

Big time as if side loading is so scary for you then dont use it. It does not affect anything else.

 

[bcortens]

Yes. You should. Because they went from the top of the heap to nothing.

Apple spent time, money and effort to get the iPhone right and operate their business in a legal way in every location.

A fairly strong statement considering their being investigated in almost every location....

 

[I7guy]

LOL. Sorry I can do nothing but laugh at that.

Apple homework makign that claim I am going to call a bold face LIE at bet. Big time as people have been screaming ofr side loading on Apple for years. At best Apple can show most users dont care or would not use it but saying most users dont want it at all on their phone is a bold fast lie.

Big time as if side loading is so scary for you then dont use it. It does not affect anything else.

Yes. You have been extrapolating Macrumors side loading noise. With two billion iPhone users if a significant portion wanted additional functionality and made some noise about it; it would have happened.

And if you want sidelining there are other vendors that offer it.

 

[I7guy]

A fairly strong statement considering their being investigated in almost every location....

Being investigated is not the same as a finding. Ask epic.

 

[bcortens]

Being investigated is not the same as a finding. Ask epic.

I wasn't saying it was, however, you just categorically stated Apple is complying wth the law in all locations.
Apple just got slapped with a 2 billion Euro fine for violating existing laws around steering in the EU. That kind of casts doubt on the notion that they are operating perfectly correctly in all locations.

 

[I7guy]

I wasn't saying it was, however, you just categorically stated Apple is complying wth the law in all locations.
Apple just got slapped with a 2 billion Euro fine for violating existing laws around steering in the EU. That kind of casts doubt on the notion that they are operating perfectly correctly in all locations.

That has to pan out. They have been fined multiple times for various things across the world. At various times. That doesn’t mean their business model is inherently dodgy.

 

[1129846]

Yes. You have been extrapolating Macrumors side loading noise. With two billion iPhone users if a significant portion wanted additional functionality and made some noise about it; it would have happened.

Again you are confusing the statement of most people do not want side loading to be allowed on the phone at all vs people who want it added.

Apple is claiming most people dont even want the option of allowing side loading/ alternative app stores.
That is very different claim that most people dont care if it is there. Hence why I call Apple "homework" a complete and utter lie and twisting of words.

Please provide proof that most people dont want side loading to even be an option allowed. Apple has only shown that most people will not use side loading or alternative app stores. I buy that part. I dont buy the part most people dont want it to even be an option.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I disagree. I think they have.

Again. I believe apple knows what it’s customers want better than Mac rumors posters.

Customers want advertisement in the apps from Apple? They want integrity breaking device scanning?(thankfully they dropped it) Unable to use VPNs in their country?
Communicate unencrypted with android devices?

What does this have to do with apple knows what it’s customers want?

As you have a tendency to say “making it the same as android”, instead of saying the same as macOS.

Sure. But is that what the majority of its customers want? I mean laws could come out forcing apple to do that.

But if that’s what the majority wants won’t the market as you say essentially stay unchanged? Other stores will fail and the superior service Apple have will continue be the dominant one?

But what if the majority of customers don’t want it? What if they want iOS to be more like MacOS not needing the Macappstore or to use a WebKit browser Would they then not naturally stop using the AppStore, WebKit based browsers etc and go to what they think is better products and services?

Isn’t this fundamentally a good thing?

Well if we imagine an ideal scenario where the iPhone ether allow installing and purchasing of unverified( by Apple) apps with no commission or fee, or only the AppStore as the current statues quo. When a customer purchases their iPhone they get asked in the store or at setup( pick your favorite solution)

Customers gets the option ether deactivate side loading functionality and it will permanently have the AppStore, safari etc as the only option. Or it stays on the neutral default option as it is currently how MacOS works as well as developer fees on it.

The question must be neutral and impartial and it’s a permanent one time choice even if restored.

won’t everyone basically stay with the default if that’s what they want? Would you be against this idea as well?

 

[I7guy]

Again you are confusing the statement of most people do not want side loading to be allowed on the phone at all vs people who want it added.

Apple is claiming most people dont even want the option of allowing side loading/ alternative app stores.
That is very different claim that most people dont care if it is there. Hence why I call Apple "homework" a complete and utter lie and twisting of words.

Your are playing with words here.

Please provide proof that most people dont want side loading to even be an option allowed. Apple has only shown that most people will not use side loading or alternative app stores. I buy that part. I dont buy the part most people dont want it to even be an option.

No proof needed for opinions which I have liberally been annotating with phraseology such as “imo”, “I think” etc.

I do think in this context a want is a positiive. Don’t care or don’t want are negatives.

 

[webkit]

Yes. That’s what I think apples homework showed. In my opinion.

I doubt Apple's "homework" showed that people wouldn't want options to sideload, use alternative app stores, alternative payment options, alternative browser engines, etc. (allowing more choice and competition) if iOS remained a better experience than Android whether the user continues to use it the "old way" or tried new alternatives.

More likely, Apple's "homework" showed concern about revenue/profit risk to opening up iOS to things like more app access competition.

 

[I7guy]

I doubt Apple's "homework" showed that people wouldn't want options to sideload, use alternative app stores, alternative payment options, alternative browser engines, etc. (allowing more choice and competition) if iOS remained a better experience than Android whether the user continues to use it the "old way" or tried new alternatives.

We don’t know, which is why it’s “imo”. But again imo, if enough said yes and walked we’d have side loading.

More likely, Apple's "homework" showed concern about revenue/profit risk to opening up iOS to things like more app access competition.

More likely people didn’t register a positive “vote”.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Apple spent time, money and effort to get the iPhone right and operate their business in a legal way in every location.

In that regard Apple has no more, no less than anyone else that spent time and money to get whatever they do right.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

More likely people didn’t register a positive “vote”.

I guess in the next year or so will see if there is any change in the number of iPhone EU buyers due to the DMA.

Apple App Store has still a great leverage over other app distribution channels. They could simply not allow these Apps to run on the Vision Pro or connect to Apple Watch. Don’t think these devices fall under the regulation. Don’t think they should either as their presence in the open infrastructure is nowhere near massive at the moment.

 

[1129846]

Your are playing with words here.

No proof needed for opinions which I have liberally been annotating with phraseology such as “imo”, “I think” etc.

I do think in this context a want is a positiive. Don’t care or don’t want are negatives.

Btw love how you say I am playing with words but then you push it even farther trying to hide the I think so you can run and hide when pointed out your flaws.

So basically you are making stuff up and when caught dance around to admitting that.

You made the claim they did their home work got called out the fact that your argument doesn’t pass the smell test and now don’t want to admit it

Let be honest Apple did their homework that makes them the most money but not what is best for the consumers.

 

[I7guy]

Btw love how you say I am playing with words but then you push it even farther trying to hide the I think so you can run and hide when pointed out your flaws.

Opinions are now flaws?

So basically you are making stuff up and when caught dance around to admitting that.

I’m stating that imo if the majority wanted side loading it would be a part of the ecosystem.

You made the claim they did their home work got called out the fact that your argument doesn’t pass the smell test and now don’t want to admit it

That apple does their homework passes every sniff test.

Let be honest Apple did their homework that makes them the most money but not what is best for the consumers.

Ask blackberry about not doing their homework.

At this point you’re playing semantics.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I’m stating that imo if the majority wanted side loading it would be a part of the ecosystem.

That apple does their homework passes every sniff test.

How does Apple discern this? How can consumer show it?

How can you differentiate consumers wanting side loading and wanting a better camera?

Or that the new pink iPhone, with satellite SoS functionality is worth the downside of side loading not being a thing?

How does Apple know if a consumer bought the Samsung phone because it can be flipped in half and it’s worth the downside of side loading and not being forced to use the iOS AppStore?

How do they know the consumer didn’t buy it because of the new awesome Emojis and not because of the AppStore? Etc etc

 

[I7guy]

How does Apple discern this? How can consumer show it?

How can you differentiate consumers wanting side loading and wanting a better camera?

Or that the new pink iPhone, with satellite SoS functionality is worth the downside of side loading not being a thing?

How does Apple know if a consumer bought the Samsung phone because it can be flipped in half and it’s worth the downside of side loading and not being forced to use the iOS AppStore?

How do they know the consumer didn’t buy it because of the new awesome Emojis and not because of the AppStore? Etc etc

You would have to ask apple. I’m pretty sure they don’t go: “full steam ahead, damn the torpedos.” I’m pretty sure most companies that offer a service, have feedback as to where to proceed.

 

[Abazigal]

How does Apple discern this? How can consumer show it?

How can you differentiate consumers wanting side loading and wanting a better camera?

Or that the new pink iPhone, with satellite SoS functionality is worth the downside of side loading not being a thing?

How does Apple know if a consumer bought the Samsung phone because it can be flipped in half and it’s worth the downside of side loading and not being forced to use the iOS AppStore?

How do they know the consumer didn’t buy it because of the new awesome Emojis and not because of the AppStore? Etc etc

Because the number of active iPhone users continues to grow, indicating that more people are seeking out this integrated experience that Apple sells, rather than shun it. And the best part is - it wasn't so long ago that this exact same argument was constantly parroted as the key reason why Apple would fail, because the competition offered more "choice" for less money.

My counterpoint is - why are people so dead certain that sideloading is even something the majority of the iPhone's user base even wants, much less will benefit from, vs something that an incredibly small and vocal group of users here on Macrumours want to foist on everybody just for their own selfish desires?

There seems to be this growing narrative that Apple users are stuck or imprisoned in a massive walled garden, held captive by their Apple Watches and iMessage and AirPods. That only the government can protect us from Apple and they we are all just waiting for regulators to swoop down and smash open the walled garden and free us all.

People who buy an iPhone go on to buy an iPhone again and again and again. Apple is also attracting more android switchers to their platform, resulting in net growth of active users every year, so clearly they must be doing something right if they are able to lure users away despite lacking the very features and functionality that make Android uniquely android.

The way I see it, the people who believe this narrative are just setting themselves up for failure. For some inexplicable reason, I have observed that there is this group of people here who just want Apple to fail, and in the process, they have latched on to every single trend in technology and argued that it's the next big thing (the implication is that Apple is lagging behind by not hopping on obviously hare-brained schemes).

Arguing that Apple users are somehow being forced against their will to buy products like Apple Watches and AirPods is nothing more than looking for someone to blame for market failures when the problem is (more often than not) due to the competition possessing bad vision, inadequate corporate culture, and an overall lack of understanding as to what makes Apple unique.

And by parroting the same arguments made by these companies, these people are all just demonstrating that same lack of understanding about what makes Apple tick, or how Apple has been able to use their unique strengths to stand out from the competition. These recent antitrust headlines have made for juicy headlines capable of grabbing people’s attention, no doubt, but I am confident they won’t play a major role in Apple’s future. Apple is where it is today by saying “no” more than “yes", by remaining focused on making technology more personal, and by sticking with a design-led culture to push the user experience.

Through this, Apple is able to develop a dynamic, yet nimble, ecosystem of tools that people are willing to pay for. As such, I am reasonably optimistic that Apple will be able to wade through all these antitrust challenges (but present and future) and emerge relatively unscathed. I know it may not seem that way now with the DMA, but I have hope.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Because the number of active iPhone users continues to grow, indicating that more people are seeking out this integrated experience that Apple sells, rather than shun it. And the best part is - it wasn't so long ago that this exact same argument was constantly parroted as the key reason why Apple would fail, because the competition offered more "choice" for less money.

My counterpoint is - why are people so dead certain that sideloading is even something the majority of the iPhone's user base even wants, much less will benefit from, vs something that an incredibly small and vocal group of users here on Macrumours want to foist on everybody just for their own selfish desires?

There seems to be this growing narrative that Apple users are stuck or imprisoned in a massive walled garden, held captive by their Apple Watches and iMessage and AirPods. That only the government can protect us from Apple and they we are all just waiting for regulators to swoop down and smash open the walled garden and free us all.

People who buy an iPhone go on to buy an iPhone again and again and again. Apple is also attracting more android switchers to their platform, resulting in net growth of active users every year, so clearly they must be doing something right if they are able to lure users away despite lacking the very features and functionality that make Android uniquely android.

The way I see it, the people who believe this narrative are just setting themselves up for failure. For some inexplicable reason, I have observed that there is this group of people here who just want Apple to fail, and in the process, they have latched on to every single trend in technology and argued that it's the next big thing (the implication is that Apple is lagging behind by not hopping on obviously hare-brained schemes).

Arguing that Apple users are somehow being forced against their will to buy products like Apple Watches and AirPods is nothing more than looking for someone to blame for market failures when the problem is (more often than not) due to the competition possessing bad vision, inadequate corporate culture, and an overall lack of understanding as to what makes Apple unique.

And by parroting the same arguments made by these companies, these people are all just demonstrating that same lack of understanding about what makes Apple tick, or how Apple has been able to use their unique strengths to stand out from the competition. These recent antitrust headlines have made for juicy headlines capable of grabbing people’s attention, no doubt, but I am confident they won’t play a major role in Apple’s future. Apple is where it is today by saying “no” more than “yes", by remaining focused on making technology more personal, and by sticking with a design-led culture to push the user experience.

Through this, Apple is able to develop a dynamic, yet nimble, ecosystem of tools that people are willing to pay for. As such, I am reasonably optimistic that Apple will be able to wade through all these antitrust challenges (but present and future) and emerge relatively unscathed. I know it may not seem that way now with the DMA, but I have hope.

And just about nothing you wrote had with the question asked. People might liking the integrated experience, but its growth show something is liked, but not what that is and what’s missed.

People might love the Apple Watch, AirPods Pro, camera and iMessage but want the ability to sideload, and thinking iOS, safari and find my is meh.

And people might hate iMessage, safari but absolutely love the AppStore, iOS and faceid etc etc

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Because the number of active iPhone users continues to grow, indicating that more people are seeking out this integrated experience that Apple sells, rather than shun it.

I agree with you that people do not want Sideloading. Heck, most people don't even know what that is. Side of what? Are two restaurants side loading one another? Gaslighting story this side loading is ... a marketing gimmick.

With the DMA Apple can still offer their integrated experience has they do on the iPhone. Under the DMA users are able to get their digital services and apps not only from the gatekeeper digital goods and services retail store but also from other distribution channels, including other users self distribution means. They may also opt for other wireless payment services offered by other users and their platforms on whatever gatekeepers smartphone they choose to own. Users can still opt for the default gatekeeper only experience according to their smartphone of choice, from digital services and software to retail and payment, if that is what they seek as you so clearly believe it is so.

EU regulation on Gatekeeper platforms and tech is no different than what it does regarding any other technical and business field. The US has similar regulations for many technological and business fields, the exception has been the OS and end user device field probably.

I really don't understand what your problem is with the DMA. Apple can still offer a fully integrated experience on their devices. Integration between the App Store, Apple Watch, HomePods, iPhones, Apple TV, iMac, MacBooks ... iCloud, Continuity and so on with their software, and offer APIs for a price and have others do the same for Apple device users.

Cheers.

 

[MikeZTM]

If there are no options in context, nothing is an option. On top of this arguing in such context that something is the best option its a false argument. This phrase is a contradiction in terms, hence eternally false no matter the context.



Again you proceed with false dilemmas. You manufactured a scenario where for someone to have options, such as the ones under discussion, the user can no longer understand them. Which of course is not a representation of what happens in reality. When was the last time you went outside your pocket?

I respect your need not to have options on your iPhone. Just accept the defaults manufacturer as provided you and stick with it. How difficult is that? You can ignore the entire Settings page … maybe you should have the option to remove it entirely and throw away the key when setting up your device.

Look. In the EU open communication infrastructure (open regarding people access and supply of digital services, content and software at their discretion and according to the law) members with mass scale business and technical platforms need to conform with some regulations that aim to keep it just like that. That is all. It has proven to be a model that had created unimaginable wealth, it made possible the existence of Apple as an example. No company will be able to hack its openness to their profit trough any kind of device as well intentioned and innovative it might be at some point.

The EU does not seam inclined to implement models as the ones being implemented by China. For instance, making deals with specific companies like Apple, telling Apple which Apps they may or not have in the App Store, including, default Apps all for the give to be able to spy on their citizens in real time. It’s quite the contrary, neither govs or private companies should have such power over hundreds of millions of people and businesses.

Take for instance Amazon, a massive retail close system, yet at no cost, with a touch a button, users can choose a different retailer. Yes they also sell devices locked into their retail business, yet this part of their business it’s not yet at a scale of a Gatekeeper … if that comes they will need to comply with the DMA regulations as well if that isn’t the case.

So the DMA. Take it or leave it. Of course it can change as the problem domain is better understood with the help its members, including Apple. What the EU does not seam inclined to do, is to let companies build super massive closed platforms as part of their open Internet & General Communication infrastructure. That seams to be the kind of approach that more closed economies such as China seam to be more interested in. The Apple challenge of today in China, Tim Cook Apple, is that it’s not a Chinese company, otherwise its policies and marketing would fit like a glove in that region.

Cheers.

You are ignoring the fact that most people do not know which one is default due to DMA does not allow you to have a preferred option.
Apple is not one of your EU infrastructure old money natural monopoly corporation. It's an innovative tech company that built revolutionary device that changes people's life and brought it to those tech illiterate. DMA is forcing tech illiterate to stop using them by removing the only option that is tech illiterate friendly.

This regulation is illegal as hell and are hurting end user as a result. And when Apps force you to use a third-party store by leaving AppStore we will lose the current option we have. More option is not always better and forcing me to change my option by opening up a closed curated platform is an anti-consumer act.

You are saying that DMA did nothing to no nobody but if that's the case why EU burn so much money to pass such law? DMA is built to fine Apple and hurt Apple user in EU so that they will leave Apple platform.

They will never get a device that "just works" for them, and many will have to stop using smart device altogether especially the elders.

If you were in your 80s when DMA comes and now you got dozens of popups asking your choices, how will you keep using this iPhone?

 

[MikeZTM]

And just about nothing you wrote had with the question asked. People might liking the integrated experience, but its growth show something is liked, but not what that is and what’s missed.

People might love the Apple Watch, AirPods Pro, camera and iMessage but want the ability to sideload, and thinking iOS, safari and find my is meh.

And people might hate iMessage, safari but absolutely love the AppStore, iOS and faceid etc etc

This is a product by its whole. If you absolutely hate one part of it, don't buy it.
There's other options that you can choose.

I understand that you hate more of those other options but this is how product works. Unless you are Steve himself you cannot build something that 100% suit your requirements with nothing you hate in it.

Sideload is hurting the integrated experience for everyone. EPIC is already doing PR noise to put their popular games sideload only. If whatsapp is asking the same and pull off AppStore listing how can anyone stay with the integrated experience?

This is not "just adding another option". This is killing the current option by adding another option that do not benefit end user but greatly benefit large corporations.

Oh and goodbye to the current iOS security boundary which was set by Apple since 2007. A fully closed system is considered broken whenever there's a crack. You can never say "I want this crack for a feature". No crack should be allowed and all features have to be done in a way that do not crack the system. That's why it takes almost 10 yeas to have IME in iOS and why it takes more than 10 years to get third part JIT in iOS.

iPhone 2G can run JIT but it cannot run it securely so that any 3rd party app could use. Instead of building an insecure phone Apple wait until the phone is powerful enough to release this feature. If you open up iOS then this system is insecure as hell as you could imagine due to its security boundary was set at AppStore level instead of system level.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

This is a product by its whole. If you absolutely hate one part of it, don't buy it.
There's other options that you can choose.

I understand that you hate more of those other options but this is how product works. Unless you are Steve himself you cannot build something that 100% suit your requirements with nothing you hate in it.

Sideload is hurting the integrated experience for everyone. EPIC is already doing PR noise to put their popular games sideload only. If whatsapp is asking the same and pull off AppStore listing how can anyone stay with the integrated experience?

This is not "just adding another option". This is killing the current option by adding another option that do not benefit end user but greatly benefit large corporations.

Oh and goodbye to the current iOS security boundary which was set by Apple since 2007. A fully closed system is considered broken whenever there's a crack. You can never say "I want this crack for a feature". No crack should be allowed and all features have to be done in a way that do not crack the system. That's why it takes almost 10 yeas to have IME in iOS and why it takes more than 10 years to get third part JIT in iOS.

iPhone 2G can run JIT but it cannot run it securely so that any 3rd party app could use. Instead of building an insecure phone Apple wait until the phone is powerful enough to release this feature.

I don’t hate any part, I just dislike them as they are a major inconvenience. The other parts just happen to outweigh the negatives.

But I absolutely hate the AppStore ever since it was removed from the iTunes software and no ability to browse its content, it’s such a pain in the ass to find anything without googling some top 10 list or random reviews.

There no crack, this isn’t a jailbreak, it’s allowing people to install more than 3 apps, but without the need of a free developer account that doesn’t require the apps to reset after a week. The sandbox still exists intact, and jailbreaking would be made pointless.

How does the side loading function hurt the integrated experience? If WhatsApp leaves the store you can can always use another app, just how when Fortnite left you played another game. If you value the AppStore then something will take its place.

Apple just need to convince users and developers that using only the AppStore is the superior experience.

 

[MikeZTM]

I don’t hate any part, I just dislike them as they are a major inconvenience. The other parts just happen to outweigh the negatives.

But I absolutely hate the AppStore ever since it was removed from the iTunes software and no ability to browse its content, it’s such a pain in the ass to find anything without googling some top 10 list or random reviews.

There no crack, this isn’t a jailbreak, it’s allowing people to install more than 3 apps, but without the need of a free developer account that doesn’t require the apps to reset after a week. The sandbox still exists intact, and jailbreaking would be made pointless.

How does the side loading function hurt the integrated experience? If WhatsApp leaves the store you can can always use another app, just how when Fortnite left you played another game. If you value the AppStore then something will take its place.

Apple just need to convince users and developers that using only the AppStore is the superior experience.

Good luck asking all your family to move from Whatsapp.
This AppStore is benefiting end user from those large corporations.

And as you said, you can always install an app using developer tools.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Good luck asking all your family to move from Whatsapp.

Well good for you then that WhatsApp is forced by DMA to implement interoperability with other messaging services.

This AppStore is benefiting end user from those large corporations.

And as you said, you can always install an app using developer tools.

Yes.. 3 apps in total that works for 7 days before it must be reinstalled or stop working.

The single biggest benefactor is Apple themselves. Everyone, even small and big companies loose on it compared to Apple.

This regulation is illegal as hell and are hurting end user as a result.

What’s illegal about it?

And when Apps force you to use a third-party store by leaving AppStore we will lose the current option we have. More option is not always better and forcing me to change my option by opening up a closed curated platform is an anti-consumer act.

I do love the irony, but the apps don’t owe you access from the AppStore. If it’s a negative thing for you, then choose the apps only in the store.

You are saying that DMA did nothing to no nobody but if that's the case why EU burn so much money to pass such law? DMA is built to fine Apple and hurt Apple user in EU so that they will leave Apple platform.

Burning money? It’s doing exactly what’s the elected officials asked it to according to the founding principles of EU. How long do you think the EU takes to pass such laws compared to the U.S.?

The EU is what a small government looks like. Its budget is 1%~ of EU GDP

They will never get a device that "just works" for them, and many will have to stop using smart device altogether especially the elders.

If they can use android phones then they can use iPhones with a few extra features.

If you were in your 80s when DMA comes and now you got dozens of popups asking your choices, how will you keep using this iPhone?

Dozens? You mean two choices that are done once at start of curated options?