EU Competition Chief Tells Apple Not to Use Privacy as a Shield Against Competition

[DNichter]

I really don’t understand all the counter arguments.

Nobody will be forced to use alternative app stores so your data will not be compromised if you don’t use this option.

That what this all this is about. Giving users a choice. Just like you can basically buy every product out there in other stores at different priced and sales. Sometimes it seems people over here all have a large quantity of Apple stock. Cause all this is about profit. Nothing else.

People are dumb. They’ll be prompted to download something from an outside store and it will screw up their phone. Then they’ll blame Apple. I wouldn’t go this route just to avoid those headaches.

 

[Biro]

People are dumb. They’ll be prompted to download something from an outside store and it will screw up their phone. Then they’ll blame Apple. I wouldn’t go this route just to avoid those headaches.

The threat goes beyond this. Right now, there isn't that much malware targeting iOS and macOS - at least in relative terms compared with Android and Windows. That's because the Apple ecosystem is harder to crack and criminals are fundamentally lazy - which is why they are criminals. But if Apple is forced to allow side loading or the use of other app stores, we're going to see a lot more malware targeting the Apple ecosystem. That's because there will be more potential ways to get in. And much of it will get in. The politicians are either clueless or simply don't care. Many are going after tech firms out of vindictiveness. Many lack the intellectual sophistication to see the difference between, say, Apple and Facebook.

 

[DNichter]

The threat goes beyond this. Right now, there isn't that much malware targeting iOS and MacOS - at least in relative terms compared with Android and Windows. That's because Apple ecosystem is harder to crack and criminals are fundamentally lazy - which is why they are criminals. But if Apple is forced to allow side loading or the use of other app stores, we're going to see a lot more malware targeting the Apple ecosystem - because there will be more potential ways to get in. And much of it will get in. The politicians are either clueless or simply don't care. Many are going after tech firms out of vindictiveness and/or lack the intellectual sophistication to see the difference between, say, Apple and Facebook.

Agree with you here.

 

[jz0309]

People are dumb. They’ll be prompted to download something from an outside store and it will screw up their phone. Then they’ll blame Apple. I wouldn’t go this route just to avoid those headaches.

I agree 100% with what you're saying, except the "dumb" statement. People aren't "dumb", they are not educated, they do not want to be educated, nor, quite frankly should they need to be ... the vast majority of users want to use a phone like an appliance, you'll learn a few thing and then just use it, people have no idea how a refrigerator works internally ...
Yet most if not all of the "pro side loaders" claim they "know what they're doing" and it is everyone's responsibility to not just click on links and to understand how a phone actually works ... dangerous ...

 

[hot-gril]

These EU officials know nothing about tech, were raised in an android world and went into politics because they were unable to found a company.

They probably grew up with no tech or maybe even iOS, but it doesn't make a difference. These are the people who brought you cookie nags.

 

[hot-gril]

Someone sees pass Apple's veiled excuses for what it really is: an attempt to stiffle competition to it's Appstore. Most people won't bother with sideloading or alternative appstores, but let those who dare jump in with eyes wide open.

Standard practice for software problems is to do a factory reset, ie wipe all your data. Anyone who wants to sideload shouldn't come weeping to Apple to fix user error.

Those who dare can switch to Android as a perfectly viable alternative or even jailbreak if they want to live dangerously. I already jailbroke my iPhone to get around the carrier lock, which was a lot easier than I expected.

 

[One2Grift]

People are dumb. They’ll be prompted to download something from an outside store and it will screw up their phone. Then they’ll blame Apple. I wouldn’t go this route just to avoid those headaches.

As someone who deploys non standard comms functionality platforms for a wide number of users, we refer to it as the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid). You have to keep it simple and limit what users can do else a significant slice of them will not get how it works, get confused, stop using it because "it's broken", and generally put a lot more work on our support desk. Ironically, for what is open to mischief on our platforms, almost always its users who are engineers that will try to "fix" it or "make it better". It's sometimes a disaster waiting to happen.
I guess I shouldn't complain, it keeps me employed.

 

[Wildkraut]

The threat goes beyond this. Right now, there isn't that much malware targeting iOS and macOS - at least in relative terms compared with Android and Windows. That's because the Apple ecosystem is harder to crack and criminals are fundamentally lazy - which is why they are criminals. But if Apple is forced to allow side loading or the use of other app stores, we're going to see a lot more malware targeting the Apple ecosystem. That's because there will be more potential ways to get in. And much of it will get in. The politicians are either clueless or simply don't care. Many are going after tech firms out of vindictiveness. Many lack the intellectual sophistication to see the difference between, say, Apple and Facebook.

😂 Sorry, but then those people are badly in need of a legal custodian, and don’t deserve being left alone with a phone in their hands. I also hope their Apple Watch don’t stop saying “breathe, breathe, breathe” someday, else they’ll black out and need a reanimation.

I mean, my over 70y old mom, and my nearly 80y old half paralyzed dad(due to a stroke) manages to use their Androids, too. (where side loading is possible!) Their tech savvyness is bellow zero, and both never got any kind of malware.

All just an Apple storytale, wanting you to believe that security through obscurity B$. Of course you will get malware if you download every crap Chinese App you run over, just like currently with iOS too, but that’s why we have brains, using it doesn’t hurt nor wear it out.

 

[grandM]

😂 Sorry, but then those people are badly in need of a legal custodian, and don’t deserve being left alone with a phone in their hands. I also hope their Apple Watch don’t stop saying “breathe, breathe, breathe” someday, else they’ll black out and need a reanimation. I mean, my over 70y old mom, and my nearly 80y old half paralyzed dad(due to a stroke) manages to use their Androids, too. (where side loading is possible). Their tech savvyness is bellow zero, and both never got any kind of malware.

All just an Apple storytale, wanting you to believe that security through obscurity B$. Of course you will get malware if you download every crap Chinese App you run over, just like currently with iOS too, but that’s why we have brains, using it doesn’t hurt.

Given the amount of viruses on android and windows you will need a lot of custodians.

 

[Wildkraut]

Given the amount of viruses on android and windows you will need a lot of custodians.

That’s exactly what Apple think about their customers, but who knows maybe they are right. If it continues like that, soon the social status of using an Apple device will stand for like “I’m just a moron!” written on the forehead.

 

[Karma*Police]

I fail to see how sideloading apps will help consumers or make the app landscape more competitive. The App Store is already very vibrant and most apps are free or practically free. Seems like big govt doing big govt stuff.

 

[grandM]

That’s exactly what Apple think about their customers, but who knows maybe they are right. If it continues like that, soon the social status of using an Apple device will stand for like “I’m just a moron!” written on the forehead.

Hence implying that nearly all windows users the past decades were morons? Or wait. They deliberately infected their systems?

 

[One2Grift]

I fail to see how sideloading apps will help consumers or make the app landscape more competitive. The App Store is already very vibrant and most apps are free or practically free. Seems like big govt doing big govt stuff.

You fail to see because there isn't anything to see . The App Store is competitive. And while I wouldn't mind Apple taking a smaller cut (if that lowers app prices) Apple's cut is very much in the same as other App stores like Play and the games.
This is about trolls and angry-oddly entitled Android users/Apple haters pushing a non issue thinking it will hurt Apple. Good luck with that...

 

[ArtOfWarfare]

they’re actively trying to limit consumer’s choice

🤦‍♂️

This is like being offered a fork and a spoon and being told your choices have been limited because you only wanted a spoon. If you don't want the fork, you are free to ignore the fork. Being offered the fork, however, didn't limit your choices - it expanded them, whether you can appreciate it or not.

===

I find it fascinating that Apple has been so arrogant and stupid for years in this matter. Apple had 15 years to self-regulate and come up with a solution that made everyone happy. Instead, they've decided to do absolutely nothing and let the government come up with a solution that they and everyone else will now be forced to comply with.

I have to imagine there were some smart people - maybe the lawyers or something - saying that Apple was going to have to fix this sooner or later, and that the longer they let it drag on, the more likely it was that the government would be the one fixing it with regulations. Nobody wants external regulations... so you'd think Apple would have self-regulated and found some middle ground that would have made all parties happy. Instead, we'll get whatever solution the government makes (which will probably make everyone except maybe Apple happy.)

 

[One2Grift]

🤦‍♂️


I find it fascinating that Apple has been so arrogant and stupid for years in this matter. Apple had 15 years to self-regulate and come up with a solution that made everyone happy. Instead, they've decided to do absolutely nothing and let the government come up with a solution that they and everyone else will now be forced to comply with.

I have to imagine there were some smart people - maybe the lawyers or something - saying that Apple was going to have to fix this sooner or later, and that the longer they let it drag on, the more likely it was that the government would be the one fixing it with regulations. Nobody wants external regulations... so you'd think Apple would have self-regulated and found some middle ground that would have made all parties happy. Instead, we'll get whatever solution the government makes (which will probably make everyone except maybe Apple happy.)

As arrogant as a user who thinks they know what's best for what is likely the most successful consumer electronics company, maybe any company, in history that boasts a staggering number of millions of satisfied and returning customers? And because you don't like Apple and that dislike has been sated with several 'incredibly intelligent' politicians' conformational bias dog whistles, again you know what Apple should have done/be doing? You sure?

Here's what Apple has done: had two to three hundred billion dollars in Services revenue by, in part, creating an ecosystem/App Store that offers a huge number of free apps, a big number of paid apps, allowed itself and a big number of other companies/developers to make great profit(and employ a lot of people), while their smartphone customers have been very happy basically pretty much not needing to be concerned whatsoever with malicious software. And now added to that is reduction to a minimal data intrusion. See personally I think Google (and Facebook) have been massively and staggeringly arrogant. They have been gathering colossal amounts of personal data on almost everything you do on an Internet connected device(not named Linux or if Apple and defaults were not turned off), anything done in the analog world that can be connected back to what you do online, where you are, what you say etc. I think all the politicians should be demanding immediately! all privacy security options to be turned on by default. Yet we chalk your belief in what is arrogance and what I think is arrogance in the same bucket of 'not going to happen' won't we?

So while I appreciate you all coming to the rescue of Apple and us users, I (and I suspect almost all others) will take a hard pass on that assistance. Thanks anyway.

 

[Abazigal]

This is like being offered a fork and a spoon and being told your choices have been limited because you only wanted a spoon. If you don't want the fork, you are free to ignore the fork. Being offered the fork, however, didn't limit your choices - it expanded them, whether you can appreciate it or not.

I guess for me, it’s not so much that I am opposed to more choice, but that I don’t want to waste my time dealing with meaningless choices (for me).

To build on your analogy, instead of offering me the choice of a fork or a spoon for me to choose from, won’t it be better if said person instead took the time to learn my needs and preferences, decided that it made sense that I would prefer a fork to eat my noodles over a spoon, and just handed to me what I needed right away?

In this scenario, you are not giving me more of what I want. You are just giving me more issues that I need to contend with, and wasting my time by making me have to choose between a fork and a spoon.

And I think this really cuts through to what I like about Apple. Yes, they limit choice, but I appreciate that they are cognisant of the fact that they are offering their users fewer choices, and therefore go out of their way to ensure that those few choices are the best possible (possibly also because Apple has had more time to work on those few options), rather than split their energies dealing with so many different permutations.

Take for example unlocking your phone. The iphone has 2 (passcode + either Touch ID or Face ID). Vs Android which can have up to 5, and they all have problems (eg: neither fingerprint nor facial recognition on android phones seems to be as secure as they could have been, while pattern unlock is easy to discern).

So a choice of 2 vs 5 ways to unlock your phone sounds obvious. But if I were to offer you either 1 ultra-secure way of unlocking your phone vs 3-4 comparatively unsecured ways, the choice is less obvious because for the latter, I am not necessarily getting more of what I want (ie: better security).

Choice is not the key selling point here that I desire from my Apple products. Simplicity is.

I find it fascinating that Apple has been so arrogant and stupid for years in this matter. Apple had 15 years to self-regulate and come up with a solution that made everyone happy. Instead, they've decided to do absolutely nothing and let the government come up with a solution that they and everyone else will now be forced to comply with.

I disagree that reducing the app store’s 30% cut would have spared Apple a lot of trouble. My take is that Apple would have been lumped in with the other tech giants and targeted regardless of what its App Store cut is. Not to mention that nobody can really decide what a fair amount ought to be. How does one go about rationalising a 10% or 15% cut other than “it sounds right”? Just like how 30% seemed more than fair a decade ago.

Not to mention that the lawsuit was being waged by Spotify and Epic aren’t so much about the 30% cut as they are about Apple’s control over the App Store. So Apple could have been charging Spotify 0%, and Spotify would still have an axe to grind with Apple nonetheless, because Spotify desires more control over Apple hardware and iOS than what they are currently able to enjoy.

I personally do not think that it’s sound business strategy to base your long-term product strategy on what may or may not happen from a regulatory or legal perspective. You are just needlessly constraining and boxing yourself in with regards to what you would otherwise have been able to achieve.

Imagine if the Apple Watch had shipped with ECG just because Apple was afraid of attracting lawsuits from a misc company. How is that beneficial to me as the end user?

Rather, I support Apple continuing to do what it has always done - do what (Apple believes) is best for its users and ecosystem, even if it means leaning more in favour of the user at the expense of the developer from time to time.

And if and when there is pushback, then remain open to making adjustments to keep the scale in balance. Like what Apple did in reducing the cut to 15%.

Personally, as a consumer, I have no issues with how the App Store is being run. It’s telling that this is a fight between Apple and a few more influential developers, and it’s also telling that not once have the consumers been polled or interviewed on their preferences.

Because I can guarantee you that the majority of iOS users are not against the idea of a walled garden ecosystem.

This fight has never been about benefiting the end user.

I have to imagine there were some smart people - maybe the lawyers or something - saying that Apple was going to have to fix this sooner or later, and that the longer they let it drag on, the more likely it was that the government would be the one fixing it with regulations. Nobody wants external regulations... so you'd think Apple would have self-regulated and found some middle ground that would have made all parties happy. Instead, we'll get whatever solution the government makes (which will probably make everyone except maybe Apple happy.)

I suspect that Apple is fairly confident that the current antitrust bill in the US at least has close to zero chance of actually been passed in its current form, not least because of the gridlock that congress currently faces.

I am less confident about the EU, because the politicians to at least seem concerned about the outsized influence that the majority US tech giants have on the overall business landscape, and believe that it is in the best interests of their own industries to at least try to rein them in.

Either way, any ruling is likely still many years away, so for now, it’s still business as usual for Apple.

 

[falainber]

Governments just need to go F*** Off when it comes to this stuff.

What is "this stuff"? Does it include patents, trade marks etc? Or do you want the governments to protect those? Do the governments just have to do what Apple tells them to do?

 

[One2Grift]

I am less confident about the EU, because the politicians to at least seem concerned about the outsized influence that the majority US tech giants have on the overall business landscape, and believe that it is in the best interests of their own industries to at least try to rein them in.

Either way, any ruling is likely still many years away, so for now, it’s still business as usual for Apple.

I think that is a good point.
The EU 'reining them in' to a tangible degree will be a lot harder than it sounds. For better or worse Apple (and Google and <fill in the blank>) don't get to their lofty corporate heights without having a polished ability to sidestep regulation mazes and landmines. Any tangibly negative ruling for Apple or Big Tech will see appeals be as many as possible and lengthy as possible. In the interim they'll be working on implementing already formulated plan B or plan C etc that takes in any regulatory change.

The anti Apple crowd is planting their flag of 'get Apple!' hope into a house of cards. Good luck with that...

 

[macfacts]

In summary, apple might incorrectly get blamed by clueless users for trashing their iPhone.

 

[Krizoitz]

I really don’t understand all the counter arguments.

Nobody will be forced to use alternative app stores so your data will not be compromised if you don’t use this option.

That what this all this is about. Giving users a choice. Just like you can basically buy every product out there in other stores at different priced and sales. Sometimes it seems people over here all have a large quantity of Apple stock. Cause all this is about profit. Nothing else.

1. Yes, people will be forced to use alternative, less secure options because companies can and will given the option skip the Apple App Store. They’ll HAPPILY demand you side load or use their own App Store so they can:
- Avoid paying Apple any money
- Charge more themselves
- Track you and install tracking software that their apps “need”

OK, just don’t install those Apps you say. Except then there will be the ones that are required for thing like work, or using service like Google or Amazon everyone relies on now. Etc.
There will technically be a choice but it will be de facto no choice.

2. Users already HAVE a choice, iOS or Android, two different models for smartphone OS. One closed, the other open. One focused on privacy, security and ease of use, the other focused on configurability and customization. What you and others like you who want Apple to be forced to change are taking away that choice. You want us to only have one choice, the Android choice. You don’t seem to understand that many of us CHOOSE the iPhone specifically BECAUSE of the advantages it offers by having a single App Store with better security and privacy features. The same reason some people choose to live in cities vs choose to live in small towns. Or by a compact car vs an SUV Different tradeoffs. Different priorities.

If you want an open platform, great, no problem, Android is sitting right there, waiting for you. Happy to have you in fact with tons of phone options at a massive array of price points.
Meanwhile, let those of us who PREFER the Apple model keep that choice. We aren’t being duped or conned or tricked. We know what the advantages and disadvantages are. We made our choice based on our priorities and preferences just like you make yours. Stop trying to take away OUR choice.

 

[Abazigal]

I really don’t understand all the counter arguments.

Nobody will be forced to use alternative app stores so your data will not be compromised if you don’t use this option.

That what this all this is about. Giving users a choice. Just like you can basically buy every product out there in other stores at different priced and sales. Sometimes it seems people over here all have a large quantity of Apple stock. Cause all this is about profit. Nothing else.

Considering that your phone will also have sensitive data pertaining to your friends and colleagues, could one not argue that it is also in my interests that you do not side load anything on your device, if your phone contained information about me that I thought could potentially be compromised?

 

[makitango]

Let me understand. The EU telling a door lock company to not use their security features as a shield against the competition. Most rational common sense folks would see how ridiculous a comment that is. Apple Privacy a core value for consumers. A ridiculous position the EU taking.

You don‘t seem to understand the issue. Not Apple is the issue, it‘s iOS. Any app(lication) on iOS and both macOS needs system-level permission in order to access location data, contacts, photos, and more. This is the foundation of its privacy and security system, and it works. The base setting on macOS is to only allow installation from trusted and verified developers, and that is a steong additional security enforcement as well. In order to install (supposedly) scammy apps by unknown developers, you need to apply a lot of hassles and workarounds to put them on your system, and while on this way you are asked tenfold if you‘re sure you want to carry the consequences. Which, btw, still cannot include access to things like files, contacts, photos, camera/mic, and so on.

What is talked about here is iOS where Apple dictates even the nature of apps that are allowed into the App Store, which does lower competition and applies censorship only (bad actors which track you nevertheless you kindly „asked“ them not to are still there, and scammy and copycat apps too - they just have a review team that evidently fails to provide its suggested security and app developers need public attention in order to have them rightfully let their apps into the land of glory).
You cannot install apps that evidently provide you with more control and security where even the OS fails (Little Snitch), you can‘t install apps with what you can do both good and bad (torrenting; it‘s like forbidding to use knifes in the kitchen because you could use them to harm others) and you can‘t install apps that fall into the allowed categories that Apple enforces on you (such as encrypted messaging apps in human rights-abusing countries, or news apps which report about government violence or abuse).

Feel free to pinpoint this all to greed and third-party app stores, but Apple actually supports such abuse with this. People need tools like Little Snitch to make sure their traffic doesn‘t get sniffed and torrenting is decentralized so people may use this in addition to VPNs in Myanmar, for example.

 

[makitango]

Considering that your phone will also have sensitive data pertaining to your friends and colleagues, could one not argue that it is also in my interests that you do not side load anything on your device, if your phone contained information about me that I thought could potentially be compromised?

You‘re already doing that with every messenger app that accesses your contacts, such as Whatsapp. Since you can‘t (or won’t) MDM your friends‘ phones, all that data is accessible to third parties without you consenting to that. That is why Facebook has all our phone data no matter if we use Facebook and/or Whatsapp.

 

[Grey Area]

Considering that your phone will also have sensitive data pertaining to your friends and colleagues, could one not argue that it is also in my interests that you do not side load anything on your device, if your phone contained information about me that I thought could potentially be compromised?

I suppose that this argument could be made, though I think it opens up a whole can of worms.

On the user side, there is a whole bunch of decisions and activities that would come under scrutiny for jeopardizing other people's data. Should you be allowed to have a mere 4-digit passcode (or none at all)? Should you be allowed to lend your phone to anyone? Should you be allowed to take your phone to country X with its different IT-laws? Should you be allowed to use iCloud backups? Should you be allowed to use a phone without current security/OS updates (maybe you prefer the older OS, or the manufacturer stopped supporting that model)?

On the manufacturer side, should they be allowed to stop providing timely security fixes - ever?

Of course one could say that we cannot protect against everything, and that plugging some holes is better than plugging none. It is a bit suspicious though that Apple invests so much effort into keeping plugged this particular "hole" of sideloading, which has existed on other systems for years without disaster, and where it is so easy to identify strong financial and anti-competitive interests for not implementing sideloading.

 

[Wildkraut]

Hence implying that nearly all windows users the past decades were morons? Or wait. They deliberately infected their systems?

Well, in most of the cases, yes.
There were rarely malware viruses that made a user get it without their fault acting.
E.g. Blaster, LoveLetter was well made, but usually Windows users with a bad Antivirus and very questionable browsing practices was the ones that got em. And Antivirus is like a Airbag, it also won’t always safe you in a car crash, you still have to drive wisely.