EU Competition Chief Tells Apple Not to Use Privacy as a Shield Against Competition

[Wildkraut]

You just made the best plea for one apple governed App Store. Users don't have to be afraid. They are safe.

Afraid? My parents aren’t afraid, because I educated them to use the internet wisely, just like they educated me to not run blind through my life.

Do you really think the AppStore will save these peoples ass? If they don’t trap into a malware App they’ll trap into some other shady emails, or into something else. Better educate people to survive in the jungle, parenting adults or locking them in will lead to nowhere, it will just stupidify them even more.

Apple is just creating a wrong safety perception, and security through obscurity, and using privacy as a shield to continue acting anticompetitive.

The bad ones aren’t the malware Apps. It’s Apple who is becoming the bad guys with their malhardware and anticompetitive behavior. Good that the industry is slowly waking up, but sadly we will always have flat-earthers trying to distort the reality.

 

[Wildkraut]

That windows defender actually let ransomware through on my windows pc.

Then you need a bit of education how to use the internet wisely, there are nice training sessions for this, they don’t cost a fortune.

 

[KevinN206]

“the potential is there”

case close

I agree. No need for an App Store when PWA through Safari is just as good and even safer given Safari is pretty locked down.

 

[grandM]

You misunderstand me. If the developer is not verified and its app is not signed, it is already hard on macOS to get the app on your system.

So hard isn't it. But with Store Z who must verify and sign? Apple? That 99 USD may soon be 199 USD then.

 

[grandM]

Then you need a bit of education how to use the internet wisely, there are nice training sessions for this, they don’t cost a fortune.

lol ok. Did I mess up? Maybe. Should I have used a separate admin. Sure. But you want to inflict training on millions of users instead of letting a safe ecosystem be. And even if you are very careful there are still very wicked people out there who might invade you.

 

[makitango]

So hard isn't it. But with Store Z who must verify and sign? Apple? That 99 USD may soon be 199 USD then.

There is no reason to get cynical. I just pointed out that your average Joe would not be able to sideload apps like you say.
Apple does not need to invite 3rd party app stores into their own App Store, and people will not find said software unless they know exactly what they are looking for, and where.

 

[grandM]

Afraid? My parents aren’t afraid, because I educated them to use the internet wisely, just like they educated me to not run blind through my life.

Do you really think the AppStore will save these peoples ass? If they don’t trap into a malware App they’ll trap into some other shady emails, or into something else. Better educate people to survive in the jungle, parenting adults or locking them in will lead to nowhere, it will just stupidify them even more.

Apple is just creating a wrong safety perception, and security through obscurity, and using privacy as a shield to continue acting anticompetitive.

The bad ones aren’t the malware Apps. It’s Apple who is becoming the bad guys with their malhardware and anticompetitive behavior. Good that the industry is slowly waking up, but sadly we will always have flat-earthers trying to distort the reality.

You just claimed 'The bad ones aren’t the malware Apps.' WTF
As mail is concerned Apple now made sure tracking is no longer possible through mail. THANK YOU APPLE.

 

[KevinN206]

Sandboxing offers protection. However on a side load store thieves can create an app pretending to be your bank. Bye bye money.

Don't even need to that. It's far easier with social engineering through email. And these emails intentionally have wrong spelling and bad grammar to weed out the more discernable victims.

 

[grandM]

There is no reason to get cynical. I just pointed out that your average Joe would not be able to sideload apps like you say.
Apple does not need to invite 3rd party app stores into their own App Store, and people will not find said software unless they know exactly what they are looking for, and where.

The EU should not try to f.ck up an ecosystem aiming to get safer. EU officials are not even elected. The EU is full of anticompetitive measures. Members of local parliaments seat in board of directors of huge corporations granting them benefits. Let's deal with that first, shall we?

 

[grandM]

You don't get it. The moment the Epic Store launches it will drag along other companies. These companies will offer lower prices as the Epic Store can charge less. Why? It is owned by China. So China gets access to all that data. Furthermore China loves to replace apple by some Chinese brand.

And those devs on the App Store? Their turnover will decrease as there will be cheaper alternatives out there. Through an Epic Store or an internet download.

 

[Wildkraut]

Look at this congressman. He probably has no clue what a web app is. He could have known but he was so biased and pushing his agenda he interrupted Tim Cook every single time. That is an inquisition instead of a hearing.

That cook speech is like Gaddafi trying to explain why dictatorship does not insult liberty.
Cook is lying like there is no end, in Brasil we call these people, cara de pau(wood face).

 

[grandM]

That cook speech is like Gaddafi trying to explain why dictatorship does not insult liberty.
Cook is lying like there is no end, in Brasil we call these people, cara de pau(wood face).

The man was annoyed that politician didn't show him the courtesy of letting him finish a sentence.

 

[gregmancuso]

🤦‍♂️

This is like being offered a fork and a spoon and being told your choices have been limited because you only wanted a spoon. If you don't want the fork, you are free to ignore the fork. Being offered the fork, however, didn't limit your choices - it expanded them, whether you can appreciate it or not.

Only because you are (I assume) intentionally misstating the argument at hand. The choice referred to is not about the offer of an undesired utensil. To painfully extend your analogy -

Right now we have the choice of a platform that allows both forks and spoons (Android) and one that only allows spoons (Apple).

Many people purposely chose the device that actively blocks the use of forks. If we wanted the option of using forks we would have chosen the other option.

So forcing the option of forks on iOS does limit choice. We would no longer have an option free of forks.

And, no, my opting to ignore the forks does not mean anything in this argument. If forks (side loading or alternate stores) are forced then many apps will leave the App Store and force side loading. Mainly the unscrupulous ones - social media and template games come to mind. The ones that will no longer have any barriers to scanning your device for any and all information. And if your phone has information about me then my privacy and security are impacted regardless of my utensils settings.

And that does not even get into hidden key loggers or screen grabbers that open the door to risk of identify theft or real theft like access to banking information.

Nor will it prevent the possibility of reducing choice of apps for people who do not enable side loading or alt stores. Some app developers may opt to move away from the App Store which would eliminate my ability to use said app unless I do enable the “forks.”

 

[Wildkraut]

lol ok. Did I mess up? Maybe. Should I have used a separate admin. Sure. But you want to inflict training on millions of users instead of letting a safe ecosystem be. And even if you are very careful there are still very wicked people out there who might invade you.

Well, it was not 100% your fault!
Up to a version of Windows(Win2k/Vista?Forgot!), new user accounts was automatically set up as admin, but these days are long gone. Thats also one of the reasons why Unix/Linux always has been the king at security.
This is not something that has been achieved by Apple, it's simply the natural isolation of user accounts and the overall KISS and core philosophy of a Unix system that makes it saver.

Anyway, I'm not trying to put on a white vest on myself, but i always knew when i was doing shady stuff that could lead to some sort of bad side effects. The solution is very simple, just reflect your real life behaviour to your internet usage behaviour.
When I browse sites, I browse serious sites.
Many people search for e.g. their bank name on google and click on the link, instead of browsing directly to it through the address-bar, these people will get trapped someday the one or the other way..
Etc...

Just like I never went to any public shopping mall tombola, and wrote down my real name+address just to have the 1:10000000000 change of winning a car.
It's not rocket science, and knowing these stuff makes your life saver outside the web, too.

 

[grandM]

Well, it was not 100% your fault!
Up to a version of Windows(Win2k/Vista?Forgot!), new user accounts was automatically set as admin, but these days are long gone. Thats also one of the reasons why unix/linux always has been the king at security.
This is not something that has been achieved by Apple, it's simply the natural isolation of user accounts and the overall KISS and core philosophy of a unix system that makes it saver.

Anyway, I'm not trying to put on a white vest on myself, but i always knew when i was doing shady stuff that could lead to some sort of bad side effects. The solution is very simple, just reflect your real life behaviour to your internet usage behaviour.
When I browse sites, I browse serious sites.
Many people search for e.g. their bank name on google and click on the link, instead of browsing directly to it through the address-bar, these people will get trapped someday the one or the other way..
Etc....

Just like I never went to any public shopping mall tombola, and wrote down my real name+address just to have the 1:10000000000 change of winning a car.
It's not rocket science, and knowing these stuff makes your life saver outside the web, too.

And how many - now safe - users may end up downloading a dangerous app because they surfed to miKrosoft instead of microsoft, or even microsoftlegalsoftware.com? or appPle.com?

 

[genovelle]

Of course, why would anyone demand that Android should be closed? Doing so would hurt everyone except Google, and Google knows it is already on thin ice regarding monopolistic behavior. A step like that would take it even closer to a forced breakup.

Well it would help the poor saps that aren’t tech geniuses and don’t know that it is a pool of bad actors there. They are not running software protections and just want to use their device.

 

[Wildkraut]

You just claimed 'The bad ones aren’t the malware Apps.' WTF
As mail is concerned Apple now made sure tracking is no longer possible through mail. THANK YOU APPLE.

Yeah, and now Apple is the primary tracker.
It does not make it better to have your browsing behaviour all tracked and collected at one place!
Do you really believe they won't use your data to improve their marketing, products, services and make you even more dependent of their ecosystem? They just grabbed you by your nuts, someday you will realise this!

They will soon enter the adverting business, and this is just a preparation to shoulder away the competition.
They are a company, there is no "good" company!

 

[grandM]

Yeah, and now Apple is the primary tracker.
It does not make it better to have your browsing behaviour all tracked and collected at one place!
Do you really believe they won't use your data to improve their marketing, products, services and make you even more dependent of their ecosystem? They just grabbed you by your nuts, someday you will realise this!

They will soon enter the adverting business, and this is just a preparation to shoulder away the competition.
They are a company, there is no "good" company!

For their own products they anonymize data in segments. Google just sells it to any bidder.

 

[threesixty360]

The problem is politicians are in no way experts on any subject matter. They are generalists at best and rely on advice. How and who influences that advice is a really big problem. The concept of “lobbying” and how much money is involved in that is really problematic.

I can’t believe that anyone with any technical knowledge of software systems and design can say with a straight face that side loading apps with alternative App Stores does not create more security issues than to not have them. That’s is a ridiculous comment.


You could say that the additional security problems won’t be that much possibly but we can already see with android that they would be far more than Apple is willing to associate with their platform. That’s like factual data we can actually see. So for her to say that is utter madness.

so when a politician says something where they clearly are not an expert themselves and is so not correct you have to ask who is influencing her here? Or what is the EU’s overall political angle?

they seem to think that in order to have consumer choice you have to have an inherently insecure platform to do it. That’s not consumer choice is it? Consumers who want that made their choice for android already. I can’t believe a government can literally force insecurity on the whole industry in the name of consumer choice. That’s is mind blowing.

 

[Wildkraut]

For their own products they anonymize data in segments. Google just sells it to any bidder.

Can ou prove they anonymize it, and would you swear with your life they don’t? I wouldn’t!

Btw. Google does not sell your data, they use your data to improve their advertising, what they sell is advertising “slots” based on your data. But they are not stupid enough to give your data out of hands, your data is their gold.

 

[grandM]

Can ou prove they anonymize it, and would you swear with your life they don’t? I wouldn’t!

Btw. Google does not sell your data, they use your data to improve their advertising, what they sell is advertising “slots” based on your data. But they are not stupid enough to give your data out of hands, your data is their gold.

Yes and they are determined in getting it. You'd need several PhD's in security to slow them down on your own device. The EU ought to have this one checkbox on your device. Can anyone get your data? Yes/No.

GDPR? A big nuisance to surfers and small companies. The solution above is much easier and what the user wants.

 

[deevey]

Profits is Apple’s real reason, privacy is secondary.

So we're paying for privacy. And whats wrong with that exactly ?

 

[Smearbrick]

You don't get it. The moment the Epic Store launches it will drag along other companies. These companies will offer lower prices as the Epic Store can charge less. Why? It is owned by China. So China gets access to all that data. Furthermore China loves to replace apple by some Chinese brand.

And those devs on the App Store? Their turnover will decrease as there will be cheaper alternatives out there. Through an Epic Store or an internet download.

Capitalism, baby. Apple’s App Store practices are anti-competitive.

Consumers should be informed of the security risks, and left to their own devices (literally). Consumers should be allowed to use their devices as they see fit without the device manufacturer imposing restrictions.

 

[npmacuser5]

You don‘t seem to understand the issue. Not Apple is the issue, it‘s iOS. Any app(lication) on iOS and both macOS needs system-level permission in order to access location data, contacts, photos, and more. This is the foundation of its privacy and security system, and it works. The base setting on macOS is to only allow installation from trusted and verified developers, and that is a steong additional security enforcement as well. In order to install (supposedly) scammy apps by unknown developers, you need to apply a lot of hassles and workarounds to put them on your system, and while on this way you are asked tenfold if you‘re sure you want to carry the consequences. Which, btw, still cannot include access to things like files, contacts, photos, camera/mic, and so on.

What is talked about here is iOS where Apple dictates even the nature of apps that are allowed into the App Store, which does lower competition and applies censorship only (bad actors which track you nevertheless you kindly „asked“ them not to are still there, and scammy and copycat apps too - they just have a review team that evidently fails to provide its suggested security and app developers need public attention in order to have them rightfully let their apps into the land of glory).
You cannot install apps that evidently provide you with more control and security where even the OS fails (Little Snitch), you can‘t install apps with what you can do both good and bad (torrenting; it‘s like forbidding to use knifes in the kitchen because you could use them to harm others) and you can‘t install apps that fall into the allowed categories that Apple enforces on you (such as encrypted messaging apps in human rights-abusing countries, or news apps which report about government violence or abuse).

Feel free to pinpoint this all to greed and third-party app stores, but Apple actually supports such abuse with this. People need tools like Little Snitch to make sure their traffic doesn‘t get sniffed and torrenting is decentralized so people may use this in addition to VPNs in Myanmar, for example.

All well and good. Talking about competition. There are plenty of products that support Little Snitch if one needs or wants to use it. Not all developers or their apps need to be on Apple if they do not like the rules. Again plenty of other opportunities. Same with us, Apple does not provide what you want, purchase elsewhere. Massive competition out there. Pretty lame excuse to say Apple is hurting competition. My point.

 

[jz0309]

Exactly. I was going to scroll through this thread to see how many mindless, pro-Apple posts I can find. Just on the first page, the comments of the i-Zombies are out of control.

“Apple is God. The word of God is infallible.”

Please. Give consumers choice, and stop hiding behind privacy as a way to protect your bottom line.

well, the mindless posts still continue on this page ...