EU Consumer Group Summarizes How Apple Fails to Comply With DMA

[jlc1978]

The US is one country, whereas the EU is not.

And I agree with you and never said the US wasn't or the EU was; I just said they both share traits of a country and a union of sovereign states, even if one is a country and the other is not.

There is still a strong sense of nationality in Europe vs being an EU citizen; it will be interesting to see how the EU changes over time. Will people move more to feeling they are EU citizens that happen to be German, will national feelings result in further breakup of the EU a la Brexit, or will it simply continue in the current fashion.

It took the US a while for its citizens to identify closer with the US than their state, to the point where today most people consider themselves citizens of the US but residents of their state; the EU is not there, yet and may never be.

There are no real sovereign states in the US, but all countries in the EU are sovereign.

Except they are, which is why, for example, a person can be tried for the same crime at the state and federal level; and that's a real example of sovereignty.

Conversely, because an EU court can issue a ruling against a member state for failing to follow EU law are the member states not really sovereign?

Portugal, for example, can't say they don't like the DMA so companies do not have to comply with it there.

Even the EU says it has certain areas where it alone has the right to pass laws in certain areas:

In certain areas, the EU alone is able to pass laws. The role of member countries is limited to applying the law, unless the EU authorises them to adopt certain laws themselves.

In both cases there are limits to their sovereignty; just the structure under which they ceded some is different.

Ever heard of California, or Nevada team competing in the Olympics as a country, or a state?

Well, Guam, a US territory has its own team and competed, as does Puerto Rico.

Since you seem to think I could not pass a US citizenship test - where have I made a factual error as you seem to think I have about the US?

On a different topic:

People who see Apple Intelligence as just another feature truly don’t understand or value the benefits of deep integration. They don’t understand the value of privacy, or else they think they are smart enough to plug the holes the DMA pokes into iPhone. They should stick with the Android environment and leave Apple to innovate. Yes, the deep integration is innovation and provides value.

It will be interesting to see if Apple bifurcates there ecosystem by offering some features in one region and not the other due to various laws. If Apple doesn't offer some feature in the EU they would not have to open it up; an interesting question would be if you buy an iPhone in an area that has a feature and export it to one where it doesn't, how does, for example, the DMA apply.
Edit: Typo and clarification

 

[chmania]

And I agree with you and never said the US wasn't or the EU was; I just said they both share traits of a country and a union of sovereign states, even if one is a country and the other is not.

The people in the EU are citizens of their own country, and will not become citizens of a member country automatically.

Conversely, because an EU court can issue a ruling against a member state for failing to follow EU law are the member states not really sovereign?

If whatever the rule is agreed upon by all 27 countries.

Portugal, for example, can't say they don't like the DMA so companies do not have to comply with it there.

Once, all countries agreed, it stays that way for all.

Even the EU says it has certain areas where it alone has the right to pass laws in certain areas:

In certain areas, the EU alone is able to pass laws. The role of member countries is limited to applying the law, unless the EU authorises them to adopt certain laws themselves.

Even those "areas" are also agreed upon by all 27 countries.

Well, Guam, a US territory has its own team and competed, as does Puerto Rico.

They are more or less occupied areas. For example, "everyone born in Puerto Rico are US citizen but doesn't have full citizenship rights, such as the right to vote in US elections." They may vote in federal elections if they reside in one of the 50 states or Washington, DC. The same goes for other 4 unincorporated territory of the United States.

Since you seem to think I could not pass a US citizenship test - where have I made a factual error as you seem to think I have about the US?

If you know what the US is, you might.😏 That the US is one single sovereign country.

 

[MilaM]

Totally agree. The legislation is designed to strip apple of its profits.

I know, the dma is trying to dismantle apples vertical integration, while apple is trying hard to not turn the iOS ecosystem into a platform used for illegal and immoral purposes.

Apple can just kick out all third-party apps from the ecosystem. Then they would not have to deal with the pesky DMA and other antitrust rules. If they prefer to keep all the useful apps, they have to play buy the rules 🤷‍♂️.

 

[I7guy]

Apple can just kick out all third-party apps from the ecosystem.

Sure that’s a solution.

Then they would not have to deal with the pesky DMA and other antitrust rules.

Absolutely. And let the eu use android.

If they prefer to keep all the useful apps, they have to play buy the rules 🤷‍♂️.

Or alternatively don’t propagate new tech to the eu, such as ai.

 

[jlc1978]

Sometimes, equal treatment really does just mean that everybody is equally behind. I wonder how many people foresaw this eventuality even as they cheered on the DMA, not realising what it might potentially cost them in the long run.

True. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out; I suspect there will be collateral damage as a result.

Or alternatively don’t propagate new tech to the eu, such as ai.

It will be interesting to see if they do that long term or for other features as well.

Apple can just kick out all third-party apps from the ecosystem.

Probably not going to happen.

Then they would not have to deal with the pesky DMA and other antitrust rules. If they prefer to keep all the useful apps, they have to play buy the rules 🤷‍♂️.

Yeah, but they will find ways to make up for lost revenue from the EU through how they price in the EU; and possibly limiting some features to non-EU phones if they want to avoid issues with DMA compliance.

The people in the EU are citizens of their own country, and will not become citizens of a member country automatically.

Never said they did.

If whatever the rule is agreed upon by all 27 countries.

Which is an example of them giving up sovereign rights.

They are more or less occupied areas.

They are, however, free to leave. The Northern Mariana Islands chose to become a commonwealth rather than gain independence, for example.

For example, "everyone born in Puerto Rico are US citizen but doesn't have full citizenship rights, such as the right to vote in US elections." They may vote in federal elections if they reside in one of the 50 states or Washington, DC. The same goes for other 4 unincorporated territory of the United States.

It's a bit more complicated. First, there are more than 4 unincorporated territories; some of which, such as Puerto Rico, send a delegate to Congress but the delegate has limited voting abilities. The territory residents also don't pay federal income taxes.

The district has the same, except they get 3 votes in the electoral college so district residents get to vote for president; plus get to pay federal taxes. In addition, some territory residents are not automatically US citizens.

Interestingly, a German citizen living abroad, for example, may or may not be able to vote in EU or German elections.

If you know what the US is, you might.

Ok, point out a factual error I made.

😏 That the US is one single sovereign country.

Never said it wasn't, but that it is also made up up of a number of sovereign states as well, along with commonwealths, a district, and territories. For some reason you dislike the idea that even though the US is a country it also has characteristics of a union.

 

[MilaM]

Yeah, but they will find ways to make up for lost revenue from the EU through how they price in the EU; and possibly limiting some features to non-EU phones if they want to avoid issues with DMA compliance.

It's possible. But it's a risky strategy. They could make the hardware even more expensive at the cost of market share. What if as a result of that, more developers stop publishing apps in the app store? I would say that most of the value I get from an iPhone is because of third-party apps. It's a slippery slope.

 

[BaldiMac]

It's possible. But it's a risky strategy. They could make the hardware even more expensive at the cost of market share. What if as a result of that, more developers stop publishing apps in the app store? I would say that most of the value I get from an iPhone is because of third-party apps. It's a slippery slope.

Hah! "Most of the value?" I'd certainly rather have the hardware, OS, and first-party apps than third-party apps. Not sure what you'd do with the third-party apps without the hardware or OS.

 

[MilaM]

Hah! "Most of the value?" I'd certainly rather have the hardware, OS, and first-party apps than third-party apps. Not sure what you'd do with the third-party apps without the hardware or OS.

If I could not get my most used apps on iOS, I would have to switch to Android, probably.

 

[BaldiMac]

If I could not get my most used apps on iOS, I would have to switch to Android, probably.

Sure, but you would be MORE likely to switch to Android without the iPhone hardware and iOS.

 

[jlc1978]

It's possible. But it's a risky strategy. They could make the hardware even more expensive at the cost of market share. What if as a result of that, more developers stop publishing apps in the app store? I would say that most of the value I get from an iPhone is because of third-party apps. It's a slippery slope.

Oh, I agree, though a price needn't be too large since it would be spread over all EU users.

I suspect the real fight will be between the elephants where Apple gets the bulk of its App Store revenue. Apple isn't going to let EPIC or Spotify on their store for free, and they want unfettered access to Apple's App Store user base. If they really think they can go it alone they'll yank their apps and have their own store or d/l.

Apple could easily look at their data on d/ls, average yearly revenue, etc. and come up with a pricing scheme that is DMA compliant while keeping revenue numbers at pre-DMA levels.

 

[chmania]

I suspect the real fight will be between the elephants where Apple gets the bulk of its App Store revenue. Apple isn't going to let EPIC or Spotify on their store for free, and they want unfettered access to Apple's App Store user base.

Apple, iOS doesn't have a large user base, or even a significant one in Europe.

 

[surferfb]

Apple, iOS doesn't have a large user base, or even a significant one in Europe.

If Apple / iOS doesn’t have a significant user base in the EU, why on earth are they being regulated like a monopolist then?

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

If Apple / iOS doesn’t have a significant user base in the EU, why on earth are they being regulated like a monopolist then?

They have 31.48% of the mobile market in Europe, not sure about the EU separately, so it’s a significant share of the market here. It’s worth about $90B to Apple in annual revenue so not to be sniffed at.

 

[chmania]

If Apple / iOS doesn’t have a significant user base in the EU, why on earth are they being regulated like a monopolist then?

Even a small monopolist has to be regulated. 😏

 

[chmania]

They have 31.48% of the mobile market in Europe, not sure about the EU separately, so it’s a significant share of the market here. It’s worth about $90B to Apple in annual revenue so not to be sniffed at.

iOS has less than 26% in Europe, in some countries less than 16%. All told Android has more than 70% in Europe...in 2024.

 

[surferfb]

They have 31.48% of the mobile market in Europe, not sure about the EU separately, so it’s a significant share of the market here. It’s worth about $90B to Apple in annual revenue so not to be sniffed at.

The EU's actually significantly less than $90b - Apple's Europe includes all the non-EU European companies, the Middle East, Africa, and India.

But I know Europe is important market for Apple. I was more needling @chmania because he has spent countless threads insisting that the EU has to regulate Apple with a heavy hand because they're so important to the marketplace in Europe. And now they are claiming they don't have a significant user base.

Even a small monopolist has to be regulated. 😏

iOS has less than 26% in Europe, in some countries less than 16%. All told Android has more than 70% in Europe...in 2024

Apple isn't a monopolist, as you helpfully point out in your second post. Literally the opposite of one - according to you, they are insignificant in Europe. So I am VERY confused why you think a player with such a small "insignificant" market share needs to be regulated like the market leader. Shouldn't the EU be making it easier for Apple to compete?

 

[chmania]

But I know Europe is important market for Apple. I was more needling @chmania because he has spent countless threads insisting that the EU has to regulate Apple with a heavy hand because they're so important to the marketplace in Europe.

Who said Apple is more important to the EU market? Android is!
Samsung, Huawei, Oppo, Xiaomi etc, etc will also be regulated.

Apple isn't a monopolist,

Sure, it isn't, as everyone can make phones with iOS clones. 😏

 

[BaldiMac]

Sure, it isn't, as everyone can make phones with iOS clones. 😏

That you don't understand the difference between copyrights and a monopoly says a whole lot.

 

[chmania]

That you don't understand the difference between copyrights and a monopoly says a whole lot.

Copyright is a monopoly.

 

[BaldiMac]

Copyright is a monopoly.

One of those dishonest claims that is technically true, but has nothing at all to do with the conversation we are having.

 

[chmania]

One of those dishonest claims that is technically true, but has nothing at all to do with the conversation we are having.

That you don't understand the difference between copyrights and a monopoly says a whole lot.

So, you agree that Copyright is a monopoly!😊

 

[BaldiMac]

So, you agree!😊

No, I don't. Because we are discussing monopolies from a legal perspective. The fact that copyright gives a company control of its own IP has nothing at all to do with what we are talking about. It's nothing but dishonest word games.

 

[chmania]

No, I don't. Because we are discussing monopolies from a legal perspective. The fact that copyright gives a company control of its own IP has nothing at all to do with what we are talking about. It's nothing but dishonest word games.

It had already happened. The DMA is already on!

 

[cupcakes2000]

You keep saying things like this without any evidence that people are applying their own rules to the EU.

Just read any thread on the subject and you will clearly see.

Like this post in thread 'Apple to Allow iPad Users in EU to Download Apps From Third-Party App Stores From September 16', for example:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...tores-from-september-16.2436183/post-33392428

 

[God of Biscuits]

Apple isn’t famous for that since the passing of Jobs. Apple’s UIs have gotten steadily less easy to use and more Microsoft-like now that there isn’t a person at the top who knows what the products are supposed to do and cares enough to be an a$$hole about making sure everything “just works”. It doesn’t bode well for Apple in the long run. But for the short term, they are still coasting on inertia from Jobs. Once Cook is gone, Wall Street will run the corporation. The golden days are gone and the afterglow won’t last forever.

This is my point. Apple is continuing to claim it's the High Holy Temple of Ease of Use, but then it passes on the raw data of choice to the user in this case when they COULD make it easier. And SHOULD. But DON'T.

They're trying to have it both ways. And I disagree with your blanket statement. SJ was great at a lot of things, but he made **** choices, too. But he had a cult of personality protecting him from all of it, mostly outside of the company.