EU Consumer Group Summarizes How Apple Fails to Comply With DMA

[vantelimus]

You have simply very old information.

No, he is pointing out that the EU should compete. Let it subsidize its industries instead of defining the rules so that it can leech profit off of those who adapted to a changing marketplace and won.

Winning is a temporal thing in evolving markets, especially those driven by technological innovation. Nokia or some other company could come up with a brand new design or idea or ecosystem that makes Apple look like old turn-of-the-century technology. Samsung and Huawei aren’t backing down and asking their governments to redefine the rules. Google, the undisputed winner in the EU, isn’t backing down. They are moving ahead with bold technology innovations, like folding phones and AI integration. Apple could lose its pitiful 30% of the EU market in a year if Huawei’s tri-fold phone turns out to be a reliable product that captures people’s imagination.

Why has Europe failed so utterly when Nokia owned the market 20 years ago? Nokia was king in cell phones until it failed to compete with iPhone. Google didn’t stop. Google threw away years of work on their smart phone and started over so that it could compete when iPhone changed the marketplace completely. New companies entered the fray.

What the DMA is trying to do is specify a design that slows progress, destroys value, and games the market by chopping it up into small pieces. Sure you can argue that it is the EU’s freedom to do that. That doesn’t mean it is smart. And it doesn’t mean that Apple has to play along.

It is telling that Apple has more freedom to design its product and sell it in communist china that it has in the EU.

 

[chmania]

No, he is pointing out that the EU should compete. Let it subsidize its industries instead of defining the rules so that it can leech profit off of those who adapted to a changing marketplace and won.

Winning is a temporal thing in evolving markets, especially those driven by technological innovation. Nokia or some other company could come up with a brand new design or idea or ecosystem that makes Apple look like old turn-of-the-century technology. Samsung and Huawei aren’t backing down and asking their governments to redefine the rules. Google, the undisputed winner in the EU, isn’t backing down. They are moving ahead with bold technology innovations, like folding phones and AI integration. Apple could lose its pitiful 30% of the EU market in a year if Huawei’s tri-fold phone turns out to be a reliable product that captures people’s imagination.

Why has Europe failed so utterly when Nokia owned the market 20 years ago? Nokia was king in cell phones until it failed to compete with iPhone. Google didn’t stop. Google threw away years of work on their smart phone and started over so that it could compete when iPhone changed the marketplace completely. New companies entered the fray.

What the DMA is trying to do is specify a design that slows progress, destroys value, and games the market by chopping it up into small pieces. Sure you can argue that it is the EU’s freedom to do that. That doesn’t mean it is smart. And it doesn’t mean that Apple has to play along.

It is telling that Apple has more freedom to design its product and sell it in communist china that it has in the EU.

If you think that Europe is just one country like the US, you are mistaken!

 

[vantelimus]

If you think that Europe is just one country like the US, you are mistaken!

LOL. Straw man much? No where did I say that.

 

[Abazigal]

One thing's for sure - the next big thing will not come from the EU. Their legislation has seen to that.

It's no surprise that the majority of the tech giants targeted by the EU are US tech companies. Almost as though there is something about the US, for all the issues it faces, that encourages this sort of innovation.

The problem with EU legislation is that it (rightfully) targets businesses operating within its borders, and has no influence on what happens beyond its shores. Up till now, perhaps out of sheer laziness or convenience, companies have been content to apply EU legislation (like cookie banners) to every website all over the world. This means that I have to be subject to these pop-ups even though I don't reside in the EU, and I hate it.

I like what Apple is doing in creating a specific version of iOS specially catered to the EU, so users get exactly what is asked of the DMA, nothing more. They can have their third party app stores, their ability to delete the camera app (is this even something people were asking for?), the ability to select another browser (ironic if it just ends up entrenching Chrome's dominance) while the rest of the world gets their Apple Intelligence and their phone mirroring, and any further features that rely on tight integration between Apple products.

Which is precisely why we buy Apple hardware in the first place.

May the people in the EU get the iPhone they deserve.

 

[chmania]

The problem with EU legislation is that it (rightfully) targets businesses operating within its borders, and has no influence on what happens beyond its shores.

That's what it exactly is, within the EU. And, it is not a problem, within the EU. The DMA in the EU is just like the Certificate of Entitlement to own a car in Singapore. It works only in Singapore, but not outside its borders.

 

[cupcakes2000]

That's what it exactly is, within the EU. And, it is not a problem, within the EU. The DMA in the EU is just like the Certificate of Entitlement to own a car in Singapore. It works only in Singapore, but not outside its borders.

I wouldn't expect them to understand, if I were you. They just blanket apply their own country's rules, and therefore their own entrenched opinions to whatever other country or bloc is being spoken about. One may say its typical.

That said, those who agree with concepts like the DMA are also applying their own country's rules and therefore their own entrenched opinions.

The difference is the air of superiority coming across, intentionally or not, that is prevalent across these threads. The dominant discourse becomes 'my dad is bigger than your dad'.

It's really not about that, but on the internet anything becomes everything.

 

[chmania]

That said, those who agree with concepts like the DMA are also applying their own country's rules and therefore their own entrenched opinions.

Internet is nice, but amount of cookies most websites try to add into your computer, other their own is overwhelming. So, it is nice that one has the right to decline a few or all. Still, the web site works, as the web site owners want it to be read, to get through somehow to the eventual client. So, if I need a get back to a web site, I simply bookmark it so, I can open it when I want, not when they want. Also I won't give permission to practically all web sites, except those that work for me. After the EU regulations, my cookie count is very little. Like in the olden days, I still look at the amount of cookies my computer (or phone) might have, thinking that I have to clear all cookies. But, slowly that habit will go away.

I wouldn't expect them to understand, if I were you. They just blanket apply their own country's rules, and therefore their own entrenched opinions to whatever other country or bloc is being spoken about. One may say it's typical.

Yes, they won't understand. I am not expecting them to understand that, but, what I'd like them to understand is that all countries and regions have their own laws, and whoever who wants to do something in another country or region has to oblige by the rules and regulations of that country or region. For example, in Singapore, one can't chew gum, except medical gums. You can't even carry chewing gum there.

 

[Abazigal]

Yes, they won't understand. I am not expecting them to understand that, but, what I'd like them to understand is that all countries and regions have their own laws, and whoever who wants to do something in another country or region has to oblige by the rules and regulations of that country or region. For example, in Singapore, one can't chew gum, except medical gums. You can't even carry chewing gum there.

Which is not the point I was trying to make.

Something like Cookie banners is a EU-centric ruling, so why am I being bombarded with them even though I don't reside in the EU, and am accessing it outside of the EU? Precisely because the EU implemented said ruling, and the various website operators, in their laziness, decided to have it apply to everybody visiting their websites, instead of users whose IP addresses originate from within the EU. It's annoying, it doesn't really do anything to reduce the amount of tracking that happens across websites, and it's an example of EU legislation which while well-meaning, just ends up making web-browsing that much more irritating for everybody else else, regardless of whether they reside in the EU or not, for no real benefit.

Which is also why, as I was musing above, it has been fascinating to watch Apple effectively fork iOS for the EU. In this regard, I totally agree with you. Rules within the EU should stay within the EU, and we will see who ends up with the "better" iPhone in the end.

 

[chmania]

Something like Cookie banners is a EU-centric ruling, so why am I being bombarded with them even though I don't reside in the EU, and am accessing it outside of the EU? Precisely because the EU implemented said ruling, and the various website operators, in their laziness, decided to have it apply to everybody visiting their websites, instead of users whose IP addresses originate from within the EU.

Most probably, the web sites are taking steps not get fined in the future, one way or another.

Which is also why, as I was musing above, it has been fascinating to watch Apple effectively fork iOS for the EU. In this regard, I totally agree with you. Rules within the EU should stay within the EU, and we will see who ends up with the "better" iPhone in the end.

There's no "better" iPhone, is there? Considering the multitude of phones out there in the world...😊

 

[Abazigal]

There's no "better" iPhone, is there? Considering the multitude of phones out there in the world...😊

I am putting this in the context of "EU gets third party app stores and interchangeable apps, while everyone else gets Apple Intelligence, iPhone mirroring, and possibly any other features in the future that work off integration between apple devices.

You all want the benefits of modularity, it means dealing down the downsides of no integration (the very thing that made Apple so successful) as well.

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

Which is also why, as I was musing above, it has been fascinating to watch Apple effectively fork iOS for the EU. In this regard, I totally agree with you. Rules within the EU should stay within the EU, and we will see who ends up with the "better" iPhone in the end.

Good luck with that.

 

[chmania]

I am putting this in the context of "EU gets third party app stores and interchangeable apps, while everyone else gets Apple Intelligence, iPhone mirroring, and possibly any other features in the future that work off integration between apple devices.

It depends. Not everyone needs Apple Intelligence, iPhone mirroring. Not everyone who has an iPhone use a Mac. Even if you have an older iPhone, you can still use other AI on Safari, such as,

(in the bookmark tab)
I have that in both, iPhone and MBP. I have them in Android phone, tablet and Windows too. 👍

 

[JapanApple]

Rules within the EU should stay within the EU, and we will see who ends up with the "better" iPhone

Agreed. One law doesn't always fit all situations or countries

 

[Abazigal]

It depends. Not everyone needs Apple Intelligence, iPhone mirroring. Not everyone who has an iPhone use a Mac. Even if you have an older iPhone, you can still use other AI on Safari, such as,
View attachment 2413948 (in the bookmark tab)
I have that in both, iPhone and MBP. I have them in Android phone, tablet and Windows too. 👍

An app you have to manually activate is going to have a hard time matching a feature that's integrated at the OS level. Just saying. That's what I mean when I say you are trading integration for modularity.

 

[chmania]

An app you have to manually activate is going to have a hard time matching a feature that's integrated at the OS level. Just saying. That's what I mean when I say you are trading integration for modularity.

It is not an app as such, but a tab in Safari, (or another browser). The "integrated at the OS level" sounds quite dangerous, like Windows Recall.😏

 

[MilaM]

An app you have to manually activate is going to have a hard time matching a feature that's integrated at the OS level. Just saying. That's what I mean when I say you are trading integration for modularity.

Apple intelligence is just another feature and not some kind of magic fairy dust. It's database (likely the already existing Siri database, look into your settings), some UI code, and a daemon that processes your request. There is technically no reason why a competing AI app could not replicate 99% of what Apple will be doing in iOS 18.

Why should a user not have the freedom to choose which AI solution they want? After all it's the user's data that is being processed. I'm not arguing that you should want that, but I think users should have a choice.

 

[Abazigal]

Why should a user not have the freedom to choose which AI solution they want? After all it's the user's data that is being processed. I'm not arguing that you should want that, but I think users should have a choice.

It would require system level access which Apple is not obligated to make available to third parties. Apple Intelligence is the best example, where Apple would rather just not make said feature available in a region than invest the extra effort to open up their system to all other third party apps and services.

Sometimes, equal treatment really does just mean that everybody is equally behind. I wonder how many people foresaw this eventuality even as they cheered on the DMA, not realising what it might potentially cost them in the long run.

 

[MilaM]

It would require system level access which Apple is not obligated to make available to third parties. Apple Intelligence is the best example, where Apple would rather just not make said feature available in a region than invest the extra effort to open up their system to all other third party apps and services.

Isn't it interesting, that Apple does not have to fear loosing ground in the market by withholding a pretty significant feature like AI? I think it's good evidence, how dominant iOS and Android have become through anticompetitive practices.

 

[surferfb]

Isn't it interesting, that Apple does not have to fear loosing ground in the market by withholding a pretty significant feature like AI? I think it's good evidence, how dominant iOS and Android have become through anticompetitive practices.

What makes you think they don’t fear losing ground in the market? I see it as “our choices are lose ground in the market, get fined 10-20% of our global revenue, or compromise our company ethos.” And they’re taking the market hit.

I mean, it’s certainly in Apple’s interest to sell as many iPhones as possible, and they will sell fewer in the EU because of the lack of Apple AI. So they must truly think it’s (currently) impossible to release Apple AI in the EU and comply with the DMA.

In a certain way this is proof the DMA is working. Apple is making its products less competitive - you’d think Verstager would be ecstatic. Spoiler alert: she’s not.

 

[Abazigal]

Isn't it interesting, that Apple does not have to fear loosing ground in the market by withholding a pretty significant feature like AI? I think it's good evidence, how dominant iOS and Android have become through anticompetitive practices.

I don’t find it surprising at all, and I don’t see what’s anticompetitive about this. There was nothing stopping developers from releasing apps for windows phone back then, and yet they steadfastly refused to support a third platform, through no fault of Google or Apple. People chose the iPhone out of their own free will, with its closed ecosystem and higher prices and its lightning port and all, over Android phones.

Apple is withholding Apple Intelligence from the EU not out of some desire to punish EU users, but because they are not able to implement it in a manner which would comply with the DMA, and attempting to do so without proper “clearance” from the EU risks potential fines that would outweigh whatever they stood to earn in the EU. So it’s not about being scared of losing sales to Android, but about opting for the lesser of two evils.

Both Apple and Google have their own respective ecosystems because they were the only two companies willing (and able) to invest in having one in the first place. This is not a problem that the DMA can fix, and it’s clear that the EU has zero intention of addressing this either. If anything, the DMA will only serve to further entrench the dominant positions these two companies hold, because what incentive would any prospective third contender (be it now or in the future) have to even try, knowing that they will be subject to the DMA once they become big enough?

Apple won fair and square, by offering a legitimately superior user experience that users were willing to pay for. And any third competitor, even if one does appear, will most definitely not originate from the EU. Its myriad of legislation has seen to that.

 

[MilaM]

Both Apple and Google have their own respective ecosystems because they were the only two companies willing (and able) to invest in having one in the first place. This is not a problem that the DMA can fix, and it’s clear that the EU has zero intention of addressing this either.

The DMA can't fix it, because it's not possible to create a competitor by pure political will. Even Eurocrats are not that illusional . The race for smartphones operating systems is over for the forceable future. The next best thing governments can do is to make sure, that at least the market for apps, services provided on those platforms is not hindered by anticompetitive practices.

No one in their right might would argue, that Microsoft should be able to close down Windows in the same way that Apple and Google treat their ecosystems because there is a theoretical possibility a competitor might emerge.

 

[I7guy]

The DMA can't fix it, because it's not possible to create a competitor by pure political will. Even Eurocrats are not that illusional . The race for smartphones operating systems is over for the forceable future.

With hundreds of manufacturers (do you disagree?) the race for smartphones is far from over.

The next best thing governments can do is to make sure, that at least the market for apps, services provided on those platforms is not hindered by anticompetitive practices.

I speaking about apple there have not been any anticompetitive findings. Only a thinly veiled regulation called which masquerades as a the Declaration of Independence for consumers but is a thinly veiled attempt to take the profits from apple.

No one in their right might would argue, that Microsoft should be able to close down Windows in the same way that Apple and Google treat their ecosystems because there is a theoretical possibility a competitor might emerge.

Nonsense. There are many closed ecosystems. Microsoft is minimally vertically integrated, hence no real ecosystem. Way different than apples business model.

 

[MilaM]

With hundreds of manufacturers (do you disagree?) the race for smartphones is far from over.

The legislation is not and never has been about the hardware side of the market. It's easy, almost trivial, to create a new phone with decent specs. The Android ecosystem is proof of that. There are dozens if not hundreds of Chinese companies that will help you to put together the parts and manufacture even a small batch. That is not the issue the DMA is addressing.

 

[Abazigal]

The DMA can't fix it, because it's not possible to create a competitor by pure political will. Even Eurocrats are not that illusional . The race for smartphones operating systems is over for the forceable future. The next best thing governments can do is to make sure, that at least the market for apps, services provided on those platforms is not hindered by anticompetitive practices.

Which is ironic, because from how I see it, in the process of trying to ensure an even playing field for app developers, the EU is flat out surrendering the smartphone platform to iOS and Android. Not only is the race over, but there will never be another new entrant, precisely because of the DMA effectively dictating the business model of any company who might grow big enough to challenge Google and Android.

This is what I am trying to say. You want the benefits the DMA brings, don’t complain about the downsides that will invariably follow as well.

For example, one reason (I believe) why Apple is willing to support their phones for as long as they do is because they possess ample ways of monetising their user base (from app sales to services to Apple Pay). Take away these additional sources of revenue, and I won’t be surprised if Apple decides to make up for the shortfall by raising prices of their hardware in the EU.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

[MilaM]

Which is ironic, because from how I see it, in the process of trying to ensure an even playing field for app developers, the EU is flat out surrendering the smartphone platform to iOS and Android. Not only is the race over, but there will never be another new entrant, precisely because of the DMA effectively dictating the business model of any company who might grow big enough to challenge Google and Android.

You say it's ironic, I say it's realistic. The DMA can only deal with what is happening now, not what might be in the future. The rest of your argument is hyperbole in my opinion. Only because Apple has to allow competing browser engines or payment wallets, does not mean that Apple can't compete with their own offering.

For example, one reason (I believe) why Apple is willing to support their phones for as long as they do is because they possess ample ways of monetising their user base (from app sales to services to Apple Pay). Take away these additional sources of revenue, and I won’t be surprised if Apple decides to make up for the shortfall by raising prices of their hardware in the EU.

Have you ever looked at Apple's income statement? Which part of it tells you this is a company struggling in a fiercely competitive market?