EU Probes Apple's Decision to Shut Down Epic's Developer Account

[Beautyspin]

Epic - don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. If that developer account was so precious you shouldn't have breached your contract

EU - if Apple stops investing in jobs in your regions, the blame falls on this over reaching organization.

This is getting way out of hand.

The EU estimates 110 billion growth due to DMA, DSA and AI acts.

 

[gegy]

Epic…Fortnite…What was that again? 🤔

 

[Manzanito]

Also, not every iPhone costs $1000. There's the $400 iPhone SE, there's the entry level $329 iPad 9, there's the discontinued iPod touch, and there's also the second hand iPhone someone bought off the grey market in lieu of a brand new iPhone from Apple. I assume that one of the chief reasons Apple is willing to support their devices as long as they do (even if it comes at the expense of some users holding on to their devices longer and upgrading less often) is because of the expectation that these iOS users will still earn Apple some money by way of sales of additional accessories, apps, subscriptions and services like Apple Pay. It's all connected, and it's all factored in.

At the heart of the matter, I maintain that Apple is entitled to monetise their IP however they wish by virtue of them selling a vertically integrated product. The right way to approach is if the EU had acknowledged this right from the very start, while also stating that this has to be balanced with the good of society as a whole. Instead, they decided to wage a war with Apple (the optics of which are somewhat coloured by their apparently blatant and open support of Spotify, a home-grown company), and so long as the EU refuses to be honest about just what they are trying to do, I support Apple's decision to keep pushing and testing every boundary of the DMA until we get real clarity about what is being asked.

I’d say Apple supports their phones for a long time because people are more likely to buy from them again if the last product they bought had a long life. That’s my case at least, I don’t mind paying a little more if the device will last longer. Been that way with my old cMP and rMBP.

For your other point, I very much doubt the EU would pick a fight with apple just to defend a swedish company. Sweden is just one of many countries in the EU. You can agree or disagree with the DMA, you are entitled to your opinion, but I really think their motives are genuine.

 

[GizmoDVD]

EU can't force Apple to do business with anyone. Best of luck to you, EU and Epic.

 

[FaustsHausUK]

Both companies did something wrong, but one did something wrong consciously. Epic were openly defiant to elicit change. A change that is now occurring. They even took a major, major hit to their bottom line on principle, a behavior I don't believe Apple has the backbone to equal.

C'mon man, I didn't think people were still this naive. They took a _bet_ - with daddy Tencent's cheque book as a fallback - that their bottom line would greatly benefit if they could lessen Apple's control over its app store. This isn't about principles, this is about them getting a larger cut of the pie selling digital currency to kids on the back of a platform another company built and maintains. They made a big enough noise that now they could potentially open an app store of their own and take a cut of other people's pies, too.

 

[progx]

And similar to macOS, that is legally not enforcable in most parts of the world.

They can still scapegoat and claim the software was malicious.

Sideloading does not kill your machine, an insecure OS will.

Sure, that's true too. Apps can still take down your machine too.

I agree with your points. With my Mac I accept the risk, but my iPhone I do not, so I'll stick with the App Store. My iPhone isn't my bicycle, my Mac and PC build are where I'll do productivity.

 

[rafark]

Would they do the same probe if a confectionary manufacturer gets delisted from a supermarket chain?
How about Amazon removing a marketplace account due to the owner not adhering to their policies?

Why do people always bring this up? Do customers own a piece (more like half) of the supermarket? Because we own our devices, so your analogy is apples to oranges.

 

[applepotato666]

How to make your Android phone easier to use

In this blog Panda Security wants to introduce you to our top tips for making your Android smartphone easier – and faster - to use.

www.pandasecurity.com

As the article mentions, this is influenced by market share (Android has a lot more so naturally more devices would be infected). And it's a huge difference - Android has a 72% market share. It's also an issue with updates on budget phones, since most Android devices out there are cheap Androids running really old versions of Android with no security updates and patches. Statistically I can see where they're coming from, but it doesn't make the system less secure when comparing latest version to latest version - the chance someone's Android is running a many year old version of Android with no security updates in ages is probably the same as someone's iPhone running the latest. It's obviously one of the reasons I prefer the iPhone and pay the price for it, but when reading statistics it's always good to keep the factors behind the findings in mind.

 

[treacher]

C'mon man, I didn't think people were still this naive. They took a _bet_ - with daddy Tencent's cheque book as a fallback - that their bottom line would greatly benefit if they could lessen Apple's control over its app store. This isn't about principles, this is about them getting a larger cut of the pie selling digital currency to kids on the back of a platform another company built and maintains. They made a big enough noise that now they could potentially open an app store of their own and take a cut of other people's pies, too.

Yes, a bet is a risk to your bottom line, and it's already cut deep. Of course Epic wants money, we all want money, Apple wants money. It's an ethical win and a money grab both. Sometimes it works that way.

Also, the irony of you trying to badmouth a company's ties to China is not lost on me.

 

[bcortens]

Great explanation, thank you for that.

Apple developed these SDKs and new SDKs can be access by the developers of the App Store - hence the 15-30% cut is used to keep the platform healthy and updated.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Apple still shoudl Applo to access to SDKs as this hinders not only EPIC to use these SDKs, but making them vulnerable for their code to be stolen. In that case Apple should charge them for the use of the SDKs. Of course EPIC can choose to create their own or use a web based solution too as you stated. But at least have a choice.

This is, and always has been, nonsense.

The 15-30% cut does not apply to:
- Companies selling physical goods
- Ride sharing companies
- Reader apps are exempt
- Ad funded apps

Some of the most profitable and popular apps on the store pay nothing for access or use of the SDKs and tools. These apps obviously cost Apple more than a small time app that does pay the 15-30% fee.

Others have pointed out that Apple exempts these categories as a business decision, that's fine, but then it isn't a fair and non-discriminatory market in which case Apple (and you) haven't a leg to stand on when presenting the argument that these fees (and the CTF) are necessary to fund iOS.

 

[j26]

As the article mentions, this is influenced by market share (Android has a lot more so naturally more devices would be infected). And it's a huge difference - Android has a 72% market share. It's also an issue with updates on budget phones, since most Android devices out there are cheap Androids running really old versions of Android with no security updates and patches. Statistically I can see where they're coming from, but it doesn't make the system less secure when comparing latest version to latest version - the chance someone's Android is running a many year old version of Android with no security updates in ages is probably the same as someone's iPhone running the latest. It's obviously one of the reasons I prefer the iPhone and pay the price for it, but when reading statistics it's always good to keep the factors behind the findings in mind.

Never had a problem on any Android phone I've had, but then again, being a bit more techie than the general population I usually have a relatively recent phone which is still supported.

 

[JordanCautious]

Apple lawyers are more or less rubbing their hands I'm guessing. I don't think they would ban Epic if they didn't think it was legally sound tbh. Cause imagine the fines if the EU were to say it goes against the DMA. Lawyers always win in these situations lmao

 

[Manatlt]

why the hell Apple is still dictating which app/publisher should be allowed outside the App Store?

Isn’t that the point of DMA? Apple just don’t get it. If they are not careful they will be in big trouble.

 

[I7guy]

why the hell Apple is still dictating which app/publisher should be allowed outside the App Store?

Isn’t that the point of DMA? Apple just don’t get it. If they are not careful they will be in big trouble.

Think apple gets it quite well. IMO, nobody wants apple to not have a modicum of control because that opens the door to very bad things. Epic violated their contract. If apple doesn’t want them on the ecosystem, it’s their right. Now epic may sue or the eu may sue, but that could open a can of worms nobody’s wants.

 

[Apple Mac Daz]

why the hell Apple is still dictating which app/publisher should be allowed outside the App Store?

Isn’t that the point of DMA? Apple just don’t get it. If they are not careful they will be in big trouble.

They probably do get it but they want the system tied down so they don’t loose a dollar in revenue. Doing all they can to prevent it isn’t gonna end well in the EU with their anti-competitive practices.

 

[yabeweb]

EU has been busy these days.

Apple is apparently happy since they keep doing things their way making EU unhappy…

Hope EU really step in big time!

 

[hans1972]

Well... taking into account how many people use iPhones... what if Microsoft started to dictate who can and who cannot install apps on Windows? Btw., remember Internet Explorer case?

I would love for Microsoft to do this.

 

[Ethosik]

Yes, Epic is b.tch.
But everything around competition/commissions and all starting to have an effect on Apple's reputation. For now only amongst developers, but I don't think Apple should let this stain their image for general users. They make no money at all on their biggest "partners" (like Epic, Spotify, Netflix, etc.) because they are so stubborn to have everything in their own terms only. They should have figured out a way to be in business with them in good faith, rather than being forced to do it via courts.

They have to take a stance. If they approve Epics account and they continually break the agreement, but they just say oh well. That can lead to disastrous consequences. Why should they be allowed to ban me but not epic???!

 

[cupcakes2000]

They did the same with GDPR. You think they intended for every website to be constantly asking you to agree to stuff every time you go to their page?

You also have to remember that Apple is literally the only main stream OS supplier that has a system as locked down as this. So by definition pretty much all the experts you bring will have another perspective to Apples view. So I think it’s pretty easy for them, fueled by Spotify (an EU company) to come up with rulings that they haven’t thought through.

Unless you think lawmakers are androids and have no blind spots?

This just shows your lack of knowledge of the principles of the eu.

And the mess that has become of the gdpr notifications is simply big tech and advertising trying to get their mitts on your data. They’re going to extreme so you just tap accept. My websites have an unobtrusive banner that says unless you click accept, no cookies will be used. You don’t even need to click it to use the site.

Unless you rather they just put what they want on your computer I would not blame the eu for what’s become of it.

 

[Ethosik]

You need to have a business relationship with Apple to write and distribute software on the Mac.

Need to part of the developer program and submit relevant details to notarise your apps.

Not necessarily. There are apps I still use that aren’t notarized and signed. This is what people here want.

 

[bcortens]

This just shows your lack of knowledge of the principles of the eu.

And the mess that has become of the gdpr notifications is simply big tech and advertising trying to get their mitts on your data. They’re going to extreme so you just tap accept. My websites have an unobtrusive banner that says unless you click accept, no cookies will be used. You don’t even need to click it to use the site.

Unless you rather they just put what they want on your computer I would not blame the eu for what’s become of it.

I personally think that the EU should have mandated that the cookie popups be removed by now with an amendment to mandate no tracking be the default setting. If you want to opt in to tracking it should be an unobtrusive call to action or in settings.

 

[CarAnalogy]

I think they may have done this to push the whole thing to the Supreme Court in the EU.
You're basically forcing a company to go into a contract with another company who have consistently lied and acted in bad faith. Is that even legal?

Is Apple now a utility company providing energy or something? The EU will have to revise what their rules mean. Again, they haven't thought it through. On one side they say that apple needs to make sure apps from third parties are secure etc, which means they have to sign these apps one way or another centrally. But on the other side they are implying apple should let software come in from anywhere and they have no right to vet it. Can you have both things on a OS that is designed in this way? And more importantly, should apple be legally forced to help companies deploy on their platform if that company is harmful or dishonest to Apple?

Lots to chew on here.. My bet is the EU has tangled itself up without fully understanding the technology.

The core issue is still that Apple has literally set themselves up as the gatekeeper to their platform. I don't see how they can completely have it both ways.

No they're not a utility. But they are one of only two choices for an absolute necessity today. It's increasingly impossible to function in a society without a mobile phone. There are exactly two software platforms for that. Industries have been regulated over less.

If they insist on fully controlling all software on their platform, then they have to make good faith, non-capricious rules about it. Apple hates Epic so much because Epic so fundamentally disagrees with their platform's rules on principle. Maybe they're right or wrong but has Apple stopped to consider why so many people feel that way, and if it really is, as they say, the children who are wrong?

The entire thing hinges around the assumption that Apple must control all software on their platform completely, and that there is no possibility of running software on iOS without their permission, or even *developing* software without their permission. That seems...excessive. Maybe they do have that right, but now it seems that's for the courts to decide. They didn’t have to play ball this hard.

 

[cupcakes2000]

I personally think that the EU should have mandated that the cookie popups be removed by now with an amendment to mandate no tracking be the default setting. If you want to opt in to tracking it should be an unobtrusive call to action or in settings.

Some solution does to found to fix the current situation, I agree.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Apple lawyers are more or less rubbing their hands I'm guessing. I don't think they would ban Epic if they didn't think it was legally sound tbh.

Would these be the same ones giving Apple advice before the $2b fine?

 

[Will Co]

Observing from the UK, the EU has repeatedly shown that it gets a lot of bureaucracy wrong when it comes to technical complexity. I think this is one of them. My concern is that they may force Apple to remove the requirement to have a relationship with them to publish apps and that this might significantly limit Apples oversight of what gets published. Some would argue that’s the point. I argue that it will be open season on iOS. I know I have a choice and I will stick to using apps from AppStore. But lots won’t and they will get badly bitten.