Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
This just shows your lack of knowledge of the principles of the eu.

And the mess that has become of the gdpr notifications is simply big tech and advertising trying to get their mitts on your data. They’re going to extreme so you just tap accept. My websites have an unobtrusive banner that says unless you click accept, no cookies will be used. You don’t even need to click it to use the site.

Unless you rather they just put what they want on your computer I would not blame the eu for what’s become of it.
Obviously you missed the point. If you define a law or rules you need to be mindful of unintended consequences. Thats why it's a difficult thing to do. Yes people should act in the spirit of the law but where there is money to be made people will always find ways to apply the rules in ways that benefit them. Hence the debacle that is GDPR.

Apple is also doing the same thing here, pushing the boundaries of an ill thought out law (it seems) to get what they want. All I said was that the experts that informed the EU law makers on how to draft this law are probably coming from a whole different position in terms of what should happen. And there doing this because Apple's stance on everything computing wise has always been the minority view anyway, which is why when they win, they win pretty big generally.
 
EU can't force Apple to do business with anyone. Best of luck to you, EU and Epic.

Maybe, maybe not. It can depend on local laws and what you mean by "force" and "do business with." For example, back in 2010 Ticketmaster was required to license its ticket software to AEG and Comcast-Spectator allowing the two companies to compete more directly with Ticketmaster.
 
Obviously you missed the point. If you define a law or rules you need to be mindful of unintended consequences. Thats why it's a difficult thing to do. Yes people should act in the spirit of the law but where there is money to be made people will always find ways to apply the rules in ways that benefit them. Hence the debacle that is GDPR.

Apple is also doing the same thing here, pushing the boundaries of an ill thought out law (it seems) to get what they want. All I said was that the experts that informed the EU law makers on how to draft this law are probably coming from a whole different position in terms of what should happen. And there doing this because Apple's stance on everything computing wise has always been the minority view anyway, which is why when they win, they win pretty big generally.
GDPR is more than just the cookie popup and has been used by many users to find out how much data companies have on them and to demand data deletion. The fact that they got cookies wrong doesn't mean the whole thing was badly thought out or useless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lyrics23
This is asinine. Epic willfully violates rules they signed up for, whines like a ****ing toddler when they're called untrustworthy and then runs to Daddy EU crying they can't play in the same sandbox as the other children who didn't violate the rules.

The EU needs to pound sand.
 
Developers already pay 99 dollars a year for the Developer Program, which according to Apple includes "all the tools, resources, and support you need to create and deliver software to over a billion customers around the world on Apple platforms" (this also applies when they distribute apps on macOS outside of the App Store). On top of that, Apple is making billions in profits from App Store ads, which wouldn't be possible without the loyalty of all those developers.

If the App Store commissions really were about being fairly compensated for software, tools, resources, hosting and what not, then Apple should completely rethink this business model since tens of thousands of big developers are only paying 99 dollars.

These commissions obviously have nothing to do with being compensated. Apple just wants to have a monopoly on app distribution and payment processing, so that they can extort developers as much as possible. This is why many people are calling it rent-seeking behavior.
Epic also requires a percentage fee when using Unreal. When talking about large companies as we are in this context. Visual studio requires a fee per developer. Unity requires fees. Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo do too. So does Steam and Epic Games Store.
 
This is asinine. Epic willfully violates rules they signed up for, whines like a ****ing toddler when they're called untrustworthy and then runs to Daddy EU crying they can't play in the same sandbox as the other children who didn't violate the rules.

The EU needs to pound sand.
They violated rules that are now very likely illegal in the EU, the rules might also have been illegal before the DMA but that's neither here nor there.

As many others in this thread have said, Apple permanently banning Epic in response to violating apps tore guidelines might violate the DMA anyway which is why the EU is investigating.
 
Epic is the one who tried to defraud apple. They lost their court case and have to pay legal fees and lost hundreds of millions in revenue. Who’s the crybaby? It ain’t apple.
U.S. court cases have no bearing on European courts. If Apple broke the law in EU fro taking down their account then that’s apple to deal with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NVD and Lyrics23
I’m not one to do the whole if Steve Jobs were here blah blah blah but in this case I think he’d have done a much better job handling all these App Store issues. Apple took the bait from Epic and Spotify. I put that squarely on Phil Schiller (and maybe Eddy Cue). I think it’s time for both to retire. Get some new blood in there.
Steve would have been much worse. He was an amazing man, but being nice wasn’t his strength. Flash/Blu Ray/Amazon Kindle/you are holding it wrong/etc.
 
It's really painful seeing Apple behave like this... In the long term they're absolutely going to lose this battle and it will harm their reputation. Instead of trying to squeeze as much profits as possible out of their monopoly while they still can, they should start acting in good faith and start healing the relationship with developers and regulators. Angering them even further will only make it more likely that bigger changes will be forced upon Apple.

To quote Steve Jobs: "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been."

Well blame public companies. Majority of shareholders demand Apple to maximize profits. This is what doing that looks like. They could roll over and take all of this, but if it goes against shareholder wishes it could lead to other trouble. At least Apple can say “we did everything we could to protect our profits with these changes”.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9059737
The core issue is still that Apple has literally set themselves up as the gatekeeper to their platform. I don't see how they can completely have it both ways.

No they're not a utility. But they are one of only two choices for an absolute necessity today. It's increasingly impossible to function in a society without a mobile phone. There are exactly two software platforms for that. Industries have been regulated over less.

If they insist on fully controlling all software on their platform, then they have to make good faith, non-capricious rules about it. Apple hates Epic so much because Epic so fundamentally disagrees with their platform's rules on principle. Maybe they're right or wrong but has Apple stopped to consider why so many people feel that way, and if it really is, as they say, the children who are wrong?

The entire thing hinges around the assumption that Apple must control all software on their platform completely, and that there is no possibility of running software on iOS without their permission, or even *developing* software without their permission. That seems...excessive. Maybe they do have that right, but now it seems that's for the courts to decide. They didn’t have to play ball this hard.
I think this is what happens when you are successful. We must remember that these rules have existed since the beginning of the App Store 15 yrs ago. This is entrepreneurial risk. Apple spent money to design a product, a system then a dev kit and distribution story and put the contract in front of dev's without a gun to their heads. There was no market share leverage etc.. and guess what, they all willingly agreed to the 30%!

Remember that the 30% was there to subsidise the free distribution of apps as well as the upkeep of the store and dev support etc. Without that initially there wouldn't have been enough devs making any money to bother making apps and the store would not have grown like it did. And many Indi devs were happy to pay the 30% because let's be frank, it was an absolute nightmare for independent developers to write and distribute their own apps back then. Apple was a god send.

So fast forward to now where the strategy of helping Indi devs make money etc has made apple win big time. And this is where the problem starts. It's not that there are only 2 devices on the handset market, thats not the issue here. The issue is that a lot of the good money and good customers are disproportionately on the apple platform! The apple platform only accounts for 20% or so of the EU market. So can Spotify not make money from the other 80%? According to them no (even though the evidence is to the contrary, but I digress).

The reality is (as they say in the music biz) when there's a hit there's a writ! There's a lot of money here and it's big companies that are complaining the most about this, not the Indi devs apple enabled originally.
To them there is no value in Apple doing anything for them because they prefer free and open frameworks as they are big enough to advertise and make their own networks to get paid. They dont really need Apple apart from this one thing they would like.. access to Apples rich customer base. And they would rather remove Apple's core competency and selling point (security and ease of use for customers) in order to make more money! And leave us the consumer with no actual choice about which system we want to use. Making EVERY option available a Swiss cheese old school OS model with obligatory malware scanning system. Something I really do not want.


And thats all this is about to me.
It's been portrayed as a sort of David and Goliath (Spotify is so poor lol) story, or a story for the benefit of consumers rather than a straight up Business 2 Business contract story that it is. With one rich company trying to get more out of another richer company.

No one who is a consumer or an Indi dev will benefit from anything these rich firms like Epic and Spotify are using the EU to get for themselves. I think it's brazen lobbying for the enrichment of a few rich businesses. Same as it ever was...
 
Well blame public companies. Majority of shareholders demand Apple to maximize profits. This is what doing that looks like. They could roll over and take all of this, but if it goes against shareholder wishes it could lead to other trouble. At least Apple can say “we did everything we could to protect our profits with these changes”.
I think they are getting close to the point of facing an even more catastrophic fine (10% global revenue) if they keep this up... that could be far worse for profits than chasing every last penny of App Store revenue. You're right that they are going to chase this revenue to the last possible moment, however I think they might already have gone too far and might already be at risk of much larger fines.
 
That was a US court, which has no bearing in the EU.
From the official website of the EU:

"Mutual recognition of judgments
The European Union works to ensure that judgments from one EU country can be recognised and enforced in any other EU country."

"Overview
Once you have obtained a judgment in your favour, that judgment is automatically recognised in every EU country. The judgment may be refused only in exceptional cases."
 
  • Like
Reactions: visualseed
The EU isn't preventing Apple from having terms of service for the 3rd party app stores so Epic's intentional violations of terms of service in the United States can't be completely dismissed. It's definitely not an arbitrary action on Apple's part. Just have to see if the EU wants to go to bat for Epic and then risk having them blow up that support later on.
It is, from EUs perspective it’s not illegal to break a contract that isn’t legally binding. It’s kind of ridiculous to hold Epic accountable for breaking illegal contracts
 
GDPR is more than just the cookie popup and has been used by many users to find out how much data companies have on them and to demand data deletion. The fact that they got cookies wrong doesn't mean the whole thing was badly thought out or useless.
never said it was useless. But it is undeniable that large parts of it were poorly thought out. So it's clear that EU law makers no matter how brainy they pretend to be can get it wrong! Wasnt it they that setup the rules for farmers back in the 90s that created the EU butter mountain!

Also, do you really think GDPR in Europe has done anything much to address the huge misuse of personal data on the web? I see no evidence of that at all.
 
From the official website of the EU:

"Mutual recognition of judgments
The European Union works to ensure that judgments from one EU country can be recognised and enforced in any other EU country."

"Overview
Once you have obtained a judgment in your favour, that judgment is automatically recognised in every EU country. The judgment may be refused only in exceptional cases."
And on what planet is this relevant in this thread? US courts are only important in US jurisdiction.

EU haven’t ever respected US legal decisions for their own jurisdiction.
 
Apple lawyers are more or less rubbing their hands I'm guessing. I don't think they would ban Epic if they didn't think it was legally sound tbh. Cause imagine the fines if the EU were to say it goes against the DMA. Lawyers always win in these situations lmao
It doesn’t go against the DMA, but it goes against DSA( Digital Services Act) when it comes to contract law
 
  • Like
Reactions: NVD and Lyrics23
GDPR is more than just the cookie popup and has been used by many users to find out how much data companies have on them and to demand data deletion. The fact that they got cookies wrong doesn't mean the whole thing was badly thought out or useless.
The cookies are a minor part of GDPR - the rest of it.... well, it's well intentioned, but overly prescriptive, and quite cumbersome to deal with. It interferes a lot with my work.
 
From the official website of the EU:

"Mutual recognition of judgments
The European Union works to ensure that judgments from one EU country can be recognised and enforced in any other EU country."

"Overview
Once you have obtained a judgment in your favour, that judgment is automatically recognised in every EU country. The judgment may be refused only in exceptional cases."
What’s that got to do with the price of eggs? It doesn’t even say what you’re using it as proof for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lyrics23
There is a difference in your examples. Apple decided to mandate a dev. account for alternative app stores —something that Apple has to allow by law now. If Apple had not decided to take a rather absurd interpretation of the DMA, they would had no trouble removing dev. accounts. However, as you need one to publish an alternative store, then you are—by extension—disallowing alternative stores without providing sufficient justification to why (within the DMA's legal framework).

A supermarket chain can delist a confectionary manufacturer, no problem with that. However, if there is only one supermarket chain and that chain delists third-party products in favour of their own brands, then it becomes a case of them acting as a monopoly.
Shocking how many people don’t get this.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.