EU Probes Apple's Decision to Shut Down Epic's Developer Account

[Anaxarxes]

Without a developer account, Epic does not have access to provisioning profiles, which is essentially a gate that allows someone using Xcode to create a copy of the app that can run on external devices. Which means now, Epic cannot create a new copy of their app to run on any App Store, in any country. This effectively locks out Epic from using Apple's technologies, specifically Xcode from ever creating a new copy of their app.

Offcourse, no-one restricts epic from using non-Apple technologies from running on the Apple's devices. Like a web app for example.

So Apple is not restricting Epic from running on Apple devices, or other App Stores. They just can't use Apple's proprietary technologies, like Xcode and Apple SDKs.

Great explanation, thank you for that.

Apple developed these SDKs and new SDKs can be accessed by the developers of the App Store - hence the 15-30% cut is used to keep the platform healthy and updated.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Apple still should allow EPIC to access to SDKs as this hinders not only EPIC to use these SDKs, but making them vulnerable for their code to be stolen. In that case Apple should charge them for the use of the SDKs. Of course EPIC can choose to create their own or use a web based solution too as you stated. But at least have a choice.

 

[DFZD]

Apple sales are falling in China, they should try these shenanigans over there to see how much power they actually hold over regions outside US.

 

[falkon-engine]

These two will likely continue to beef until the end of time. Similar to 50 cent vs Ja Rule.

 

[AlexESP]

Apple is also being truly hypocritical about the DMA in general. They write passive-aggressive messaging every opportunity they get to talk about the DMA. But you rarely hear them, let alone write in the way they do, about all the modifications they make to accommodate the PRC.

At this point, Apple should try to smooth things out with the EU (out of responsibility towards their users) rather than continuously antagonize the EU. It is a battle they cannot win (they are not lawmakers). In that way they could keep more protections up that (probably) most iPhone users want.

It’s a difficult spot - as you said Apple is not the lawmaker, so they have to be careful. But as a user, I hope that Apple defends its values. We’ve seen that the EU doesn’t usually listen to logical arguments (they’ve met countless times with Apple), they respond to pressure. And if they give up, the EU won’t stop there.

Of course they don’t do the same with China, because we know what kind of country it is and what would happen if they complained. I think we europeans should have a much higher threshold for openness and freedom.

 

[gluckett]

There is a difference in your examples. Apple decided to mandate a dev. account for alternative app stores —something that Apple has to allow by law now. If Apple had not decided to take a rather absurd interpretation of the DMA, they would had no trouble removing dev. accounts. However, as you need one to publish an alternative store, then you are—by extension—disallowing alternative stores without providing sufficient justification to why (within the DMA's legal framework).

A supermarket chain can delist a confectionary manufacturer, no problem with that. However, if there is only one supermarket chain and that chain delists third-party products in favour of their own brands, then it becomes a case of them acting as a monopoly.

I find it a bit of a stretch to say Apple is acting as a monopoly.

 

[Beautyspin]

Since EU is targeting big American companies and twisting their arms without any understanding of tech, or user experience or business freedom, may be it's time for American tech companies to come together and strategise.

Monopoly laws were created because someone could gain access to physical space and force everyone out.
The idea of a monopoly in the digital space makes no sense unless a company is buying out all the competition or something like that. Because digital space is unlimited.

As long as customers are made aware of the restrictions of the product before they buy/use it, it's none of lawmakers job to interfere. Especially when Apple users specifically buy Apple products because of these restrictions. Like... Which Apple user asked the be presented with a list of browser options before the activate their phone?

I bought several Apple products, not because it is a closed ecosystem.

 

[treacher]

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Car fatalities are 50,000 times more likely than airplane fatalities.

 

[AlexESP]

I don’t think so. Please provide references for that.

Very well described here: https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2024/1/31/remaking-the-app-store

 

[Anaxarxes]

Car fatalities are more than 50,000 times more likely than airplane fatalities.

The statement was not 'likely' on Android vs iOS - Android is already more infected than iOS.

 

[AlexESP]

Car fatalities are 50,000 times more likely than airplane fatalities.

And no one says “let’s forbid airports to check luggage because it’s a hassle and flying is anyway much safer than driving”.

 

[treacher]

And no one says “let’s forbid airports to check luggage because it’s a hassle and flying is anyway much safer than driving”.

It's good to see someone offer their support to the charade that is pre-flight security theater.

 

[Abazigal]

I'm curious about the financial steps involved with these new App stores.

Apple isn't handling sales so when a company makes a sale on an Alt App Store, so does Apple just send them a bill? Does the same happen for the *ugh* Core Technology Fee?

As such was Apples rationale that Epic would simply not pay its bills so chose ban their account before they can rack up a debt?

If this is true it feels like Apple knows it has a weak position in enforcing it's monetisation policies for Alt App Stores so wanted to make a very public example to show all EU developers that Apple have a nuclear (and terrible PR) option.

My understanding is that Apple doesn't get a cut of app sales from third party app stores except for the CTF on apps that have over a million installs. I assume that Apple has a way of monitoring and tracking app installs and will bill these app stores periodically, and will presumably go after App Store owners who don't pay via the law.

Apple is also being truly hypocritical about the DMA in general. They write passive-aggressive messaging every opportunity they get to talk about the DMA. But you rarely hear them, let alone write in the way they do, about all the modifications they make to accommodate the PRC.

The PRC never forced Apple to open up their App Store or give up their 30% cut.

The more I read into this, the more I feel that Apple isn't so much acting out of hypocrisy as much as they are reacting out of full self-righteousness. Apple seems to truly believe, with every fiber of their corporate being, that they created the App Store, that they are fully entitled to monetise their IP (not wrong), that developers owe them (not wrong but not entirely right either), and they will give up their 30% cut only kicking and screaming.

It's a hill Apple is clearly willing to die on, and the motivation here is something far greater than greed. At least with greed, Apple accountants could do the sums and maybe show that it may be cheaper to simply capitulate to the spirit of the DMA and cut their losses.

But an Apple that is 100% convinced that they are in the right and that it is the EU who is wrong? Now, this will be an interesting next few weeks to watch.

And for what it's worth, I thought Apple was already being fairly reserved with their words, and there was certainly room to be even more pointed and direct in their language. Come out and say in no uncertain terms that the Commission got it wrong and App Store attacks are being fueled by competitors who aren’t interested in helping customers or independent developers. Let's see what the EU has to say about that.

 

[treacher]

The statement was not 'likely' on Android vs iOS - Android is already more infected than iOS.

The fatality data is based on bodies that have already become corpses. I think people still get on with driving cars, though, including yourself.

 

[phenste]

I think they may have done this to push the whole thing to the Supreme Court in the EU.
You're basically forcing a company to go into a contract with another company who have consistently lied and acted in bad faith. Is that even legal?

Is Apple now a utility company providing energy or something? The EU will have to revise what their rules mean. Again, they haven't thought it through. On one side they say that apple needs to make sure apps from third parties are secure etc, which means they have to sign these apps one way or another centrally. But on the other side they are implying apple should let software come in from anywhere and they have no right to vet it. Can you have both things on a OS that is designed in this way? And more importantly, should apple be legally forced to help companies deploy on their platform if that company is harmful or dishonest to Apple?

Lots to chew on here.. My bet is the EU has tangled itself up without fully understanding the technology.

just clocked pretty much every major piece of tech-related legislation from both the EU and the US in the past fifteen years or so, lmao…

as far as this whole thing goes—Gruber posted some extra details that are really, really worth reading, particularly the email exchange between Phil Schiller and Tim Sweeney. it does beg a fascinating question: what does Epic do to prove to Apple that they will act in good faith moving forward? if we’re to take Apple at their word (which I know is probably a fool’s errand, but let’s just run with it for the thought experiment), they cannot trust Epic with a developer account after breaking the App Store rules in such a flagrant manner—the idea likely being, “if they’ve done that before, what could they do in the future to undermine iOS as a platform?” (for reference, I am in the camp of people who believes that Apple’s 30% cut is well-deserved, and can understand their concerns about alternative app marketplaces when they [with a few glaring exceptions] maintain both the App Store and all iOS development tools with the standards they do)

and yet…what can Tim Sweeney do over an email thread to prove that Epic is acting in good faith? could he ask Epic’s legal team to draft up a contract, personally sign it, and send it to Apple’s lawyers to sign as well, stating in the most explicit terms possible how Epic will appease Apple moving forward? it all seems rather…excessive. but it does beg the ultimate and most question to be solved here: who has the final say in who gets approval for alternative marketplaces, Apple or the EU? I have a feeling the above commenter got it right with saying this move was to force the EU’s Supreme Court into deliberating this.

 

[AndiG]

Come on EU, drag 'em. Drag 'em hard!! 😬

 

[9059737]

Apple developed these SDKs and new SDKs can be access by the developers of the App Store - hence the 15-30% cut is used to keep the platform healthy and updated.

Developers already pay 99 dollars a year for the Developer Program, which according to Apple includes "all the tools, resources, and support you need to create and deliver software to over a billion customers around the world on Apple platforms" (this also applies when they distribute apps on macOS outside of the App Store). On top of that, Apple is making billions in profits from App Store ads, which wouldn't be possible without the loyalty of all those developers.

If the App Store commissions really were about being fairly compensated for software, tools, resources, hosting and what not, then Apple should completely rethink this business model since tens of thousands of big developers are only paying 99 dollars.

These commissions obviously have nothing to do with being compensated. Apple just wants to have a monopoly on app distribution and payment processing, so that they can extort developers as much as possible. This is why many people are calling it rent-seeking behavior.

 

[Xanix]

APPLE is the new Karen. She want to be the gatekeeper and at the same time decide, who can or can not create new stores for iOS, in the EU. We, europeans, despise segregation.

As a gatekeeper; she is obliged to deal with anyone and everyone who wants to create a new store for iOS on EU, eg: EPIC (although both are obnoxious and malicious companies).

In the end; both companies want we to depart from our money on their behalf, BUT both need to comply with the EU laws.

The latest developments clearly show us that the EC, should be the gatekeeper in the EU.

 

[Abazigal]

what does Epic do to prove to Apple that they will act in good faith moving forward?

Has epic done anything to show that they are genuine in wanting to return to the iOS App Store at all, or were they simply one of the many companies criticising Apple and cheering on the DMA every step of the way?

From what I have seen, Tim Sweeney has basically been acting like a sore loser every step of the way. Maybe I would too if I were in his shoes and my own personal pride took precedence over the financial well-being of my company, but I doubt he has even attempted to reach out to Apple on how to go about getting Fortnite reinstated in the App Store. If he would rather make do with 100% of nothing over 70% of something, then that's on him, I guess.

If Tim Sweeney is waiting for the way when the iOS App Store is forced to open up and allow sideloading to every iPhone user around the world, it's going to be a long time before that happens. Will he even still be CEO then?

These commissions obviously have nothing to do with being compensated. Apple just wants to have a monopoly on app distribution and payment processing, so that they can extort developers as much as possible. This is why many people are calling it rent-seeking behavior.

Not at all unlike what Sony and Nintendo are doing with their game consoles. What exactly does Nintendo do to deserve a 30% cut of every game sold again?

 

[AppZ.Zero]

Good job Apple. Applied directly for the next billion $ fine and defeat in court.

 

[I7guy]

Well... taking into account how many people use iPhones... what if Microsoft started to dictate who can and who cannot install apps on Windows? Btw., remember Internet Explorer case?

And in this case Apple's issue was not that Epic's app was not secure. If Epic is "dishonest" to Apple then do not accept their app in the App Store. But allow them to use alternative store which is now an option in the EU.

How about Microsoft deciding on who could be a licensed oem? Can Microsoft decide who to do business with, especially if a company defrauded them in the past?

 

[tomtad]

Apple, seriously whoever it is making these decisions just PLEASE STOP.

Open your App Store, allow different browsers, foster good relations with other developers and competitors, and make this universal worldwide.

Stop the negative news cycle, stop creating enemies who won't develop for your platforms and be the adult in the room. Yes you have to ceed some control but you'll be a lot better for it.

 

[treacher]

or were they simply one of the many companies criticising Apple

Hey, maybe there's something to this...

Not at all unlike what Sony and Nintendo are doing with their game consoles. What exactly does Nintendo do to deserve a 30% cut of every game sold again?

Subsidize their console.

A type of device that doesn't reach the threshold of users or businesses relying on them, anyways.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I recommend reading the following article to better understand why the EU is doing what is is doing: https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2024/facing-reality-in-the-eu-and-tech/

An excellent and thought-provoking article and one that is well worth reading.

It also explains (to me) some of the reasons why Facebook (meta) thought to appoint Nick Clegg (former deputy Prime Minister of the UK, former MEP in Brussels, and former Brussels public servant), as their vice-president for global affairs & communication.

 

[m4mario]

I recommend reading the following article to better understand why the EU is doing what is is doing: https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2024/facing-reality-in-the-eu-and-tech/

Thanks for that. That was a good read. I take back what I said about them targeting American companies. I do insist however, that they can't demand the proprietary technologies of companies that the latter spent Billions of Dollars developing, for free. That's theft. Or in this case, forced extortion.

There's no fragmentation of EU that's going to happen as long as anyone in any part of EU has access to the same Apple services and costs. And every company in every part of EU has the same charges for using Apple services.

What next? They don't want 2 platforms Windows and Mac because that will cause EU to collapse?

 

[rukia]

Bob Iger: So Tim, let's discuss this new Vision Pro partnership. We just invested $1.5B in Epic and they will be rolling out Unreal on VisionOS with a portfolio of games. I see Sweeney is on the webex call.

Tim Apple:

Bob Iger: I think you're on mute. We can't hear anything.