European Consumer Groups Criticize Apple's Warranties

[ucmj22]

I know we cant agree on this, you in US are used to this consumer capitalism "green" thing. We are not. For you normal, me and here not.
If I pay 2800$ for last gen. mbp 15 base (thats what it costs here) then its not free. And I would like to have proper warranty protection. I am not aksing anything from the sky, which I overpaid as well.
Shure I will, I love apple products, but I cant follow this just pay pay pay philosophy. Just hope my overpaid mbp would be premium after all and wont break after 2-3 years.

You are right we will not agree, some of us here in America still believe in personal responsibility and individual liberty. MBP are so expensive there because of your government import duties and VAT taxes. If you think it is over priced, then you shouldnt buy it! Its like if you were to go to buy a car, and you thought it cost too much, ... but you buy it anyway, then tell the dealer, "hey, I overpaid for this car so now I want you to give me a longer warranty".... too late, you bought the car!

P.S.
If there was no capitalism, there would be no Apple...

 

[AlanFord]

You are right we will not agree, some of us here in America still believe in personal responsibility and individual liberty. MBP are so expensive there because of your government import duties and VAT taxes. If you think it is over priced, then you shouldnt buy it! Its like if you were to go to buy a car, and you thought it cost too much, ... but you buy it anyway, then tell the dealer, "hey, I overpaid for this car so now I want you to give me a longer warranty".... too late, you bought the car!

P.S.
If there was no capitalism, there would be no Apple...

Some of us here in Europe still believe small people do have rights, specially consumer rights if they buy something. In this article just Italy is mentioned, but I know more countrys which have min 2 year warranty for products in their laws.

P.S. If there were no buyers, there would be no Apple as well.

 

[calb]

"Sales of Goods" act requires that you prove the product was defective (if the problem happens after more than six months, and before it is covered by 1 year warranty anyway).

You say "how do you get Apple to respect the Sales of Goods Act?" It's really "how do you get the seller to respect the Sales of Goods Act?" Unless you buy from an Apple Store, the seller responsible is not Apple.

In practice, the first step is that you need to convince someone in the store that you _could_ prove the product was defective, and alternatively, that you would be very annoyed and not buy at the store ever again. That's the first step. If that doesn't work, you need to provide proof that the product was defective. For example, by having an independent competent person check it. If that doesn't work, you would have to take the seller to court.

So if they say "it's past the one year warranty, so you have to pay", you say calmly and looking as if you know what you are talking about "no, that is wrong, the problem was definitely present when I bought the product, and I'm sure I can prove it if I have to" and go from there.

BTW. "It's defective" and "it doesn't work" are not the same thing. Let's say the hard drive is mounted improperly, so it vibrates a lot, and therefore breaks down after 18 months instead of 3 years. It stops working after 18 months, but the defect ("mounted improperly") was present from day one, so it would have to be fixed.

Wrong. The test is that of 'satisfactory quality' and fitness for purpose, as per Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) s.14:

It's a very useful piece of legislation and affords UK consumers some very strong protection over a prolonged period of time (limitation period is 6 years IIRC). For example, if you can show computers are expected to last at least 4 years and your motherboard dies a day after AppleCare ended, the Sale of Goods Act protects you.

Three useful links:
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/the-sale-of-goods-act/
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/understanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/
http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/

Edit: A lot of UK consumers are not aware of their statutory rights and simply accept the loss when something breaks prematurely. This only encourages manufacturers to put out products with substandard durability and quality for the price. If you're prepared to stand by it and follow the chain of escalation with the seller (or alternatively follow up with a professional body), the Sale of Goods Act can get you far.

Edit: It's also why some car manufacturers offer 5-7 year warranties on new cars. It makes them look good in the eyes of the consumer, and they'd have to follow up problems anyway because a new car would undoubtedly be expected to last as long as the SGA limitation period.

 

[TheDutchGuy]

A couple of weeks ago, Apple opened a new Apple Retail store in Amsterdam. But I have an Apple Premium Resellers store in my hometown. So I went there 2 days ago and asked about the warranties.

If you buy something at the official Apple store, you just get 1 year and if you want, you can buy Apple Care to extend that to 3 years.

At an Apple Premium Resellers, you get two years. The one year of Apple and the second of the Apple Premium Resellers store itself, because they have to by law.

Still don't get why Apple doesn't have to do the same with the Amsterdam based store... I'll be going to my Apple Premium Resellers store to get that extra year I don't have to pay extra for...

 

[daxomni]

No one has the "Right" to a free warranty, wether or not a particular government deems it to be. To say you have a "right" to this "free" warranty is to say that you have a right to a portion of another persons life, by threat of government imprisonment, to do your bidding. You dont want to pay for someone to fix your broken crap, you want to force someone to do it for no payment at all. there is a word for that. It is called slavery. Nothing is free, and to demand things for free is to trample the basis of individual liberty. Want free stuff? Move to Greece, see how that works out for you.

Apple is still free to charge whatever they want for any given product in order to cover the first two years of mandatory warranty coverage. They just aren't allowed to sell the same warranty twice by pretending that AppleCare is required for service before the first two years are up. What part of that is so confusing to you?

Oh, and you didn't just haaaaappen to be given an iPhone, You made the choice to purchase it. If you reget that decision, thats your own fault. but let me guess, you want the gooooovernment to insure you against your own bad decisions so you never have to regret anything again.

You should consider living in Nigeria. No silly government protections or social safety nets to worry about. Just a wide open market free of virtually any restrictions. Should be heaven on earth for someone of your mindset.

 

[gnasher729]

Wrong. The test is that of 'satisfactory quality' and fitness for purpose, as per Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) s.14:
Image

You missed completely the point of that post. Someone asked "this sale of goods act is all well and good, but what do I do if the seller doesn't want to fix my product"? Not "what is the law", but "what do I do". Knowing the law is of no help if you are in the shop, the seller says they are not going to fix the product, and you don't know what to do.

And in your nice quote you of course left out the one crucial point: That after six months, it is up to the customer to prove that the product was already sold with a defect.

 

[koruki]

So far my experience with Applecare have been amazing and beyond my expectations. I own other brands that offer longer warranties, but they push back and makes me feel like I'm abusing the system when one of their products are faulty. Its all good to offer longer warranties, but I think actually fulfilling those warranties in an orderly manner is quite important. I had a brand new samsung laptop which took 6 months to get a motherboard replaced. 6 months for a new laptop, thats pretty much worthless by the time it booted up properly.

 

[Jognt]

About time Apple gets set straight. Let's hope they do the same to Dell..

For the americans that are jealous of our warranty laws: In the Netherlands the two years warranty is a minimum. The more expensive the product is compared to others of the same type, the longer it should last.

In fact: After a lot of trouble getting a working iPhone 3gs (returned it 4 times) i received a free iPhone 4 32gb. this week even I got a new battery for my 2007 black macbook, for free.. Companies always tell you they can't help you, and that you have a warranty of 1 year. If you know your rights you can get pretty far though!

 

[gnasher729]

For the americans that are jealous of our warranty laws: In the Netherlands the two years warranty is a minimum. The more expensive the product is compared to others of the same type, the longer it should last.

I don't know the laws of the Netherlands. But I do know UK law, and there are plenty of people claiming you have two years warranty in the UK, and it is nonsense, because it leaves out one rather important detail: After six months it is up to the customer to _prove_ that the fault was there when they bought the product.

So what _exactly_ does a manufacturer or seller have to do in the Netherlands, and under which conditions?

 

[69650]

That's even better, but then how do you get Apple to respect the Sales of Goods Act? They generally turn you away after your 1-year warranty expires, saying that you'll have to pay for the repairs. What can you do?

Issue a claim through the small claims court. You can do it online, it's not expensive and you can add the court costs onto your claim and it doesn't take long. You can claim the goods did not meet reasonable expectations for longevity under the Sale of Goods Act. I've used it several times to get customers to pay and to seek a refund against faulty goods. If Apple loses the case and doesn't pay up the court will instruct bailiffs to enter their premises and take goods to the value of your claim.

----------

I don't know the laws of the Netherlands. But I do know UK law, and there are plenty of people claiming you have two years warranty in the UK, and it is nonsense, because it leaves out one rather important detail: After six months it is up to the customer to _prove_ that the fault was there when they bought the product.

That's not true. If you buy an electrical good you have a legal right to expect that product will last a reasonable amount of time before it breaks down. If you claim the product was faulty from the start then yes you're right you have to prove it. But if you buy a TV for £1000 and it dies after 18 months, providing you have used it correctly you can legally argue that it is unreasonable for such a product to last for such a short time.

If you issue a claim through the small claims court it's very simple. You make a statement regarding your claim in your application. If the retailer (don't forget your claim is with the retailer who sold you the goods not with the manufacturer) denies the claim, the case ends up before a judge in your local county court. It's very informal and the judge will make a ruling based on what is fair and reasonable. Most of the time the other side doesn’t turn up to argue their case, especially if they are a big retailer.

 

[ucmj22]

Apple is still free to charge whatever they want for any given product in order to cover the first two years of mandatory warranty coverage. They just aren't allowed to sell the same warranty twice by pretending that AppleCare is required for service before the first two years are up. What part of that is so confusing to you?

they arent selling the same warranty twice. I guarantee that the Goverment ordered free warranty is not the same as Apple Care. Apple Care is a specialized warranty program coupled with a full customer care experience.

You should consider living in Nigeria. No silly government protections or social safety nets to worry about. Just a wide open market free of virtually any restrictions. Should be heaven on earth for someone of your mindset.

... yeah... Because I really need goooooovernment to "protect" me from a company. Companies are not sneaking in to my home at night and kidnapping my children. If I have a relationship with a company it is because I sought out their product and purchased it. they didn't show up on my doorstep and force me, at the point of a gun to, to purchase something that didn't have the warranty I wanted. If you got duped, it's your fault for being a dope.

 

[brian1999]

You are covered by the distance selling regulations anyway in the UK.

 

[ucmj22]

P.S. If there were no buyers, there would be no Apple as well.

Congratulations! you have realized that capitalism at its simplest form is made of 2 parts, 1 part seller, and 1 part buyer!

 

[calb]

You missed completely the point of that post. Someone asked "this sale of goods act is all well and good, but what do I do if the seller doesn't want to fix my product"? Not "what is the law", but "what do I do". Knowing the law is of no help if you are in the shop, the seller says they are not going to fix the product, and you don't know what to do.

And in your nice quote you of course left out the one crucial point: That after six months, it is up to the customer to prove that the product was already sold with a defect.

You don't have to prove there was a defect. You simply have to satisfy s.14(2), which in practice is surprisingly easy and even after the first 6 months, you don't face much of a fight. Talk of latent defects is not useful other than using it as one tool for satisfying s.14(2).

And knowing the law is very useful in the shop: you average salesperson will look blank and mouth off company policy, but you can escalate with a manager who is more likely to have had suitable training in the area. Failing that you can write a letter or follow up with other formalities (such as small claims court) as listed in the links I posted.

You're making it much more complicated than it actually is; most companies are surprisingly cooperative if you are confident, persistent and know what you're talking about.

 

[gnasher729]

That's not true. If you buy an electrical good you have a legal right to expect that product will last a reasonable amount of time before it breaks down. If you claim the product was faulty from the start then yes you're right you have to prove it. But if you buy a TV for £1000 and it dies after 18 months, providing you have used it correctly you can legally argue that it is unreasonable for such a product to last for such a short time.

You just said exactly what I said. So how is what I said not true?

 

[SBlue1]

apple is indeed misleading the customers with this. when i bought my ipad a few years ago the apple store dude tried to sell me apple care stating that there is no other cover although there is a 24 months cover for all electronic goods in europe.

 

[daxomni]

they arent selling the same warranty twice. I guarantee that the Goverment ordered free warranty is not the same as Apple Care. Apple Care is a specialized warranty program coupled with a full customer care experience.

It's not nearly as special as you are, dear.

... yeah... Because I really need goooooovernment to "protect" me from a company. Companies are not sneaking in to my home at night and kidnapping my children. If I have a relationship with a company it is because I sought out their product and purchased it. they didn't show up on my doorstep and force me, at the point of a gun to, to purchase something that didn't have the warranty I wanted. If you got duped, it's your fault for being a dope.

Do you even read anything before replying to it? I can't wait until you're old enough to have a job and see the world through an adult's eyes.

 

[ucmj22]

It's not nearly as special as you are, dear.


Do you even read anything before replying to it? I can't wait until you're old enough to have a job and see the world through an adult's eyes.

... soooo you ran out of cohesive arguments and are beginning to see how childish your views really are, and thus reverted to rhetorical, fictitious personal attacks. When you grow up, own your own business and have to deal with profits, loss and government regulations, give me a call and I'll be glad to hear your apology.

 

[daxomni]

... soooo you ran out of cohesive arguments and are beginning to see how childish your views really are, and thus reverted to rhetorical, fictitious personal attacks. When you grow up, own your own business and have to deal with profits, loss and government regulations, give me a call and I'll be glad to hear your apology.

Please tell me the name of the business you're running so I can be impressed by your ability to succeed against all odds.

 

[69650]

You just said exactly what I said. So how is what I said not true?

I was trying to highlight the fact that you were confusing two totally separate issues. If you claim a product was faulty from the start then yes you have to prove it, but that was not the thrust of the debate. We were discussing what you do if your perfectly good iPad suddenly stops working after 2 years. The person concerned had a product that worked fine when he bought it but developed a fault after a period of time and Apple would not accept that his warranty lasted for longer than 1 year, which is clearly illegal under the UK Sale of Goods Act.

 

[gnasher729]

I was trying to highlight the fact that you were confusing two totally separate issues. If you claim a product was faulty from the start then yes you have to prove it, but that was not the thrust of the debate. We were discussing what you do if your perfectly good iPad suddenly stops working after 2 years. The person concerned had a product that worked fine when he bought it but developed a fault after a period of time and Apple would not accept that his warranty lasted for longer than 1 year, which is clearly illegal under the UK Sale of Goods Act.

That was exactly what this debate is about - people confusing "warranty" with their consumer rights. People say "Apple gives one year warranty, but consumer rights give you two years warranty", or worse, "Apple gives one year warranty, but is required by law to give two years warranty". And the difference between the "warranty" given by Apple and the "not quite warranty" that consumer rights give you is _exactly_ the requirement to prove that the product was faulty from the start, which gives sellers the possibility to refuse repairs if you can't prove it, or to get away with it if proving it seems too much work or too difficult or too costly.

And Apple's warranty _doesn't_ last longer than one year, and that is perfectly legal. Because what the Sale of Goods Act is about isn't a "warranty". They are two different things.

apple is indeed misleading the customers with this. when i bought my ipad a few years ago the apple store dude tried to sell me apple care stating that there is no other cover although there is a 24 months cover for all electronic goods in europe.

On the UK store website, Apple makes it very clear that Apple Care protection is in addition of your statutory rights. And as has been discussed ad nauseum, you surely have rights, but calling it "24 months cover for all electronic goods in europe" is misleading and may cause nasty surprises.

 

[ucmj22]

Please tell me the name of the business you're running so I can be impressed by your ability to succeed against all odds.

I was going to send you a link to my website, but you dont accept PM's


EDIT: never mind, it wouldn't let me because I wasn't logged in....

 

[ucmj22]

If there are additional costs such as this it will just be worked in to a higher price for everyone.

Don't get why so many outside the EU think this is a bad thing.

This is exactly why... certain countries want things for free, but fail to realize that nothing is free. so EU countries get free stuff while the rest of the productive world pays for it.

if you buy something and dont like it, tough luck you should have researched it before you bought it. If it breaks in 367days, fix it! The general rule on essentially any goods a person can buy is that, the more you pay for it, the more it will cost you to repair or replace it.... not the opposite. a Ferrari costs between $200,000 and $500,000 and requires roughly $10,000 a year in maintenance cost. You dont hear a ferrari owner complaining that the maintenance isn't free! Apple is the Ferrari of computers. You dont want to pay for the upkeep then get mad when it breaks... whose fault is that? If you cant afford to keep a Ferrari, dont buy one.

 

[daxomni]

I was going to send you a link to my website, but you dont accept PM's EDIT: never mind, it wouldn't let me because I wasn't logged in....

There was no PM, no name, no website. Nothing.

This is exactly why... certain countries want things for free, but fail to realize that nothing is free. so EU countries get free stuff while the rest of the productive world pays for it.

We've already explained that Apple is free to raise the initial purchase cost to pay for the first two years of warranty coverage. The fact that you still can't find a way to comprehend that isn't our problem. I'm so glad someone as perpetually dense as you is not on my side of the issue, or I might have to reconsider my position.

 

[ucmj22]

that isn't our problem.

hey, now there is a good argument

TRANSLATION:
I recognize that you are correct that my actions have an adverse effect on others...but, eh, screw'em.