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European Countries Up Pressure On iTunes, FairPlay

Bye-bye to EU iTS?

If this all goes through, is it possible that the EU, or just the countries mentioned here, would see their iTunes Stores disappear? I mean even though "good business is where you find it," if Apple's content suppliers aren't willing to allow digital sales in countries where DRM is considered "illegal," - and let's not forget that they are under no obligation to sell through iTunes, or anywhere - what is there to sell?

This is just a hypothetical, a discussion starter.

Personally, I have no problems with DRM for many of the reasons stated in this thread already, and unlike others, I don't feel that my "rights" include everything I want.

As for the DRM-protected CDs (not the Sony spyware ones): I would have been fine with that if they had been able to do it in such a way that was within the accepted standard for audio CDs. It wasn't.

We don't own the copyrights, no matter if it is vinyl, cassette, CD, MD, DAT, MP3, or AAC, etc... We enter into a license agreement that allows us to use the physical copy we have in a prescribed way.
 
I think that Apple would be absolutely wrong to maintain their current closed iTunes/iPod system IF they were the ONLY online media store and portable player available. I hear a lot of people complaining that Apple restricts their choice and impinges on their freedoms because they can't play their digital music on whatever device they choose. Apple is doing no such thing. There are several online music stores and portable players from which to choose. You absolutely have choice here. iTunes and the iPod may be the best game in town, but they're not the only games in town. Feel free to purchase music from someplace else and play it on any other player you wish.

This situation seems analogous to purchasing software for PC vs. Mac. Let's say I had a PC, and purchased tons of applications to run on it. Later, I decide to switch to a Mac, but I can't run any of those PC programs on it. Well, I purchased them, I plan on abiding by the license to install them on only one computer, why can't that computer be a Mac and not a PC? You know going in that you can't run PC programs on a Mac (emulation and virtualization exceptions noted), just as you know that iTunes media can't be played on any other player than the iPod. Your rights as a consumer haven't been violated. You still have choice. You still have your freedom.
 
Stella said:
Erm, I DO grasp it, actually!

I believe in consumer rights / freedom, not consumer lock in.
Click to expand...

Then don't buy from iTMS! Then you can lead your happy little consumer rights life!

Apple in no way hides the limitations on your iTMS purchases. I knew from day one i would be locked into iTMS and iPod i took that conscious decision with the millions of others all over the world. It would therefore appear that a lot of people disagree or at least don't care about "consumer rights/freedom" you go on about. If we don't want to be locked in we will buy elsewhere....
 
Small White Car said:
I've probably spent about $2,000 at the iTunes music store. So for me to switch to a Zune I'd either have to lose out on that music, buy it again, or find a way to break the DRM.

So my current barrier to buying a non-Apple player is at $2,000 and rising. That seems like "unfairly restricting consumer choice" to me.

Now, I don't care since I'm never going to buy a non-Apple player. But just because I don't care doesn't mean it's not a problem for someone else.
Click to expand...

The thing is that you choose to first buy an iPod and then to purchase $2,000 worth of music. You had choices and you made the right one (good for you!).

My little niece and nephew both received Disney MP3 players for Christmas. They don't support DRM or any type or even unprotected AAC, only MP3 and MS Media player. My sister were shocked, even thought the box stated this. In my opinion they made a bad decision.
 
Stella said:
A. I wonder how many people whined about those DRM protected CDs that had the side effect of not being able to play on certain CD Players, i.e., car CD players, portal cd players were often affected

B. I wonder how many people in (A) think that Apple are in their rights to keep iTMS music tied to Apple devices only?!
( kind of two faced , if you ask me!)

In scenario (A) - the media player came first ( i.e., cd players, iPod )- and then the affected media ( i.e., crippled ( drm ) CDs and fairplay music ) came second..."

What do you think of scenario (A)?

Do you think its right that one of those drm'ed CDs wouldn't play on your cd player ( even though the package said - this is protected )?
Click to expand...

I'm going to answer this question so you can stop bringing it up.

A.) The copy protection that was put on those CDs was outside of the Compact Disk standard as published by Phillips. They were sold as a CD when in actuallity they were not CDs. This is false advertising and that's what was wrong with it.

B.) I think it is perfectly within Apple's rights to sell services that only work with their devices (in the original format that you bought it in.) There is no false advertising going on, I know what I am buying and where I can use it when I buy from the iTMS. I can chose to not buy it if I don't like the restrictions.

The reason that A is different than B is that A is not representing itself in a truthful way. B is.
 
Ah, your from rip off britain, no wonder you have that attitude!

eenu said:
Then don't buy from iTMS! Then you can lead your happy little consumer rights life!

Apple in no way hides the limitations on your iTMS purchases. I knew from day one i would be locked into iTMS and iPod i took that conscious decision with the millions of others all over the world. It would therefore appear that a lot of people disagree or at least don't care about "consumer rights/freedom" you go on about. If we don't want to be locked in we will buy elsewhere....
Click to expand...

That is a good response
maxp1 said:
The reason that A is different than B is that A is not representing itself in a truthful way. B is.
Click to expand...
 
Stella said:
Ah, your from rip off britain, no wonder you have that attitude!



That is a good response
Click to expand...

I could say a lot about you being from Canada but i won't lower myself. At the end of the day you can't argue with what i have said! The restrictions have been on the iTMS since day one. Consumers have made the decision to buy that media with those restrictions END OF STORY.

I think the guy that posted about the transition to mac from PC put it very well. So well done to that man

And the 'GOOD RESPONSE' is the same as what i have been saying to you time and time again! iTMS has put no one under any false illusions!
 
Yes! A Protected AAC file should be thought as a different format as an MP3. They are different things, just as a Cassette tape is different than a CD. Alright I know what you thinking a cassette is analog and a CD is digital. Well, then let's compare it to DVD, BlueRay and DVD-HD. All digital content, but of varying quality. A BlueRay disc will not play on a DVD player. But I want it to, tough! The same could be said about Protected AAC. AAC is not the same as a MP3.

Stella said:
NO!

Ever since god created computers, there have been different systems - most of each, incompatible with each other.

Music, on the other hand, has always been compatible with the media type and player type.

i.e., Tapes -> works with any tape player
Records - works with record players
CDs - ..

There is nothing different about digital music. The format is different, but thats the only difference. Consumers should not be locked in.

Let me refer you back to a previous post:

"
A. I wonder how many people whined about those DRM protected CDs that had the side effect of not being able to play on certain CD Players, i.e., car CD players, portal cd players were often affected

B. I wonder how many people in (A) think that Apple are in their rights to keep iTMS music tied to Apple devices only?!
( kind of two faced , if you ask me!)

In scenario (A) - the media player came first ( i.e., cd players, iPod )- and then the affected media ( i.e., crippled ( drm ) CDs and fairplay music ) came second..."

What do you think of scenario (A)?

Do you think its right that one of those drm'ed CDs wouldn't play on your cd player ( even though the package said - this is protected )?
Click to expand...
 
Evil Government

Ok, if you know that when you buy music from the iTMS you can only play it on your iPod, and still you choose to do so, what is wrong with that? You are agreeing to the limitations when you buy music from the iTMS. If you don't like the idea, buy a CD and rip it!

Also, people think that monopolies are bad, that is not necessarily true. Monopolies are bad when they use their monopoly power to eliminate competition (Microsoft using their monopoly in OS to eliminate Netscape).

I don't see how Apple is using their monopoly power in the digital music player market, to eliminate competition. The same applies to the iTMS. The only problem I see is that by buying from the iTMS you are sort of compromising to using iPods forever, since the music won't play on some other device (Yes, you can rip it to CDs then back to mp3s but try doing that with a collection of 5,000 songs). But this is technically what happens with VHS. You invest in a collection of movies, and when DVDs come out, you can't play your VHS on your new DVD, you are locked to VHS, but you knew that was going to happen. And its not like the government can force the Movie Studios to trade all your VHS for DVDs. I know its not a perfect analogy, but its hard to find one.

My point is that Apple is not doing wrong because:

a) Consumers are choosing to lock themselves to an environment, Apple is not forcing them.
b) Apple is not using their monopoly power to eliminate competition.
c) Consumers still have an exit (a complicated one) to take the DRM from their music collection

What would be wrong? If iTunes put DRM on your mp3s as soon as you add them to your library so you could only play them on the iPod (Zune squirting anyone?)

In the ideal world, there would be no DRM, but then again, there would be no piracy. This is the next best thing in my opinion. Eventually some punk will come out with a program that takes the DRM from your music collection, so be patient =)
 
eenu said:
I could say a lot about you being from Canada but i won't lower myself....
Click to expand...

You lower yourself by taking that position. Rip-off Britain is the sad reality and the rest of the world knows it. I'm a resident of rip-off Britain who has visited Canada twice in his life and there's no comparison.
 
Having lived in both countries, I can say Canada is *vastly* superior to the UK.

The iTunes + iPod backlash is coming, and it won't be too soon until Apple is:
(a) forced to license out
(b) licenses fairplay out before (a)

At the time of iTMS, consumers had little choice. iTunes or Napster - which didn't work with the most popular media player at the time.

As digital music matures Apple will have its hands forced, one way or the other. Just image being able to buy music CDs from HMV and no where else?

BTW - its been a blast debating with you :)

eenu said:
I could say a lot about you being from Canada but i won't lower myself. At the end of the day you can't argue with what i have said! The restrictions have been on the iTMS since day one. Consumers have made the decision to buy that media with those restrictions END OF STORY.

I think the guy that posted about the transition to mac from PC put it very well. So well done to that man

And the 'GOOD RESPONSE' is the same as what i have been saying to you time and time again! iTMS has put no one under any false illusions!
Click to expand...
 
eenu said:
And the 'GOOD RESPONSE' is the same as what i have been saying to you time and time again! iTMS has put no one under any false illusions!
Click to expand...

Why is this even an argument? Would you also want Apple to stop putting out updates for OS X? So you get 10.4 and that's it until 10.5 comes out?

After all, people who bought Tiger knew what they were getting!

Why is it your desire for nothing to change after it's bougt? Seems to me that change can be good. Why be opposed to ANY and ALL changes?
 
jmbear said:
In the ideal world, there would be no DRM, but then again, there would be no piracy. This is the next best thing in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Really?,After an imaginary "perfect world" I see a world where Fairplay plays on other devices AND Microsofts DRM plays on iPods as being 2nd best.

Then the current situtaion as 3rd best, not 2nd.
 
Stella said:
Having lived in both countries, I can say Canada is *vastly* superior to the UK.
Click to expand...

Having lived in both i can say that is cack! I am not claiming Britain is good at all - in fact i will be happy to leave but Canada is not 'Vastly' superior.

And as for the rip off thing, i used to think the US was cheap as chips until you see all the hidden charges......tolls, health insurance etc etc. When i worked it out it bascially wasn't much cheaper than living in the UK. So something that appears cheap on the surface isn't all its cracked up to be just as something that is 'rip off' on the surface isn't unnecessarily so rip off! There are many European country's that are far more 'rip off' than the UK!
 
At last! I hope the UK, France & Germany also pressure Apple, because these are three markets Apple simply can not ignore.

The whole download industry should just standardise a format and use it.

Anyone defending Apple, in my opinion, is extremely deluded. Don't defend a billion dollar corporation at the expense of your own consumer rights - It's very obscure. Some claim iTunes provides users with the best consumer "experience" - If this truly is the case, Apple would loose no sales to a standardised format.
 
Small White Car said:
Why is this even an argument? Would you also want Apple to stop putting out updates for OS X? So you get 10.4 and that's it until 10.5 comes out?

After all, people who bought Tiger knew what they were getting!

Why is it your desire for nothing to change after it's bougt? Seems to me that change can be good. Why be opposed to ANY and ALL changes?
Click to expand...

Apple is very much where it is now thanks to the money it has made on ipods.....without ipods there would be no iTMS as its not a money maker for Apple.....so give iTMS to everyman and his dog and apple suddenly reduces a huge income stream. I don't need to go into how this will affect apple and its future development as i am sure you are clever enough to work that out.

Its also thanks to the ipod and iTMS that apple is where it is at in terms of being popular

Without hardware sales Apple would be in the toilet pan.
 
I really don't fault Apple or MS or any of the other content providers for the disaster that is DRM. This includes music, movies and software as well.

The problem stems from the people who actually own the content... the studios that make each of the products. They've gotten extremely greedy, such to the point that they're treating their customers like theives... gulity until proven innocent, but without the chance to prove innocence. That's the reason that DRM exists in the first place.

The way I see it, Apple et. al. are stuck in the middle between the consumers who don't want the DRM and would like to have the fair rights usage allowed by law, and the studios who'd like to make it illegal to play a CD in your car with someone who doesn't own the CD and/or make it illegal to invite a friend over to play the hot new game/watch the latest movie.

"If you legally acquire music, you need to have the right to manage it on all other devices that you own."
- Steve Jobs

Sure, Steve might feel that way, heck, he probably does or he wouldn't have said it. But what else came after that in the interview??? We don't know. For all we know, it could have been "... But the F***ing recording industry won't let us put it out without any form of protection, so take your pick. No DRM, no music. No music, no iTMS.

They could have scrapped the iTMS all together and then we definitely wouldn't be having this argument. The iPod might not have been so successful and Apple wouldn't be enjoying it's sudden popularity right now. But Apple weighed the good and the bad, and in the end, they gave us the best possible combination: good store, fair prices, great music/media player.

RE: The Wii VC games. They're tied to the Nintendo store account (username and password) if your Wii is bricked, you can re-download the games for free using the same user/pw combination. Which is one thing the Nintendo store does better than the iTMS.
 
eenu said:
so give iTMS to everyman and his dog and apple suddenly reduces a huge income stream.
Click to expand...

Why?

With their massive market Apple can demand lower prices on components.

They currently sell iPods at pretty much the exact same price as their competitors (while making more profit) and the design and function are better! And if you look at the numbers of iPods and songs sold, it's clear that the majority of iPod owners don't use the iTunes store at all.

So why, exactly, would iPod sales change much at all?
 
jmbear said:
But this is technically what happens with VHS. You invest in a collection of movies, and when DVDs come out, you can't play your VHS on your new DVD, you are locked to VHS, but you knew that was going to happen.
Click to expand...

Yes, but you can copy the video from VHS tapes to DVDs with no complications involved, besides the purely technical ones.

Whereas to copy DRM'd music from iTunes to any other player, you have to go through a completely unnecessary step, that is put there just to make it harder for you to do so.

What if there was a requirement to copy only one song at a time, would you still be OK with that? What if you had to click on a picture of an iPod 10 times for each song? (stupid, I know, but technically just as stupid as CD burning...)

Where is the limit? How complicated can they make it for you? I say only what is absolutely necessary because of technical constraints.

I'm totally OK with Fairplay, if the possibility of export is available without the need to burn the CDs or any other unnecessary step.
 
on another note. Lets say Apple is forced to remove the DRM from the content in said countries. How exactly would that affect my previously purchased music?

How would the DRM be removed from the thousands of protected ACCs i have? And how would apple stop people in other countries outside the ruling using the software to remove the DRM
 
There is absolutely nothing stopped the market players ( i.e., record companies, software compies et al ) from coming up with a standard DRM - iso standard for DRM.

Just like for other meduims and products.

DRM is no different.

I wouldn't buy that any 'iso' standard more prone to hacking than Fairplay is currently because its so widespread, and fairplay isn't being attacked on a daily basis causing no end of grieve to Apple.

eenu said:
on another note. Lets say Apple is forced to remove the DRM from the content in said countries. How exactly would that affect my previously purchased music?

How would the DRM be removed from the thousands of protected ACCs i have? And how would apple stop people in other countries outside the ruling using the software to remove the DRM
Click to expand...

These countries want interopability, not the removal of fairplay.
 
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