Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[AJTC]

I thought the SE 3 rumours changed to it just being the same phone as current but with 5g and a new processor?

I hope not, and you would think Apple would want to end the old designs as the Mini 6 got a redesign. But ipad 9 exists so I'm not so sure at the entry level.

Oh no, I didn’t know about this. I hope not. Surely it would be more effort to add the 5G antennas to the older design than to something like the 11 design which isn’t too distant from the 12/13 design.

After seeing people’s reactions to the 13 Pro I’m not hopeful about that phone so I really do hope a newer design SE is on the way.

 

[jm31828]

The 13 Pro was alright at first, but I eventually started getting bad headaches and ended up with some nausea yesterday. I'm incredibly sensitive to flicker, so this doesn't necessarily mean the screen is bad though. I've never been more thankful for my 8 Plus, lol.

Also, I was able to use a light measurement tool to scan the 13 Pro screen and compare it to the XS Max screen, there's definitely a huge difference (especially at lower brightnesses). I'm not entirely sure how to properly interpret the results, I'll leave that to someone more educated on this stuff 🙂

If you click the images, you can scroll through and see the flicker rates at 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, and 0% brightness.

A few caveats:
-This was taken by opening a solid white image and scanning it. The numbers do change depending on what kind of color you scan, so this isn't the complete picture.
-This doesn't take any kind of motion into account (Scrolling, UI animations, videos, etc)
-True Tone, Night Shift, White Point, any any other display accommodation was turned off on both devices.
-Not sure why the XS Max 75% Brightness pic shows no flicker frequency, I think I took the screenshot before it properly registered.

Thanks for sharing! What type of light measurement tool did you use for this?
I'd love to see this data on the regular 13 and 13 Mini as well, I know it is what NoteBook Check uses in their assessment of PWM each year on these devices (which has not yet been released).

 

[TDDM]

@TDDM You should also post a screen shot of a graph taken with the light measurement tool of the 8 Plus too so we can all see how nasty these OLED screens really are in comparison

Sure, here you go. It's like night and day tbh, especially if you look at the pulsation frequency %.

Thanks for sharing! What type of light measurement tool did you use for this?
I'd love to see this data on the regular 13 and 13 Mini as well, I know it is what NoteBook Check uses in their assessment of PWM each year on these devices (which has not yet been released).

I used the Radex Lupin + accompanying software. Next time I go to the Apple Store, I can quickly check the 13 and 13 mini as well, though I'll only be able to get the pulsation frequency.

I can only get this level of detail by scanning a device while the Radex is plugged into a PC, unfortunately. The pulse % should be enough to get a rough idea of how bad it is though.

 

[AJTC]

Sure, here you go. It's like night and day tbh, especially if you look at the pulsation frequency %.

Wow the difference!

I do wonder if at some point it will be discovered that this flicker over time causes some kind of damage to a person’s health.

I had my iPhone X for 10 months before I realised it was the cause of my migraines in 2018. But I definitely didn’t experience them right after I bought it or experience eye strain initially. It got worse over time. Those 10 months of potential damage caused me to experience severe effects of the iPhone 13 within a few days. Surely something health wise was damaged by the 10 months of use in the past which has heightened my sensitivity to PWM.

 

[trali]

The 13 Pro was alright at first, but I eventually started getting bad headaches and ended up with some nausea yesterday. I'm incredibly sensitive to flicker, so this doesn't necessarily mean the screen is bad though. I've never been more thankful for my 8 Plus, lol.

Also, I was able to use a light measurement tool to scan the 13 Pro screen and compare it to the XS Max screen, there's definitely a huge difference (especially at lower brightnesses). I'm not entirely sure how to properly interpret the results, I'll leave that to someone more educated on this stuff 🙂

If you click the images, you can scroll through and see the flicker rates at 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, and 0% brightness.

A few caveats:
-This was taken by opening a solid white image and scanning it. The numbers do change depending on what kind of color you scan, so this isn't the complete picture.
-This doesn't take any kind of motion into account (Scrolling, UI animations, videos, etc)
-True Tone, Night Shift, White Point, any any other display accommodation was turned off on both devices.
-Not sure why the XS Max 75% Brightness pic shows no flicker frequency, I think I took the screenshot before it properly registered.

I’ll try to put it simple, I promise🙂

1. Flickering light could be bad for your eyes and/or brain. Every individual reacts to flicker differently.

2. After certain frequency you can’t see flicker because it’s too fast. But up to the frequencies of 300 Hz (times per second) your brain will continue to react: there are brain impulses with the same frequency as flashing light which you see (established in one old USSR research, therefore in Russia there are no rules and guidelines which restrict modulation parameters on frequencies above 300 Hz).
However, modern researches suggest that frequencies up to 1250 Hz could be (possibly maybe) dangerous/could be sensed.

3. Flickering light has other parameters, such as how ‘bright’ and how ‘dark’ it gets during one oscillation cycle. Different metrics have been developed to measure this intensity variation. For example, lets take Percent Flicker or Modulation (%):

Percent Flicker = Mod% = 100*(Emax-Emin)/(Emax+Emin), where Emax and Emin are maximum and minimum illuminance during one cycle.

But this metric doesn’t represent how illuminance changing, in other words, how long light stays on or off. That’s why in several countries the Pulsation Coefficient is used:

Kp = 100*(Emax-Emin)/2Eavg, where Eavg is the average illuminance during one cycle. It is not just (Emax+Emin)/2, because your should take time-weighted values.

Ideally, for screens, Kp should be below 5%.

4. iPhone 13 Pro/Max has PWM frequency 480 Hz, which is more than:
240 Hz in iPhone X/Xs;
290 Hz in iPhone 11 Pro;
280 Hz in iPhone 12 Pro;
240 Hz in iPhone 12/mini.

And that‘s definitely a good thing. Samsung modern flagships have 240 Hz.

5. iPhone 13 Pro/Max has maximum Kp (pulsation coefficient) about 50%, which is not great, but way better than previous iPhones (and modern Samsungs), where it was more than 110%.

Summary: iPhone 13 Pro/Max screen has greater PWM frequency (480 Hz) and lower pulsation coefficient (50%) than previous OLED-iPhones or modern Samsung phones.
It is better, but still not perfect.

Here are screen oscillations of iPhone 13 Pro and Samsung Galaxy Fold3 (with brightness settings at their worst Kp).
You can see that iPhone’s illuminance goes from (roughly) 78 to 29 lx at 480 Hz, while Samsung’s illuminance varies more harshly from 68 all the way down to 4 lx at 240 Hz.

 

[Defying]

I

I’ll try to put it simple, I promise🙂

1. Flickering light could be bad for your eyes and/or brain. Every individual reacts to flicker differently.

2. After certain frequency you can’t see flicker because it’s too fast. But up to the frequencies of 300 Hz (times per second) your brain will continue to react: there are brain impulses with the same frequency as flashing light which you see (established in one old USSR research, therefore in Russia there are no rules and guidelines which restrict modulation parameters on frequencies above 300 Hz).
However, modern researches suggest that frequencies up to 1250 Hz could be (possibly maybe) dangerous/could be sensed.

3. Flickering light has other parameters, such as how ‘bright’ and how ‘dark’ it gets during one oscillation cycle. Different metrics have been developed to measure this intensity variation. For example, lets take Percent Flicker or Modulation (%):

Percent Flicker = Mod% = 100*(Emax-Emin)/(Emax+Emin), where Emax and Emin are maximum and minimum illuminance during one cycle.

But this metric doesn’t represent how illuminance changing, in other words, how long light stays on or off. That’s why in several countries the Pulsation Coefficient is used:

Kp = 100*(Emax-Emin)/2Eavg, where Eavg is the average illuminance during one cycle. It is not just (Emax+Emin)/2, because your should take time-weighted values.

Ideally, for screens, Kp should be below 5%.

4. iPhone 13 Pro/Max has PWM frequency 480 Hz, which is more than:
240 Hz in iPhone X/Xs;
290 Hz in iPhone 11 Pro;
280 Hz in iPhone 12 Pro;
240 Hz in iPhone 12/mini.

And that‘s definitely a good thing. Samsung modern flagships have 240 Hz.

5. iPhone 13 Pro/Max has maximum Kp (pulsation coefficient) about 50%, which is not great, but way better than previous iPhones (and modern Samsungs), where it was more than 110%.

Summary: iPhone 13 Pro/Max screen has greater PWM frequency (480 Hz) and lower pulsation coefficient (50%) than previous OLED-iPhones or modern Samsung phones.
It is better, but still not perfect.

Here are screen oscillations of iPhone 13 Pro and Samsung Galaxy Fold3 (with brightness settings at their worst Kp).
You can see that iPhone’s illuminance goes from (roughly) 78 to 29 lx at 480 Hz, while Samsung’s illuminance varies more harshly from 68 all the way down to 4 lx at 240 Hz.

Which brightness setting resulted in the worst Kp% on the 13 Pro?

 

[trali]

I

Which brightness setting resulted in the worst Kp% on the 13 Pro?

I don’t remember the exact value since I was testing at the store, but I’ll do it again and will make a photo of brightness level.

One more thing: screen color in the area covered by sensor also matters while getting Kp/Mod% values.

 

[Defying]

I don’t remember the exact value since I was testing at the store, but I’ll do it again and will make a photo of brightness level.

One more thing: screen color in the area covered by sensor also matters while getting Kp/Mod% values.

Interesting, thank you! I pretty much exclusively use my phone at 0% due to photosensitivity from PCS which is why I’m curious, used a 12 mini prior to my 13 Pro and just realized how much the 12 mini flickers in 240FPS slow motion. Surely if I used that, this phone has to be better lol

I posted the videos in the iPhone 13 thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...icker-at-all-brightness.2312862/post-30354618

 

[now i see it]

I’ll try to put it simple, I promise

Thanks for the explanation. Can’t say I could pass a test on PWM and get an “A” but your explanation helped

 

[TDDM]

I’ll try to put it simple, I promise🙂

Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this, it’s extremely helpful to further understand this issue. I’m definitely encouraged by the fact that the screens *seem* better this year, hopefully we can continue to see improvements like this 🙂

 

[orange23]

I’ll try to put it simple, I promise🙂

1. Flickering light could be bad for your eyes and/or brain. Every individual reacts to flicker differently.

2. After certain frequency you can’t see flicker because it’s too fast. But up to the frequencies of 300 Hz (times per second) your brain will continue to react: there are brain impulses with the same frequency as flashing light which you see (established in one old USSR research, therefore in Russia there are no rules and guidelines which restrict modulation parameters on frequencies above 300 Hz).
However, modern researches suggest that frequencies up to 1250 Hz could be (possibly maybe) dangerous/could be sensed.

3. Flickering light has other parameters, such as how ‘bright’ and how ‘dark’ it gets during one oscillation cycle. Different metrics have been developed to measure this intensity variation. For example, lets take Percent Flicker or Modulation (%):

Percent Flicker = Mod% = 100*(Emax-Emin)/(Emax+Emin), where Emax and Emin are maximum and minimum illuminance during one cycle.

But this metric doesn’t represent how illuminance changing, in other words, how long light stays on or off. That’s why in several countries the Pulsation Coefficient is used:

Kp = 100*(Emax-Emin)/2Eavg, where Eavg is the average illuminance during one cycle. It is not just (Emax+Emin)/2, because your should take time-weighted values.

Ideally, for screens, Kp should be below 5%.

4. iPhone 13 Pro/Max has PWM frequency 480 Hz, which is more than:
240 Hz in iPhone X/Xs;
290 Hz in iPhone 11 Pro;
280 Hz in iPhone 12 Pro;
240 Hz in iPhone 12/mini.

And that‘s definitely a good thing. Samsung modern flagships have 240 Hz.

5. iPhone 13 Pro/Max has maximum Kp (pulsation coefficient) about 50%, which is not great, but way better than previous iPhones (and modern Samsungs), where it was more than 110%.

Summary: iPhone 13 Pro/Max screen has greater PWM frequency (480 Hz) and lower pulsation coefficient (50%) than previous OLED-iPhones or modern Samsung phones.
It is better, but still not perfect.

Here are screen oscillations of iPhone 13 Pro and Samsung Galaxy Fold3 (with brightness settings at their worst Kp).
You can see that iPhone’s illuminance goes from (roughly) 78 to 29 lx at 480 Hz, while Samsung’s illuminance varies more harshly from 68 all the way down to 4 lx at 240 Hz.

I like your scientific approach on this. It clearly seems to be better than before (FINALLY), however still much room to be improved for 14!

We hope Apple do not ignore us PWM sensitive consumers anymore as we represent 10% or even much higher users population.

 

[super chimp]

Pulse Width Modulation: instead of sending less power to the display to change the brightness, they make it flicker between off and on.

Sorry I am probably being dense but are you saying the 13 Pro is better or worse than the 11 Pro here?

 

[brig2221]

I made an appointment at my local Apple Store with the Genius Bar to have the battery on my iPhone 11 replaced last night. Given that I am going to be forced to keep this phone for potentially a long time, I wanted to get it back to new condition as the battery health was down to 80%.

It took forever for me to get the phone back, so I had plenty of time to spend in the Apple store. I picked up a 13 Pro Max and was intent on just spending 10-15 minutes with it to see what happened.

Unfortunately for me, what happened was that 2-3 minutes in, I could immediately notice pressure in my eyes that wasn't there before, and put the phone down. I knew it was a problem at that point and wasn't going to purposefully make it worse and give myself a splitting headache by looking at it any longer.

Yes, we PWM sufferers are a minority of the user base, but I can't imagine that we are that tiny based on what I see around the internet and these threads on MacRumors. I still find it hard to believe that I'm going to be locked out of the iPhone ecosystem for a significant period of time, if not permanently.

 

[now i see it]

It’s very likely that there’s countless people getting iPhone OLED headaches but they haven’t connected the dots yet. Clueless that it’s the flickering display that’s causing their pain

 

[dimitricook]

Iphone 13 pro: first signs are not good, after 2 min of usage i got extreme dry eyes and all day i have a light but very irritating headache. Because i wasn't very fit the day before i let the iphone 13 rest for 2-3 days and test again when i feel top fit to not mistake any feelings 🙂

 

[now i see it]

I still find it hard to believe that I'm going to be locked out of the iPhone ecosystem for a significant period of time, if not permanently.

You’re not locked out, you just can’t use the latest phones. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of the LCD iPhones (8, 8+, SE2, XR, 11) and none of them use PWM.

 

[brig2221]

You’re not locked out, you just can’t use the latest phones. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of the LCD iPhones (8, 8+, SE2, XR, 11) and none of them use PWM.

I should have qualified the statement, I can't believe that I will be locked out of all future iPhone releases. It's not a huge deal right now as the iPhone 11 still works great and I have no problem continuing to use it. That said, at some point this phone will become long in the tooth as far as performance goes, and will eventually not receive iOS updates. Yes, that's still a good 3-4 years away, but my point is that I don't want to be forced to be using a 6 year old device 4 years from now.

I guess they will update the SE at some point, but I will not be going back to a smaller screen device with a home button.

 

[AJTC]

It’s very likely that there’s countless people getting iPhone OLED headaches but they haven’t connected the dots yet. Clueless that it’s the flickering display that’s causing their pain

Me for 10 months in 2018. I was put on migraine medication which I’d only been on once 10 years earlier.

I happened to stumble across this PWM thread and connected the dots. And if I’m right that it gets worse over time it won’t be long until non-Pro iPhone 12 and 13 users start to encounter this which is a less niche market and we could see this issue more widespread when people make the connection that their migraines are caused by their phone.

 

[karinatwork]

I have a Youtube video about this on my channel and you would not believe how many people are having problems with these screens. It still surprises the heck out of me when they message me (after two years) and tell me about how shocked they were to find out that it may be the OLED screens that are hurting them. We are in the minority, but there are a LOT of people who have these issues. A lot more than it seems.

 

[jimmy_uk]

An interesting read you may not have seen, especially for those that are new to the subject:

Flicker, the display affliction

All screens flicker to some degree, but what causes it on smartphones in particular, and how does DXOMARK test for it?

www.dxomark.com

 

[jimmy_uk]

Yes, we PWM sufferers are a minority of the user base, but I can't imagine that we are that tiny based on what I see around the internet and these threads on MacRumors.

Reddit boards, Samsung forums, and many others, are filled with comments from people having issues with OLED displays on their phones and laptops from multiple manufacturers (although Samsung does produce the majority of displays being used).

The minority is not as small as people want to make out - but there are some who just want to silence the issues because they either don't experience it, or because a scientist, government body or news outlet hasn't told them what to think. The majority of the reddit responses, for example, are toxic almost immediately! I see that alot of this creeping into this forum.

 

[karinatwork]

The majority of the reddit responses, for example, are toxic almost immediately! I see that alot of this creeping into this forum.

There are people who don't want to eat gluten, people who feel sick from smelling perfume, people who believe Wifi is damaging their brains, people who think that fluoride causes mental illness, and then it's just slippery slope from there. We're lumped in with the "crazies" who are perceived to have imaginary illnesses and wear tin foil hats. Hey, I get it. I look at the people with concerns about vaccines and just roll my eyes. How can I expect to be taken seriously if I am not willing to do the same for others?

 

[AJTC]

An interesting read you may not have seen, especially for those that are new to the subject:

Flicker, the display affliction

All screens flicker to some degree, but what causes it on smartphones in particular, and how does DXOMARK test for it?

www.dxomark.com

Thanks for the link. Sending this to anyone who thinks I’m crazy which is almost everyone I talk to about this who doesn’t work with technology.

 

[JM]

I went to apple store today for 30 minutes and looked at 13 mini and 13 pro (not max, not 13) and got the familiar eye stress, but it wasn’t DEBILITATING eye pain like the 12 mini.

so, perhaps it seems true the 13 is better this year than the 12.

I still would like to try owning it for a week or two to see what’s up, but I am now in love with the ProMotion and could not stand the 60hz refresh of the mini comparatively. Oh it’s sooooo niiiiiice.

so now instead of the mini, I gotta go rationalize spending $1000 on a cellphone :/ I would deplete my spending cash if I did that right now though (don’t ask. It’s self imposed 🤣) maybe a nice Christmas present of something if there’s any phones left then with all the production delays I keep hearing about 🙄

 

[TDDM]

I have a Youtube video about this on my channel and you would not believe how many people are having problems with these screens. It still surprises the heck out of me when they message me (after two years) and tell me about how shocked they were to find out that it may be the OLED screens that are hurting them. We are in the minority, but there are a LOT of people who have these issues. A lot more than it seems.

Reddit boards, Samsung forums, and many others, are filled with comments from people having issues with OLED displays on their phones and laptops from multiple manufacturers (although Samsung does produce the majority of displays being used).

The minority is not as small as people want to make out - but there are some who just want to silence the issues because they either don't experience it, or because a scientist, government body or news outlet hasn't told them what to think. The majority of the reddit responses, for example, are toxic almost immediately! I see that alot of this creeping into this forum.

Yep. I don't want to go too off topic, since the thread is mainly about OLED and PWM - But in my opinion, this is all a part of a much larger conversation about flicker.

The majority of people seem to be okay with flicker. A small subset of users are affected by egregious flicker, such as on OLED displays. An even smaller subset are also affected by other non-OLED devices like MacBooks, Windows computers, iPads, iPhones, Android Phones, etc. It seems like we're all on a spectrum of sensitivity, and the devices we can use depends on where we are on that spectrum. For example, I can't use any iPhone past the 8+, any iPad past the 7th Gen, or any MacBook past the 2015 Pro. It's incredibly debilitating, and it's frustrating that there seems to be so little awareness.

I really hope we can get this issue some attention and hopefully nudge things in a flicker-free direction, this absolutely is something that needs to be taken seriously.