Fair Labor Association Offers Initial Impressions on Foxconn Audit as iPads Used to Collect Survey Data

[StyxMaker]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/9A405)

It's very easy to impress someone when you know they are coming! BTW, why doesn't some of these audit fools actually spend at least 1 full week eating/living/sleeping in the same facilities that these people live in? Don't expect anything negative to come out in the open about these audits. It's pure Politics and meant to make Apple look good. The truth is these factories are the equivalent of modern day slavery and people spend most of the year inside them and that is why they kill themselves because they can't even see their families and they are probably not allowed to communicate with them either or their families are too damn poor to be able to afford a computer, internet access or even a telephone.

-Mike

Looks like someone has an agenda to push.

 

[fabian9]

Don't these people live at work though... in dorms? Where the heck else could they commit suicide? I'm not trying to defend Apple by asking that (I actually think that sounds like a pretty miserable arrangement)... I'm just asking.

lol strangely enough, that's a pretty good point.

 

[JasperJanssen]

No need for the nets at work, the doors and windows are secured and you have to get past the guards before you can take the leap

Point being missed here... why do the residence even have the nets? Those living conditions must really suck if the factory is 1st class.

They have the nets because american media said it was atrocious that the occasional person killed themselves on company property. Guess what. A million people mostly aged 18-30? Damn *right* you're going to get people killing themselves. Quite a few of them. That is a workforce so large most people can barely conceive of it. Hell, I live in a city with only 400k inhabitants. Would I blame the local government for every suicide that might happen here?

If those apartment/dorm buildings had been owned by anyone but Foxconn there wouldn't be nets around them.

 

[AppleScruff1]

These were not surprise inspections, so they're pretty much useless.

Exactly. Do a bit of reading on the subject and you may find that the companies keep two sets of books, threaten workers if they say anything unfavorable, etc. etc. I'm not implying that Foxconn does this, but there have been cases of it in the past. There's no doubt that the facilities are state of the art. They have to be to turn out high quality products in the huge numbers that Apple requires.

 

[Ryth]

It's pointless arguing against the haters....

 

[Amazing Iceman]

Well we really want the illegal aliens to work our farms, mow our lawn because we will not do the work ourselves but we just don't want anybody to talk about it because then we just want these illegal people out of our country. It's called American Greed. Actually there is a TV show with that name. I think the problem with allot of Americans is that they are just too dumb and ignorant to really understand what's going on. And lets not forget allot of the great companies and inventions in the USA were actually the product of Immigrants, likely illegal too but back then immigration wasn't an issue. Chances are the house you live in was built by immigrants likely illegal also. Next time you open your mouth you should really think about what you are saying fellow Americans.

-Mike

Send them a to work on a farm for a day, then to a factory, then to clean up rooms in a hotel, then to clean up a highway.
Maybe they'd learn a lesson.

The Foxconn wasn't a surprise, but it was a very short notice. It's impossible to quickly to a throughout clean of a factory environment that is usually badly maintained.

Also, Auditors choose employees at random to interview; they could just spill the beans and present their complaints, which would trigger further investigation. It just takes one to complain to change the course of the auditing.

And it's awesome to know the auditors use iPads to conduct their tasks, heheh!

----------

It's pointless arguing against the haters....

Why don't they hate to argue as well???

 

[pdjudd]

Somehow, I think a factory plant the size of Foxconn's you can't quickly "sweep things under the carpet" before company shows up and look good.

Even if you could - the fact that Apple does auditing isn't really a surprise - even if Apple didn't announce them, there wouldn't be anything stopping executives to take preemptive actions. The whole thing (including the fact they they are even happening) would have to be secret and I doubt that could even happen. You cannot just pull a surprise announcement on FoxConn like that - especially when they are in another country.

I am sure that Foxconn tries to put themselves in as good as light as possible, but if workers know they are being interviewed, there is no way that Apple can surprise anybody

ETA:

lso, Auditors choose employees at random to interview; they could just spill the beans and present their complaints, which would trigger further investigation. It just takes one to complain to change the course of the auditing.

Indeed - thats the problem with keeping secrets in a large organization - it only takes one leak - and threatening people only increases the risk of leaks.

 

[jhende7]

LoL..

This reminded me of a great dialogue in the movie 50/50, between Seth Rogen and Joseph Gordon-Levitt to the tune of:

"Has she been sucking your d*() ?"

"No, she's not really into that"

No one like's giving Blow Jobs.....that's why the call it a job!


Man, that scene put a smile on my face!

 

[nsayer]

So, I'm sort of on Apple's side here, but just to play Devil's Advocate, this sort of report sounds an awful like a Potemkin Village to me. Are they planning on any surprise inspections (that really *are* surprises) to make sure they're not being played?

 

[Amazing Iceman]

Exactly. Do a bit of reading on the subject and you may find that the companies keep two sets of books, threaten workers if they say anything unfavorable, etc. etc. I'm not implying that Foxconn does this, but there have been cases of it in the past. There's no doubt that the facilities are state of the art. They have to be to turn out high quality products in the huge numbers that Apple requires.

Dirty factory = dirty products

Dust sticks to everything so quickly, specially electronics such as display panels, glass, plastics, etc.

Remember some iPad 1 came with a little dust speckle behind the glass?
I haven't heard any more complaints about it since then.
Mine had one on the inside of the glass, and when I exchanged it the replacement was clean.

 

[JHankwitz]

I have a feeling that in comparison they will find some of the best conditions at these shops. Doesn't mean they are still acceptable, but it's good to see this process is being brought public facing vs. behind closed doors.

Pessimists find nothing acceptable, and the media is loaded with those.

----------

It's very easy to impress someone when you know they are coming! BTW, why doesn't some of these audit fools actually spend at least 1 full week eating/living/sleeping in the same facilities that these people live in? Don't expect anything negative to come out in the open about these audits. It's pure Politics and meant to make Apple look good. The truth is these factories are the equivalent of modern day slavery and people spend most of the year inside them and that is why they kill themselves because they can't even see their families and they are probably not allowed to communicate with them either or their families are too damn poor to be able to afford a computer, internet access or even a telephone.

-Mike

It's always good to hear from someone that knows and can present the facts first-hand. Thank you Mike.

 

[3282868]

Some points:

- Were these inspections scheduled or expected?

- How were working conditions analyzed? (Worker survey, observation(s)?)

- To what other variables (i.e. working conditions in other factories, etc) are these results being compared with in order to obtain any relevant conclusion(s)?

- Were air quality and ventilation systems checked for quality of health?

- How many hours per day/week are averaged for the workers?

- Living conditions: Are workers living in/next to these factories, and if so what is the quality of their living conditions?

This is not just about Apple, this is about other companies who manufacture electronics in China and other nations in which workers have either died, been seriously injured or worse, committed suicide. Apple is tackling this issue in the media as the company has sky-rocketed in the electronics industry and much of their product is produced in questionable working conditions that have involved deaths and suicides of workers. Stating that this is "par for the course" is excusing this issue, I would hate to believe that if these acts occurred in the U.S. some would dismiss people jumping off of factory buildings as "media sensationalism." Keep in mind that in much of Asian culture, suicide may be deemed worse than death as a dishonor to your family.

What are the comparisons for these evaluations? Claiming Foxconn has acceptable working conditions by comparison to company B, which may have horrendous working conditions, doesn't justify the data. There needs to be an objective and agreed upon level of what is acceptable and what is not. This applies to ALL manufacturing facilities, not just those that make parts and goods for AAPL.

P.S. I miss the days in which Apple products didn't just state "Designed in California" but also manufactured (yes, Foxconn still made some of the parts but AAPL did manufacture in the U.S.). Interestingly, the products then (back in the PPC days) were cheaper than current Intel systems (PowerMac's esp. compared to Mac Pro's)

 

[gnasher729]

These were not surprise inspections, so they're pretty much useless.

Why? Even if they cleaned up things in anticipation of an inspection, that means that things are cleaned up. And everyone knows that a better working environment is more productive. So companies might avoid cleaning up because of the cost, but once it is cleaned up it makes a lot more sense to keep it that way.

Let's say a plant could buy a very dangerous machine for $10,000 and a much safer one for $20,000. And they put in the safer one because they are told of an inspection. No point ripping it out afterwards.

Even if you could - the fact that Apple does auditing isn't really a surprise - even if Apple didn't announce them, there wouldn't be anything stopping executives to take preemptive actions.

But you _want_ them to take preemptive action. You don't want the company to fail an audit, you want it to create working conditions where they pass.

This is not just about Apple, this is about other companies who manufacture electronics in China and other nations in which workers have either died, been seriously injured or worse, committed suicide.

Or worse, where workers have been murdered. Guess which rate is higher: US retail employees being murdered, or Foxconn employees committing suicide.

 

[mikefla]

Mike, you have never been to China and see their factories. You are using your U.S. views to judge thing you only read about. I've been to China for almost 10 years and saw many much tougher working condition ACROSS all factories than what it is inside Foxconn. Get off your high horse.

No, I have never been to China. But going to China and actually living/working like these modern day slaves do are two very different things. I have traveled to many parts of the world and speak several languages fluently so I am well informed about what is going on around the world and where. Besides, don't expect to visit any Foxconn factory or any other Chinese factory and be allowed in or to really see the daily lives of these folks and where they live/eat and what their whole week is like. You visiting a factory in China is similar to me visiting a museum, you are not going to see much besides what everybody else sees!

-Mike

 

[farmboy]

Is there no organisation that specialises on electronics companies? Who picked the FLA in the first place?

It doesn't matter if they know the product at all--the audit is of the working conditions and the effect on the workers. FLA is an independent oversight group with an international reputation.

 

[jayfehr]

Why compare it to garment factories? Wouldn't it be more interesting to compare against other electronics factories?

Apple is the only electronics company to join the FLA, so they don't have any other companies to compare them too.

 

[pdjudd]

But you _want_ them to take preemptive action. You don't want the company to fail an audit, you want it to create working conditions where they pass.

I was thinking about threatening employees or other things that may get a pass without them having to do any real actions (in fact make them worse). I know you don't want an audit to fail, but I was talking about a failing factory cover up things to make them look like a success (something I doubt Foxconn can really do)

 

[mikefla]

So, I'm sort of on Apple's side here, but just to play Devil's Advocate, this sort of report sounds an awful like a Potemkin Village to me. Are they planning on any surprise inspections (that really *are* surprises) to make sure they're not being played?

I seriously doubt it. It's like me showing up at Foxconn and saying I am here to visit your factory and look at the facilities you have for your workers. Even if I was with the Associated Press or whoever. Chances are I will not be allowed in and if I am I be be shown the areas that are designed for me to see where no one really lives or eats. They know when Apple is coming, Apple probably tells them well in advance and if not there are aways rumors or ways to find out. Just like there are rumors when new Apple products are getting ready to be released And as far as the workers go, these are extremely poor and very humble people, without the work they cannot feed their families, never mind giving their families a better future. They are not going to say anything negative about the working conditions or anything else while they are working there, I guarantee you! I find these audits rather useless.

-Mike

 

[3282868]

Or worse, where workers have been murdered. Guess which rate is higher: US retail employees being murdered, or Foxconn employees committing suicide.

I'm certain retail deaths from robberies is higher than suicides at Foxconn, however neither makes the other less relevant. Deaths in the retail industry due to robbery have a positive correlation to economic downtimes, of which we are currently experiencing internationally. There are also many more retail employees across the U.S. than Foxconn employees (G.A.P. w/ "Old Navy," "G.A.P." and "Banana Republic" employs one of the largest retail bases in the nation, let alone the world). When comparing U.S. retail and Foxconn deaths it is essential that the N value be justified (meaning percentage of the total N within that organization be calculated in order to properly compare the data) as well as other variables involved (murders due to robberies are a variable a company has no direct control over unlike working conditions that may lead to deaths and suicides).

Too many variables in those instances would not allow for a significant analysis as they are based on very different factors. Regardless, neither should be occurring.

 

[slippyr4]

Whilst I'm not going to pass judgement on the conditions in these factories - I've not been there and seen what it's really like, some here are making the argument that the worker's conditions are OK because in other industries/factories/locations etc they are worse.

That seems a somewhat nonsensical argument to me though. If I stole $1000 from a bank, I could hardly defend myself by arguing that someone else stole $2000 so I'm OK. It's nonsense.

The ONLY question relevant here is are the factory conditions that are indirectly caused by Apple acceptable, or not.

I would, however, put across the point that given that by some metrics Apple is the worlds biggest company, one of the most profitable companies, and a company that prides itself on making segment leading products, one might expect them to ensure that workers in their supply chain experience market leading conditions and treatment. Anything less would be morally reprehensible.

 

[jayfehr]

No need for the nets at work, the doors and windows are secured and you have to get past the guards before you can take the leap

Point being missed here... why do the residence even have the nets? Those living conditions must really suck if the factory is 1st class.

Why is there glass around the observation deck of the Empire State Building. The workers there must really be abused.

 

[taylortm]

To add insult to injury, because interest rates are so low these days, they're losing money (w/ inflation) on this pile. Sorry this is just poor corporate governance, no matter how you look at it. But please I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

You will be (proven wrong). All the self-loathing fanboi-bashers can have at me for this next statement/sentiment. But I guarantee it to be valid.

Apple's so-called "stockpiling" of cash is not "poor corporate governance." (Good God. Am I falling for this troll bait crap?) I think there's a fair amount of evidence that the World At Large kind of likes the way that company is "corporately governed." (Lest you disagree, go peek at the current stock price and ridiculous(ly awesome) upward trend.)

I'm with most of the rest of the (thinking) world and banking on the fact that Apple will eventually do something "useful" with that pile o' cash.

Charity -- in the form of retail price reductions or US jobs programs -- would not be an example of better "corporate governance," btw.

Yinmay... I wonder what gives you such irreproachable creds so as to actually pass commentary like this?

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

The over-arching issue here is this: Why do we continue to allow imports of foreign goods with lesser labor standards than we have here(in the US). Whether it's morally or economically, one way or another we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

 

[mikefla]

Ah, but see, those are the "illegal" immigrants working those most likely.

Which this country is of two minds:
1) They should be kicked out cause they're stealing our jobs, rah rah rah!
2) You silly people, no one here will take those jobs anyways (which is true, look at I think it was Alabama that has implemented a more effective program to keep them from getting jobs and now there is a worker shortage there), if they get kicked out, who are we going to exploit to pay less than min wage and get bad working conditions? We think we're giving the nice argument to argue them staying in (so we can exploit them).

Funny thing about 2 is they think they are arguing the good argument (they don't think about the actual fact that the reason they are the only ones who will take those jobs and the reason prices would go up if we didn't have them is because they are exploited because they can't complain or they get kicked out ... which of course would make group 1 happy).

Basically, this country needs them if it wants to enjoy prices not going up severely. Group 1 doesn't realize that, group 2 does. Neither are really arguing for the welfare of the exploited group but 2 thinks they are.

Finally some common sense! We need them to stay more competitive, they need us because they need jobs and they country of origins are a mess. It is a win/win situation for both. Most of the people in the US living off government aid are US citizens that are able to work but don't want to!

It is in our country's best interest to find a solution that works because we can't just expel millions of illegals overnight and if we ever did it would most likely cause us another great depression! I am pro reality, pro common sense. This is a great country and we have allot of great people here from all over the World but we also have allot of brainless people and we need to start using our brains a little more as our power/wealth/innovation becomes extinct!

-Mike

 

[motorazr]

Honestly, it's not too surprising that Apple has some of the best working conditions.... think about it. It's always been something they've mentioned at least (caring about their production lines), and even the leaked photos from an iPhone of people in the factory showed them smiling! All photos of Apple's foxxconn that I've seen have looked like a rather clean factory as opposed to some other factories (I don't know what ones, but they were featured in a documentary on Discovery a while back) where the workers were in visibly bad conditions all around!