Fair Labor Association Offers Initial Impressions on Foxconn Audit as iPads Used to Collect Survey Data

[Frobozz]

That is really good news. I know Apple cares about these issues, and it's good to hear that it's not as bad as it could be. Then again, I think everyone knows that a Chinese sweat-shop that produces clothing is probably a far cry from a Foxconn facility.

Workers in factories all around the world deal with issues of tedium, boredom, and accidents and productivity issues stem from both of those issues. A common solution is to offer work rotations. Employees move between sub-assemblies, machines, or tasks to keep things fresh. I built forklift trucks for a summer and they kept it interesting enough by putting me in sub-assemblies. That meant everything from brakes, hydraulics, wheels, arms, etc that would later go on the main forklift by someone else. I don't recommend it as a career path, but it kept you from burnout. If your brain is engaged and you have decent brakes, you don't injure yourself or others.

As far as pay goes, they're probably being paid competitively for China, but poorly by western standards. There's no doubt that it would be nice if they made more money. I'm all for that. But Apple probably doesn't have direct control over worker's wages, since not everyone at a Foxconn facility is working on Apple products.

 

[Frobozz]

Avoiding the politics, Tim Cook's word is rock-solid. No wonder Steve liked him so much.

I think anyone that knows Apple, understood what drove Jobs, and what kind of person and background Cook has, would know they care about this. It's more than a company to these people. It's a lifestyle and a way to influence the progress of mankind. They sell products and make (lots of) money, for sure. But they really DO care about putting as small of a footprint on the environment and on human resources as possible.

 

[sexualchocolate]

This is the headline The Verge came up with regarding these initial impressions by the FLA: "Apple factory inspectors put positive spin on Foxconn conditions, but watchdogs are skeptical"

Obviously we don't have an actual report yet, but it seems like it won't matter what they will find in the end, because it will just be seen as a spin.

 

[farmboy]

As I said, do a bit of reading on the subject and also take note that I did not imply that this is the case for Foxconn. And this is China, not the US.

Don't have to read about, I've been on both sides of more than 100 of them for medical devices.

 

[iceblade]

It's very easy to impress someone when you know they are coming! BTW, why doesn't some of these audit fools actually spend at least 1 full week eating/living/sleeping in the same facilities that these people live in? Don't expect anything negative to come out in the open about these audits. It's pure Politics and meant to make Apple look good. The truth is these factories are the equivalent of modern day slavery and people spend most of the year inside them and that is why they kill themselves because they can't even see their families and they are probably not allowed to communicate with them either or their families are too damn poor to be able to afford a computer, internet access or even a telephone.

-Mike

You have been sufficiently shut down, but I do want to speak to something that a lot of people haven't done:

Foxconn employees are NOT modern slaves. Do you know what real human trafficking and actual modern slavery is? Because it doesn't sound like it from what you are saying. I suggest you peruse some modern abolition websites. Modern slavery is a serious issue -- please don't water it down.

Even people in America work in difficult jobs they don't want to work because they have to feed their family. They feel like they can't leave, but they can. They say they work like a slave, but it isn't true... They're treated much better than slaves are.

 

[charlesdayton]

Why compare it to garment factories? Wouldn't it be more interesting to compare against other electronics factories?

Most of the electronics in China come from Foxcon. In China there are 13 Foxcon factories and not many competition to them. There are many Foxcon clients Apple is just the most famous. The clients include: Microsoft, Intel, Motorola, Nintendo, Sony, Toshiba, Dell, etc. There is a more official list at wikipedia.

 

[thewitt]

The people who have no clue here scream the loudest. It's really quite as.

I've been through the Foxconn facility, in a surprise audit, and it's a brilliantly run facility serving the needs of both customer and factory worker.

It's no surprise to me that this audit shows the same results.

They will have some audit findings - all audits do - and these things will be addressed.

The people crying foul will continue to do so until the Evil Empire is shut down and all laborers worldwide make $50 an hour though...

 

[Mr. Gates]

As an American with family laid off because of cheap labor in China ....

I say "Screw China"

They want the business ??? Well we don't do it over here because we like them.....

Get real.


You can't have it every way you want it China !

 

[AppleScruff1]

Don't have to read about, I've been on both sides of more than 100 of them for medical devices.

Maybe you've missed a few cases.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_48/b4011001.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...op-workers-toil-34-hour-shifts-make-iPod.html

http://owni.eu/2011/12/21/christmas-brought-to-you-by-chinese-slave-labor-mattel-disney-china/

 

[pablo7]

I can smell the B. S. All the way over here apple would never do anything that would put their production of products at risk no matter how many chinos die. Vandeerderen or what ever the F his name is is just there to help sweep everything under the rug for the right amount. Lot of money at play here a few complaints/deaths aren't going to matter especially in a country as controlled as china.

 

[whiteyanderson]

Maybe Apple can come out of this as heros. Phase out Chinese operations and bring those jobs back to the U.S. Just a thought, call me crazy. I'm sure there are a few Americans who would take the job.

 

[gnasher729]

There are also many more retail employees across the U.S. than Foxconn employees (G.A.P. w/ "Old Navy," "G.A.P." and "Banana Republic" employs one of the largest retail bases in the nation, let alone the world).

I was talking about rates. Percentages. And you might want to look at the actual number of employees. Foxconn is massive.

As for employers not being able to influence violence from customers / robbers: Of course they can influence that. In my experience, from various people working in retail, retail companies in the UK just give a **** about their employees. Some places (UK National Health Service for example) put up signs that they won't accept any violence against employees and will ask for prosecution. Retail stores in the UK _refuse_ to put up such signs.

 

[thewitt]

Maybe Apple can come out of this as heros. Phase out Chinese operations and bring those jobs back to the U.S. Just a thought, call me crazy. I'm sure there are a few Americans who would take the job.

Never gonna happen. The cost of your iPhone would increase well beyond your ability to afford it - while ALL the competition would be priced less and steal the market.

The US has lost its ability to compete in manufacturing where the manual labor model prevails. Foxconn has 10,000 people working on Apple products. Where would you find that minimum wage labor in the US?

 

[ggmissmolly]

"Where would you find that minimum wage labor in the US?"

If it can't be built with living wages, then screw it. Quit making new models every two weeks and automate a stable device.

Apple not only builds up a major US enemy, it has adopted a policy of releasing products that do not work as advertised (all of the most recent iPhones, hardware and software and all the Lion problems). They cover it up with software updates after the fact and easy hardware exchanges. They are continually "surprised" by such things as the current contact list invasion issue. Gimme a break! The so called greatest tech company doesn't know that it's apps are invading people's privacy? Take your pick..they are dumb as hell or outright liars.

Their current "innovation" is patent law suits. Apple is over the hill never to return. I'm so damn sorry that I switched entirely about 3 years ago and I'm going back. OK, you're right the other side is no better, but at least they don't wrap themselves in a cloak of decency and goodwill.

 

[rdowns]

The amount of ignorance in this thread is staggering.

 

[BobbyRond]

*every post I made on this thread*
-Mike

Did you notice that not a single post was appreciated, nor agreed with. Seems like you're the only one believing the BS your posting, so you may reconsider backing up your posts with factual evidence...

So sorry but I don't buy the argument "it's better than most other factories in China." By this reasoning, any complaint is invalid because you can always find something worst. It's like saying, "US workers shouldn't receive any benefit because some US citizens don't even have a job at all."

So you should pay more for your groceries because you earn more salary a month than your neighbors? Gimme a break.

I agree that everyone on the planet should have the opportunity to have a safe and fair job. We shouldn't call a bad factory 'good' because it's less bad than the other terrible factory. I bet the FLA has a standard and Foxconn has to live up to that standard. Period.

Maybe you've missed a few cases.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_48/b4011001.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...op-workers-toil-34-hour-shifts-make-iPod.html

http://owni.eu/2011/12/21/christmas-brought-to-you-by-chinese-slave-labor-mattel-disney-china/

I didn't read the first article, but Business Week usually writes ok stuff. The third link wasn't that bad, but still, they simply single out three cases out of a million workers.

The second article was downright an insult to every proper thinking human being. Terribly written and "arguments" like "Steve Jobs was given up for adoption" and "Steve Jobs did LSD" are just the lamest of the lame. How is that an argument? And again, they single out a few cases. The only thing that seemed remotely valid was the picture of the triple-bunk beds. Other than that, please come up with some read-worthy articles. This is just tabloid crap.

Maybe Apple can come out of this as heros. Phase out Chinese operations and bring those jobs back to the U.S. Just a thought, call me crazy. I'm sure there are a few Americans who would take the job.

Hate to burst your bubble, but as opposed to Chinese factory workers of the illegal immigrants working on farms (as discussed in this post), people in the US are not able to live off a $150 a month salary. I'm not saying they are not willing to take up a simple job as factory labor. But in order to have products at a payable level, it needs to be manufactured in those countries. Can you imagine paying $10 for a cucumber? or $500 for a pair of shoes? The only way to prevent this is to pay low wages. First world countries can't live off such salaries.

 

[AppleScruff1]

I didn't read the first article, but Business Week usually writes ok stuff. The third link wasn't that bad, but still, they simply single out three cases out of a million workers.

The second article was downright an insult to every proper thinking human being. Terribly written and "arguments" like "Steve Jobs was given up for adoption" and "Steve Jobs did LSD" are just the lamest of the lame. How is that an argument? And again, they single out a few cases. The only thing that seemed remotely valid was the picture of the triple-bunk beds. Other than that, please come up with some read-worthy articles. This is just tabloid crap.

I provided sources. You didn't.

 

[azurehi]

The amount of ignorance in this thread is staggering.

Perhaps you can set "us" straight

 

[ILikeTurtles]

I can only hope that this was intended as sarcasm.

Because if it was not, it ranks right up there with the most disgusting posts I've ever seen.

I'd really like to see the poster clarify his/her intentions.

What is there clarify? If they did a report that said Foxcon employees were falling out from exhaustion and dying on the assembly line floor, do you think I would stop buying Apple products? No I wouldn't, and neither would the majority of their customers. Sad reality, but it is indeed reality.

 

[farmboy]

Maybe you've missed a few cases.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_48/b4011001.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...op-workers-toil-34-hour-shifts-make-iPod.html

http://owni.eu/2011/12/21/christmas-brought-to-you-by-chinese-slave-labor-mattel-disney-china/

Wow. Totally irrelevant to my posts. I never said there were no abuses, although anything purported by the Daily MAil is pretty much a joke. I just said that independent auditors looking for labor practice irregularities at Foxconn will find them. Try to follow along.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Wow. Totally irrelevant to my posts. I never said there were no abuses, although anything purported by the Daily MAil is pretty much a joke. I just said that independent auditors looking for labor practice irregularities at Foxconn will find them. Try to follow along.

You're the one that said my initial post wasn't correct. I provided a few links. You provided your opinion, no facts. No need for you to be condescending. Especially when you are wrong.

 

[sarge]

Great interview w/Bill Black assoc. prof. of law and econimics about the dynamics of the China supplier relationship - You're going to want to skip the longwinded intro and go to 01:18 to hear Blacks take:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-aMfp4v37o&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[farmboy]

You're the one that said my initial post wasn't correct. I provided a few links. You provided your opinion, no facts. No need for you to be condescending. Especially when you are wrong.

Let's try for the last time: I was talking about audits in general, and the Foxconn audit, not about abuses in other companies in other industries in China, which were not covered by FLA or other audits. I don't care if you bring up a hundred cites about other abuses elsewhere, it's not relevant to what I was talking about.

 

[AppleScruff1]

Let's try for the last time: I was talking about audits in general, and the Foxconn audit, not about abuses in other companies in other industries in China, which were not covered by FLA or other audits. I don't care if you bring up a hundred cites about other abuses elsewhere, it's not relevant to what I was talking about.

Let's make it simple. My initial post in this thread:

Exactly. Do a bit of reading on the subject and you may find that the companies keep two sets of books, threaten workers if they say anything unfavorable, etc. etc. I'm not implying that Foxconn does this, but there have been cases of it in the past. There's no doubt that the facilities are state of the art. They have to be to turn out high quality products in the huge numbers that Apple requires.

Your reply:

No, not "exactly" at all. If you've never been audited or performed an audit, you might think so; you'd be wrong. While unscheduled audits have their place, scheduled or short notice audits are quite effective. Basically auditors can go anywhere and look at anything, including your trash and locked file cabinets. Auditors are not easily deceived and the longer they are there the more they discover. The best approach is not to piss them off.

Keeping a second set of books does nothing in this case, as they are unlikely to keep alternate labor records because the burden of maintaining them is too great and you don't know what the auditors are going to ask for. Over 3-4 weeks the auditors will have plenty of time to explore all the facilities (including locked rooms, remote buildings), look at all the documents, and privately interview workers without oversight.

My reply:

As I said, do a bit of reading on the subject and also take note that I did not imply that this is the case for Foxconn. And this is China, not the US.

You replied:

Don't have to read about, I've been on both sides of more than 100 of them for medical devices.

My reply:

Maybe you've missed a few cases.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8/b4011001.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...make-iPod.html

http://owni.eu/2011/12/21/christmas-...-disney-china/

Your reply:

Wow. Totally irrelevant to my posts. I never said there were no abuses, although anything purported by the Daily MAil is pretty much a joke. I just said that independent auditors looking for labor practice irregularities at Foxconn will find them. Try to follow along.

I said:

You're the one that said my initial post wasn't correct. I provided a few links. You provided your opinion, no facts. No need for you to be condescending. Especially when you are wrong.

What part of this is confusing you? I showed a few examples of what you said wouldn't happen, showing that it has indeed happen. I also stated that it might not be the case here. So supporting evidence has nothing to do with your anecdotal reply. And try being less rude.

 

[hchung]

What part of this is confusing you? I showed a few examples of what you said wouldn't happen, showing that it has indeed happen. I also stated that it might not be the case here. So supporting evidence has nothing to do with your anecdotal reply. And try being less rude.

farmboy is saying that the majority of the things you mentioned from the DailyMail article aren't in the electronics industry, and that you can't equate a textile/clothing factory to a toy factory to a high end consumer electronics factory to a commodity electronics factory to a medical devices factory.

In farmboy's case, he's apparently read about factories manufacturing medical devices. In the cooking-the-books and shady-backroom-sweatshops mentioned in the article, it's Nike. Different factories working on different types of products will work differently, because some things have different requirements in order to be able to do the work. Obviously, I think we can agree on that.

I'm of the opinion that the cheating tactics mentioned for smaller workshops and Nike arn't going to work half as well for Foxconn if they try them. Not saying they would try to cheat. Not saying they wouldn't try to cheat. Afterall, Foxconn has way more people to manage, which increases the chance of leaks and the discovery of cheating.

Likewise, having a dark sweatshop in the corner isn't really conducive to making extra iPhones. It just wouldn't be worth it. Have you tried to take apart and put back together an original iPhone? I have. (was fixing it) If I had to do it in some dimly-lit run down shack, it'd take me much much more time to put it together without breaking than if I was in a proper workshop. It'd probably be slow enough that had I been a factory worker, giving me a proper workshop and more pay would probably still be cheaper than throwing me in a backroom.

Besides, the fact that even for something easier to make in crappy work conditions (Nike's clothing workshop), the fact that we had an article to read meant that, well, auditors will still find stuff despite cheating attempts.