Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues

[MacBram]

Apple what are u going to do with no Photoshop or Creative suite for Mac? Creative Suite for Windows is superior to the Mac version anyway.

Apple has 2 things keeping it's OS alive---MS Office and Adobe Creative suite--even though the Windows version of both is King!

Windows fanboy? Didn't know they existed. Believe me there are plenty of Mac folks that have moved on from creaky old MS and Adobe products.

Yeah, who'd a-thunk it? If I was immersed in CS every working hour, then she may have a point. Trouble is, I have to do a lot of other real-world stuff on my my computer.

Then again, what's "superior" about the Window's versions? Performance? Features? What? Certainly not the UI. To the degree that the CS for Winblows UI is different than the UI on CS for Mac, then it is probably counter-productive. The more Windows-like that the Adobe product UI's become, the less superior they inherently become. Creaky is right.

Of course I would say that? Well, there are accepted studies showing the clear superiority of Apple's planning, consistent developer guidelines and attention to detail and end-user useability. Windows UI development is all over the place, seems to change every other week and this is true of both MS itself and their developers.

Contrast this with reviews this week about how the iPad "magically becomes the App". Well I don't want no Flash-conceived, recompiled, thoughtless joo-joo taking over my 'Pad when I want to immerse myself in some work I have to do.

 

[*LTD*]

"Go screw yourself" is exactly what Adobe's been saying to Mac users for the last 15 years.

One of these two companies are screwed and it's not Apple.

 

[AidenShaw]

I just wish apple would work more on... osx...

Not. Going. To. Happen.

 

[.Andy]

"Go screw yourself" is exactly what Adobe's been saying to Mac users for the last 15 years.

Absolute nonsense.

 

[yukio]

you know, out of all of this i keep wondering...

why hasn't adobe created their own mobile platform to leverage their omniture delivery service?

because - isn't that really what pisses them off?

sure, the authoring tools bit is there... but the big money is ads, and adobe made their play before either google or apple.

heck, if Garmin - maker of GPS - can do their own spin on a mobile phone - why not a phone that runs nothing but Flash?

assuming the Flash ecosystem could product the right content, you wouldn't even need Android at that point.

 

[lilo777]

Good summary. I would add one more pro for HTML 5 / con for Flash. Apple users have money and like to spend it on luxuries (that is why they have Macs/iPhones/iPads in the first place). If I were a developer, I'd FOLLOW THE MONEY!

Gloating much? MS users - corporations have even more money. Also, the most expensive PCs and laptops are all Windows based so shut up about your cheap crap.

 

[*LTD*]

"The fact that Apple would make such a hostile and despicable move like this clearly shows the difference between our two companies. All we want is to provide creative professionals an avenue to deploy their work to as many devices as possible."

So, Adobe doesn't want to own the proprietary toolset to generate profits by controlling the Web's multimedia platform. The charitable angels at Adobe just want to provide creative professionals with blah, blah, blah. Well then, Adobe should drop Flash into the dumpster where it belongs, and embrace the creation of cross-platform tools that enable people to deploy open standards, such as HTML5, that actually will work on as many devices as possible, including 85+ million iPhones, iPod touches, and iPads.

 

[ThunderSkunk]

Alright, well, screw you too, Adobe. Get out of the 90's and update your creative suite already. CaptureOne is a far superior product anyway. We'll be fine not purchasing 37 seats of Adobe CS5 in 2010.

Nice corner you're backing your customers into, Apple. Not cool either.

 

[German]

in fact Apple was pretty generous with coming up with an app store and allowing developers to make money.

Generous?
Imagine iPhone without App Store... -> BIG advantage for Android & Co.

 

[yukio]

"Go screw yourself" is exactly what Adobe's been saying to Mac users for the last 15 years.

Not sure I'd put it at that level, but I do think that Mac customers have our own water fountains, so to speak.

Can't remember which Adobe exec explained a few years back how Adobe couldn't be expected to put as much effort into a platform and customer base that was at best 1/10 that of Windows.

 

[Ty C]

Keep out the RiffRaff

These internet haters, including Adobe, have concluded that this move by Apple is 'unethical', 'meant to kill and embarrass Adobe', that Apple is exercising tyrannical control over their platform and their developers. I 100% disagree.

Instead, I wholeheartedly agree with Apple's SDK terms change. I think it has to do with Apple's integrity as a company, and protecting the level of quality that we've seen out of the App store thus far. And also, all of their hard work and time that has gone into making the platform what is today.

The iPhone hasn't been wildly successful by chance. The iPhone has been successful because of Apple's iPhone OS and SDK. They have done an absolutely unbelievable job guiding developers into making amazing quality software. They have spent an incredible amount of resources teaching them about UI guidelines, and auditing their software, while giving them guidelines for making improvements. It has been their almost perfect attention to detail that has brought the iPhone to where it is.

And now Adobe (and others) want their piece of the pie. And, If it were up to Adobe and these crazies on the internet, the iPhone would look a lot like Windows in less than a year. UI guidelines would be thrown out the door, and it would be a User Interface free for all. Just like windows is today.

So, Apple isn't trying to kill anyones business. They're trying to protect their users from crappy software, and to keep a level of quality that its users have come to expect. They have put a tremendous amount of resources into making sure all of these things fell into place correctly, all while making it look easy to outsiders.

Fortunately, now if Bank of America wants to make XYZ app, they actually have to hire someone that know about the iPhone and how the software works. If it weren't like that, you can be sure that Bank of America would hire some firm that would choose to build some terrible application in Flash, because its more economical. The quality of the applications would immediately go down, as people try to take shortcuts in building their applications. Can you imagine the quality of the apps we would see if a lot of these companies decided to take shortcuts building their software?

What iPhone users want (even though they don't always know it) is for Apple to protect the integrity of the platform. What these people (including Adobe) are missing, is why Apple users buy Apple products. We don't want it to look like windows. We don't want a free-for-all ecosystem. If you want that kind of software ecosystem... please... good luck with Android, where you can write any kind of mess and throw it up in the store.

 

[jaykk]

I still don't understand the developers, if they want to program and make money off of apple users, they should use tools for that platform.

If they are so fond of of their existing language/technology, why don't they program for Windows phone 7 (oh they don't support flash either) or Android ( those users want freebies, and not that many paying customers, google makes money off of search and privacy).

I think apple should have some standard way of coding for their platform, so that the users can get the best experience. There is a technical reason why apple stipulates certain things, they don't want to build another messy desktop platform on mobile devices.

 

[Ochyandkaren]

Well, not everybody works at a company with an open culture. I wouldn't want to work at a company that'd fire me from voicing my opinions on a blog, that's for sure.

I read Apple employees aren't even allowed to post on blogs, regardless of what they're writing. They must be paid a top salary, because I can't imagine you'd want to work there for anything else.

Then why Adobe asked him to behave, he has the right to say what he want.
Why he accepted?
So he is NOT free!

Apple uses its secrecy as a shield, and iPad naysayers brouhaha clearly is a proof of why they behave like that..

 

[German]

I just wish apple would work more on... osx...

"Mac OS X 10.7 development continues, but with a reduced team and an unknown schedule. It’s my educated guess that there will be no 10.7 news at WWDC this year, and probably none until WWDC 2011."



http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/reading_between_the_iphone_os_4_lines

 

[AidenShaw]

Posting what he did is a big no-no, regardless of who is in the right.

Unless, Adobe clearly wanted to get a message out, but to have it come from a "plausibly deniable" source.

I consider it "very interesting" that Adobe asked him to change one sentence. One sentence only.

If Adobe didn't like the blog post, they could have asked him to redact the whole thing. Adobe didn't, they asked for one sentence to be modified. One sentence only.

Look back at the stories of Apple's "controlled leaks"....

 

[*LTD*]

Ever launch Photoshop? Do you enjoy the length of time it takes for that mess of spaghetti code to get its bloated ass in gear?

 

[Art Mark]

Yes consumers suffer when they buy Dell

When they have the choice to buy an Apple or not that's when it will be fair. Wait, they do have the choice. And by the way, Microsoft does decide who can install Windows by deciding who they license to. -t-h-i-n-k.

I'm THRILLED someone is telling it like it is for once. It's just a matter of time before Apple catches the attention of the Justice Department and they SHOULD catch their attention as everything they've been doing for years now is 100% ANTI-COMPETITIVE to a "T". Some of us WANT things like Firefox for the iPad and frankly feel Steve has no right to dictate what software we can or cannot have, let alone monopolize the sales/distribution market for those applications and force developers to pay whatever they ask to develop for it period (and then reject them willy-nilly on a whim if they don't want to carry it). We need the rule of law in this country to start defining what companies can and cannot do for ALL publicly sold platforms. It wasn't right when Microsoft forced licensing fees for hardware (even if Windows was not included on it) and it's not right for Apple to be able to dictate entire software markets for products based on what makes them the most money. They're manipulating multiple markets (hardware, software, phones, store-front distribution systems) to make sure they control it all within the confines of their hardware.

Imagine if Microsoft started demanding that only Dell could make PCs to run Windows and no one else and that all software had to be purchased online and approved by Microsoft before installing it and that they get 30% of all the money from all Windows software sales on the planet. Do you seriously think for ONE MINUTE they'd get away with that? How much you want to bet that they might start to try using Apple as precedent as with the Psystar case versus Xbox flash memory? Give me a break. Apple isn't some two-bit garage operation anymore. They should have to compete on a market-by-market basis like everyone else in this world. In the end, it is the consumer that suffers. Any nonsense about multi-tasking is just that, complete nonsense. Half the phones and iPod Touches out there won't multi-task under 4.0 anyway and that should be the user's choice what to run and how it affects things anyway, not Steve's choice.

 

[WilliamLondon]

What Apple deserves is that all developers abandon ship and now exclusively write software for Android or Windows Mobile.

Here's the torch, lead the way, we'll be right behind.

[waits]

(Okay, now that he's gone, let's have some fun)

 

[MacStu09]

I was wondering, will the iPad be the end of flash? Or will Flash but an end to the iPad and down the road the end for apple?

I mean it's foolish to think that adobe alone will hurt Apple's market/revenue, but as designers and advertisers move away form macs due to it's lack of support for Adobe people will migrate...

I know people will start saying "look at the iphone and ipod with no flash support", but down the road someone will have to give...

What do you think? who will eventually give in?

The iPad won't be an end to flash because in all honesty, the majority of people don't care whatsoever about the iPad. However, the majority of computer users interact with flash several times a day, so it won't end the iPad either, but it will give some a reason to not buy the thing.

In the end, I don't think either has to give in. People use computers for real business, and all computers can handle flash. It really doesn't matter that much if the iphone/ipad doesn't have it. Despite what some may think; those still entail only a minority market. (And most people who have them don't care that they don't have flash - that's what they have a REAL computer for, if it's really that important.

 

[brewcitywi]

Adobe / Apple

I'm sure there is much more history to this than Flash on the iPhone. I've sensed the collaboration between adobe and apple sour for much longer. I even believe that, since the original iMac, Apple wanted to move back to center, with more mainstream users, and not rely on high-end graphics and video professionals as their "core" demographic.

It would be logical that Apple would want to minimize their reliance on Adobe products to use their platforms to the highest degree.

Then comes Final Cut Pro, etc., and Apple becomes a "competitive developer."

I use Adobe products every day, so, i like both companies. But maybe Adobe has become a little slow on the techy side of their programs over the past 10 years. Maybe they should be trying to develop a lower power-consumption version of their Creative Suite, and maybe try streamlining Flash for mobile devices.

I'm not a programmer, so this is probably not possible, as I have stated it! But, if Adobe can't move a bit more into the lightning fast flash memory battery life world of Apple, than many of Adobe's products won't fit on Apple's platform, and won't fit into Apple's roadmaps.

Adobe recently released Adobe Ideas for iPad, which probably recognizes the larger format screen as much more viable than that of the iPhone, and can compete with Layers, Brushes and Sketchbook.

But, is it already too late? I'm not sure.

I really believe that Adobe has to almost create "light" versions of Illustrator, Photoshop, and Flash, so that they can work in a lower power consumption platform. They need to do what Apple has been doing over the past 10 years--be more maverick in developing, and take a few technological leaps of faith on behalf of their future customers.

The blog that gets angry with Apple scared me...it wasn't the right angle to take, it feels wrong, as many other people on this thread have mentioned.

However, the earlier Adobe release, stating that Apple's stance could hurt Adobe's core business, perhaps severely, was more interesting. For Adobe to position themselves as a helpless victim to Apple's ongoing monopolies of major markets COULD help them to be viewed as an "underdog," and Apple may have to look back on their years together, to see if they really want to be instrumental in hurting them.

Maybe, somehow, somewhere down the line, Apple would have to throw the underdog a bone!

 

[racer1441]

Well, not everybody works at a company with an open culture. I wouldn't want to work at a company that'd fire me from voicing my opinions on a blog, that's for sure.

I read Apple employees aren't even allowed to post on blogs, regardless of what they're writing. They must be paid a top salary, because I can't imagine you'd want to work there for anything else.

I agree with firing blog posting employees. You work for me, you are a representative for my company. What you do and say reflects on me and my company. No blogs, tweets, etc. Also, actions are grounds for problems, excess drinking, law issues, etc.

 

[*LTD*]

These internet haters, including Adobe, have concluded that this move by Apple is 'unethical', 'meant to kill and embarrass Adobe', that Apple is exercising tyrannical control over their platform and their developers. I 100% disagree.

Instead, I wholeheartedly agree with Apple's SDK terms change. I think it has to do with Apple's integrity as a company, and protecting the level of quality that we've seen out of the App store thus far. And also, all of their hard work and time that has gone into making the platform what is today.

The iPhone hasn't been wildly successful by chance. The iPhone has been successful because of Apple's iPhone OS and SDK. They have done an absolutely unbelievable job guiding developers into making amazing quality software. They have spent an incredible amount of resources teaching them about UI guidelines, and auditing their software, while giving them guidelines for making improvements. It has been their almost perfect attention to detail that has brought the iPhone to where it is.

And now Adobe (and others) want their piece of the pie. And, If it were up to Adobe and these crazies on the internet, the iPhone would look a lot like Windows in less than a year. UI guidelines would be thrown out the door, and it would be a User Interface free for all. Just like windows is today.

So, Apple isn't trying to kill anyones business. They're trying to protect their users from crappy software, and to keep a level of quality that its users have come to expect. They have put a tremendous amount of resources into making sure all of these things fell into place correctly, all while making it look easy to outsiders.

Fortunately, now if Bank of America wants to make XYZ app, they actually have to hire someone that know about the iPhone and how the software works. If it weren't like that, you can be sure that Bank of America would hire some firm that would choose to build some terrible application in Flash, because its more economical. The quality of the applications would immediately go down, as people try to take shortcuts in building their applications. Can you imagine the quality of the apps we would see if a lot of these companies decided to take shortcuts building their software?

What iPhone users want (even though they don't always know it) is for Apple to protect the integrity of the platform. What these people (including Adobe) are missing, is why Apple users buy Apple products. We don't want it to look like windows. We don't want a free-for-all ecosystem. If you want that kind of software ecosystem... please... good luck with Android, where you can write any kind of mess and throw it up in the store.

That last part is an excellent explanation for Apple's success.

Bravo. Someone "gets it." All of it.

 

[dr.holliday]

Sigh

haha forget flash, it is buggy and uses too much processing power...even the 10.1 beta.

 

[Ochyandkaren]

I still don't understand the developers, if they want to program and make money off of apple users, they should use tools for that platform.

If they are so fond of of their existing language/technology, why don't they program for Windows phone 7 (oh they don't support flash either) or Android ( those users want freebies, and not that many paying customers, google makes money off of search and privacy).

I think apple should have some standard way of coding for their platform, so that the users can get the best experience. There is a technical reason why apple stipulates certain things, they don't want to build another messy desktop platform on mobile devices.

Yeah!
Common sense, common sense.
Sad people never look it in the eyes.

Apple could do as Google, but unlike Google,  doesn't make money out of the internet.

 

[drtimhill]

I'm sorry, I came on here to congratulate Apple on furthering the development of true applications and saw this. The second you write an OS, come back on this thread, Tim, and say that again about it not being "Apple's business." It is their job to make sure the OS and everything in it runs smoothl.

Well actually I *have* written several OSes, and am a major contributor on the design of several others. So much for the Ad Hominem attack.

My point stands. OSes present an environment within which applications execute. That environment includes the structure of a process/task or whatever as well as the APIs and services that the OS makes available to the application. This entire environment is defined at the BINARY level; that is, file formats, object/executable code etc. That's the case for Windows, OSX, iPhone OS yada yada.

What Apple have said with this rule is that a block of code is not valid for use in an iPhone UNLESS it was created using a certain toolchain. I could generate two blocks of code, both bit-for-bit *identical*, and have one rejected SOLELY because it was created using a "non-approved" tool. This borders on the kafkaesque. Imagine if Apple started telling people which fonts whey were allowed to use with Pages.