Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues

[BVerites]

Oh no, don't drop the "H-bomb". That really gets some of the fans upset.

Hypocrisy can be as simple as participating in a forum for no other reasons than to instigate and proselytize while making a pretense of having added value. What's the point of living if your only goal is destruction?

Now, back to the real issue. Adobe is well know for trash code (all of us have overheated running their crap). So why should I believe that Adobe is capable or creating a compiler that creates anything other than trash? Why should Apple allow the output of trash compilers on devices tailored to perfecting a great user experience.

Having spent considerable time creating compilers, it's clear that the result of a compilation is based upon the skill of the developers. We have seen little evidence that Adobe cares or is capable of creating a decent user experience. It's the same old MS approach "If it doesn't work, it's due to your device being underpowered." This mindset might be passable when your machine is plugged in, but is totally unacceptable when you have the limitation that are intrinsic in mobile devices.

__________________
-as
Baseball - Have you attended a game with your sporting friends, your sporting colleagues and your sporting relatives? Why not?

 

[Art Mark]

Good point

Is all this about Flash people not wanting to learn anything new? Are they hoping the world of technology will eventually all run Flash animations of curtains parting or some other Flash cliche? When was the last time anyone went to a movie or TV promotional site and got anything useful from it but horrible, redundant, reused Flash games. Yeah, that's the technology future I want.

Good programming standards are always important, yes. But at least ObjC/C/C++ are standards. Flash is not.

 

[Ochyandkaren]

Gloating much? MS users - corporations have even more money. Also, the most expensive PCs and laptops are all Windows based so shut up about your cheap crap.

C++, JavaScript, HTML is not !!
At least he is not supporting a corporate entity, he is supporting open source.
You are supporting M$, helping Mr Gates get rich.
He gave 1 Billion and got 50 Billion.

Sad indeed!

 

[NebulaClash]

Is all this about Flash people not wanting to learn anything new?

There are times when it seems that way to me. Apple is NEVER going to allow Flash on the iPhone. That is a dead end. So why they keep trying to argue about it is a mystery to me. Who are they trying to convince?

Apple has moved on, and the industry is starting to follow. People can learn the new standards or stick around with the old tech. But Flash is not coming to the iPhone no matter how many of these threads we get. It's simply a waste of time.

 

[Zonz]

Isn't true that apple needs Adobe more than Adobe needs apple? How much would Mac computers hurt if Adobe pulled all their products out of development for osX? I thought Mac was supposed to be known for being the higher standard of professional media editing, and Adobe is a large part of that. And what if their was no browser support for flash in Macs? As bloated as it is, I need flash on my computer for many websites. I wouldn't have a mac if it didn't support flash.

Maybe I misunderstand their relationship, but a big F***K YOU in the form of developer limitations from apple seems to only have negative consequences. I know this is about the ipod, ipad, and iphone line, but I feel like it could spill over into computers out of spite, no?

 

[Bytor65]

Well actually I *have* written several OSes, and am a major contributor on the design of several others. So much for the Ad Hominem attack.


What Apple have said with this rule is that a block of code is not valid for use in an iPhone UNLESS it was created using a certain toolchain. I could generate two blocks of code, both bit-for-bit *identical*, and have one rejected SOLELY because it was created using a "non-approved" tool. This borders on the kafkaesque. Imagine if Apple started telling people which fonts whey were allowed to use with Pages.

If your claimed history is true, then you should know better.

What they are enforcing is Native Development for a resource limited platform and excluding things like Java+JVM or Flash Scripts + Adobe Runtime.

It should be obvious to any seasoned developer that the former conserves the limited resources and leads to faster slicker applications.

Innovation is also lost on your platform when you just start allowing lowest common denominator cross platform frameworks/RTE to be an application platform.

 

[rtmadden]

Regardless of the reasoning behind Flash-less iPhones and iPads, this omittance can at the very least, be frustrating to the end user. Yes, I don't want my Mac or Apple product to look like Windows and as a whole I'm VERY satisfied with Apple. However, I received my iPad today and upon navigating to masters.com, I of course could not watch Tiger's second round play and had to switch over to my MacBook. While Apple may or may not have the right idea from a broader perspective, there are certainly limitations that affect us today.

 

[marcfogel]

PC World Take

http://tinyurl.com/y9w573u

 

[MacBram]

Hey all,
I think people are not getting what this means. It is not about running Flash on the iPhone. Nebula, Baron, etc. are talking about a totally different issue. This is about using the Flash IDE to build native iPhone applications. Not Flash running in a browser. It's about mandating that you use certain development tools to create a product. Like, mandating that somebody use the Flash IDE to create .swfs or something. I can't deny that there may be some technical reason behind this that we don't know about, but with CS5 planned for a demo on Monday, it really is just pissing on Adobe. Rather than coordinating with them to help more people build applications, they are blindsiding them and deliberately derailing plans for their new CS5 suite. It really does suck.

No, we get it. If a "developer" wants to develop for a platform he needs to come up to scratch and supply what is expected for participation in that platform.

I could buy a kit home from anywhere in the world. Thank goodness, though, there are building codes and standards where I live. It's not enough that the "package" conforms loosely to some outward spec. or aesthetic. If I get a prefabbed wall from Timbuctoo, I want more than just the outside measurements and color to be satisfactory: I don't want pieces crumbling or coming unglued; I don't want to hear about toxic materials inside due to a lack of regulations where they put it together; I want to know it can by its very nature become an organic part of my house. If it is made according to the regulations where I live, then all should be fine. However, if it is shoddily built in a one-size-fits-all manner just so the same product can be shoe-horned into a number of markets with a wide variety of regulations, then it should probably be discouraged from participating in our market.

As far as the timing, I don't think it is necessarily sinister or planned. If anything, CS5 is probably overdue. Apple just got the iPad launch out of the way. They then needed to preview iPhone OS4 for developers before WDC. They announced lots of exciting APIs dealing with new, core features. Developers will want to try them out. It's natural to announce now, alongside the preview, that developers should use the APIs as intended.

 

[shervieux]

I feel Adobe should strike back, and not release their products for the Mac.

Actually I think Adobe made the first strike here. I would have to research how far back this war goes, but I remember the following:

1. People complaining Adobe was releasing crippled products on Apple, but charging more for the mac version over the more feature rich Windows version.

2. Adobe decided to make their newer version of Premier Elements (video editor) almost exactly like imovie because people love Apple. They chose to implement the features that people most complained about when imovie in ilife 08 came out (lack of a timeline, etc) and then turned around and said "We won't be releasing a mac version as imovie is preferred and free on Apple"

Plus I heard many many complaints about dreamweaver on Apple, to the point it seems that most people don't use it anymore and are opting for something else.

plus I know scores of Windows fanboys who are also upset with Adobe products lately.

the only reason why I use adobe reader on my mac (only adobe product I use) is because I had gotten some PDF's made with adobe and something about them would not allow any other PDF reader to open. it is like adobe encoded it a certain away. and if PDF is a document standard, then they broke standards.

Yes adobe created it, but it is now an ISO standard and if Adobe is creating versions that only Acrobat reader can open - then I believe they are breaking ISO standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF

According to the ISO PDF standard abstract:

ISO 32000-1:2008 specifies a digital form for representing electronic documents to enable users to exchange and view electronic documents independent of the environment in which they were created or the environment in which they are viewed or printed. It is intended for the developer of software that creates PDF files (conforming writers), software that reads existing PDF files and interprets their contents for display and interaction (conforming readers) and PDF products that read and/or write PDF files for a variety of other purposes (conforming products).

A new version named "PDF 2.0" is currently under development (ISO/NP 32000-2 - Document management -- Portable document format -- Part 2: PDF 2.0).[9]​

 

[avkills]

Have not read all the responses; but I for one am so God damned tired of Flash ads and Flash content that could have been done using standard html protocols; which does nothing but chew bandwidth and waste CPU cycles.

In my opinion Flash is good for two things -- dorky simple games and stupid funny cartoons aka Jib Jab (Jib Jab is awesome IMO by the way).

Trying to pawn it off as some sort of programming development platform is a joke. I applaud Apple for putting their foot down and basically saying if you want to play -- you're gonna use open standards.

-mark

 

[peter02l]

But if you are smart student, do not listen to him. Use cross-platform development tools (where appropriate) and develop applications for all (or most) phones instead of just one.

And then try and sell them. Good luck with that advice.

 

[Daiden]

I don't really care about Adobe. What I do care about is my privacy. Since apps will be able to access my photos, contacts, and SMS in iPhone OS 4.0, I do not want any weird code that could potentially be sending information over the internet. I don't know if that's possible, but I'd rather the gatekeepers at Apple be able to look over code and spot security problems before they become a real issue.

 

[TennisandMusic]

"Pry my iMac from my cold dead hands".

Flash sucks on my imac. I lose count everyday how many times flash crashes!
I was a beta tester on YouTube for HTML5, and I had NO issues with it at all!

Maybe Apple should tender a hostel takeover of Adobe and assimilate it!

So is this like, where Apple employees take Adobe employees out of their nice homes and force them to sleep in small rooms?

 

[*LTD*]

http://www.rainydaymagazine.com/RDM2010/RainyDayEngineering/Week11/RDEMar1510.htm#NoFlash


"...The Flash-free strategy is a win-win for Apple.


Not supporting Flash opens the landscape to those who are willing to do wiz-bang things without Flash.


Apple is betting there are a LOT of new developers chomping at the bit to make a name for themselves on the iPhone and iPad.


We think they are right."

Interesting.

 

[Ty C]

Regardless of the reasoning behind Flash-less iPhones and iPads, this omittance can at the very least, be frustrating to the end user. Yes, I don't want my Mac or Apple product to look like Windows and as a whole I'm VERY satisfied with Apple. However, I received my iPad today and upon navigating to masters.com, I of course could not watch Tiger's second round play and had to switch over to my MacBook. While Apple may or may not have the right idea from a broader perspective, there are certainly limitations that affect us today.

I agree, it is a limitation that affects us today. But already you are starting to see sites convert to HTML5. If Apple doesn't push flash out, It will be here forever.

Adobe had its chance to make flash a viable web technology, but it failed. It's buggy, bloated software that doesn't work well across multiple platforms and devices. It just has no place on the internet anymore.

As a web developer. I for one am glad that Apple has taken this stance on flash. I'll deal with some of the limitations for the greater good of internet moving forward.

 

[shervieux]

hmmmm

No wonder Jobs does not like flash..... Sounds to me like Adobe is trying to push Apple to conform to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Video

File formats

Support for video in SWF file format was added in Flash Player 6, released in 2002. In 2003, Flash Player 7 added direct support for FLV file format. Because of restrictions in the FLV file format, Adobe Systems has created in 2007 new file formats listed below, based on the ISO base media file format (MPEG-4 Part 12). Flash Player does not check the extension of the file, but rather looks inside the file to detect which format it is.[13][17] The new file formats are completely different from the older FLV file format. For example, F4V does not support Screen video, Sorenson Spark, VP6 video compression formats and ADPCM, Nellymoser audio compression formats.[1][17] Authors of Flash Player strongly encourage everyone to embrace the new standard file format F4V (ISO base media file format). There are functional limits with the FLV structure when streaming H.264 or AAC which could not be overcome without a redesign of the file format. This is one reason why Adobe Systems is moving away from the traditional FLV file structure.[17]
File Extension Mime Type Description
.f4v video/mp4 Video for Adobe Flash Player
.f4p video/mp4 Protected Video for Adobe Flash Player
.f4a audio/mp4 Audio for Adobe Flash Player
.f4b audio/mp4 Audio Book for Adobe Flash Player

SWF files published for Flash Player 6 and later versions are able to exchange audio, video, and data over RTMP connections with the Adobe Flash Media Server. One way to feed data to Flash Media Server is from files in the FLV file format. Starting with SWF files created for Flash Player 7, Flash Player can play FLV file format directly (MIME type video/x-flv). Starting with SWF files created for Flash Player 9 Update 3, Flash Player can also play the new F4V file format.[1]
[edit] Codec support

Supported media types in FLV file format:[1]

* Video: On2 VP6, Sorenson Spark (Sorenson H.263), Screen video, H.264
* Audio: MP3, ADPCM, Linear PCM, Nellymoser, Speex, AAC, G.711 (reserved for internal use)

Supported media types in F4V file format:[1]

* Video: H.264
* Images (still frame of video data): GIF, PNG, JPEG
* Audio: AAC, HE-AAC, MP3

Support for audio and video compression formats in Flash Player and in Flash Video[1][9][14][16][18] Flash Player version Released File format Video compression formats Audio compression formats
6 2002 SWF Sorenson Spark, Screen video MP3, ADPCM, Nellymoser
7 2003 SWF, FLV Sorenson Spark, Screen video MP3, ADPCM, Nellymoser
8 2005 SWF, FLV On2 VP6, Sorenson Spark, Screen video, Screen video 2 MP3, ADPCM, Nellymoser
9.0.115.0 2007 SWF, FLV On2 VP6, Sorenson Spark, Screen video, Screen video 2, H.264[*] MP3, ADPCM, Nellymoser, AAC[*]
SWF, F4V, ISO base media file format H.264 AAC, MP3
10 2008 SWF, FLV On2 VP6, Sorenson Spark, Screen video, Screen video 2, H.264[*] MP3, ADPCM, Nellymoser, Speex, AAC[*]
SWF, F4V, ISO base media file format H.264 AAC, MP3

* Use of the H.264 and AAC compression formats in the FLV file format has some limitations and authors of Flash Player strongly encourage everyone to embrace the new standard F4V file format.[17]

 

[Erwin-Br]

So . . . you're not interested in employment?

Not at a company like Apple, no.

You know, there's a reason why Apple is not listed in Fortune's Top 100 of Best Companies to work for and Google (4th), Adobe (42nd) and Microsoft (51st) are.

My company is not in that list either, but at least I'm allowed to post on blogs and forums, something that Apple forbids its employees.

 

[drtimhill]

Um .. what????

Feel free to create your own platform and you can do whatever you want.

Apple has chosen a different route. They've chosen to focus on usability and customer experience - and that requires some limitations on what developers can do. Apple customers seem pretty happy with that.

Hooray to usability and customer experience .. i'm with you on that and it's why I use and support Apple products. But what does that have to do with anything? Apple's restriction, as it's written, is attempting to tell developers what tools they can use during the development process. Yes we all know that it's aimed at Adobe, but a whole bunch of other things are getting hit by the shrapnel. The iPhone OS is defined as a set of binary standards, interfaces and services. Compliance to those services should occur at the binary level, not by Apple proscribing HOW those binaries are created.

Scenario: I create an application using C++/xcode. I create the same application using another language Foo. The final applications are BIT-FOR-BIT identical, totally indistinguishable down to the last bit. Apple are saying they can and will reject the second application, an allow the first, EVEN THOUGH they are the same application!

--Tim

 

[Ty C]

Hooray to usability and customer experience .. i'm with you on that and it's why I use and support Apple products. But what does that have to do with anything? Apple's restriction, as it's written, is attempting to tell developers what tools they can use during the development process. Yes we all know that it's aimed at Adobe, but a whole bunch of other things are getting hit by the shrapnel. The iPhone OS is defined as a set of binary standards, interfaces and services. Compliance to those services should occur at the binary level, not by Apple proscribing HOW those binaries are created.

Scenario: I create an application using C++/xcode. I create the same application using another language Foo. The final applications are BIT-FOR-BIT identical, totally indistinguishable down to the last bit. Apple are saying they can and will reject the second application, an allow the first, EVEN THOUGH they are the same application!

--Tim

The tools you use have a lot more than you think to do with the final software that is created. By using Xcode, developers are guided into using apple's User Interface controls and objects. They are forced into using Apple's API and documentation, which in turn creates better software.

The reason that the iPhone has been so successful as a platform is due primarily to the 'look and feel' of iPhone apps. This is HUGELY influenced by the tools used to create the apps. If you use Flashes Packager, all of the UI controls go out the door. Then you're in Windows land.. where is a free for all, and the quality of the apps goes down.

This is why the Windows experience sucks so much. Because every application looks completely different. Different buttons and UI controls. It's completely insane.

I say.. if you want to develop for the iPhone. You have to use the tools that Apple has created and put a ton of time and effort into, and which have made the platform such a wild success.

 

[j-Phone]

Fight back Adobe!!!

Why don't Adobe just fight back and prohibit:
1. Apple from being able to Print to PDF format on OSX
2. Prohibit Photoshop and other Adobe products....

Fight back Adobe!!!! You got some muscle too!

I know this sounds crazy I'm an Apple fan....but I just hate to see a guy get beat up and wine. At least fight back dude!

 

[CountSessine]

I've been a professional developer since 1980 specializing in embedded systems. I know more flavors of assembly language than I'd care to remember. I've designed and built computers at the chip level. And I've written and modified computer operating system, real-time kernels, and even high-level languages.

Now, Mr. High and Mighty, WTF experience are you bringing to the table?

Apple made a good call with this. Their ability to sell product is impacted by end-user experience. If some numb-nuts Flash developer (who laughably thinks what he's doing is "programming") ends up pegging the CPU usage or chewing up all available RAM, making the Apple iPat, iPhone, iPod Touch sluggish, the end user doesn't know why. Then your fellow clueless user gets on some forum and rants about something which he knows nothing. He blames Apple for the 'sluggish multitasking' and slow keyboard response under OS 4.0. And he vows not to buy another Apple product.

So, in conclusion, **** and quit second guessing the marketing and technical decisions coming out of Apple. You're no more qualified to do that than you are to critique Stephen Hawking's understanding of physics.

THIS.

The necessary actionscript-to-c runtime libs will introduce completely needless CPU and memory overhead, for no reason other than to help lazy Flash developers who want to make iPhone apps. Moreover, given that there's no easy way for Apple to introduce a 'battery use' metric to apps in the app store, properly coded Obj-C apps wouldn't necessarily enjoy the market advantage that they should.

Even worse, if the App store is ever polluted with a significant number of these Flash-apps, then Adobe essentially becomes Apple's iPhone platform partner. Apple will have to at least consult them when making any core changes to the sdk that could specifically break the actionscript-to-c runtime, or risk breaking X% of all iPhone apps.

 

[batchtaster]

No wonder Jobs does not like flash..... Sounds to me like Adobe is trying to push Apple to conform to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Video

You realize that all stuff that you just posted is mostly irrelevant? This is NOT about running Flash on the iPhone. This is about a technology, unsanctioned by, and developed independently of, the company that makes the OS it depends upon, that Adobe was incorporating into the Flash application, which would port applications written in Flash to an iPhone native format, just a PowerPoint project can be saved as a QuickTime movie.

 

[Art Mark]

YES, yes, and yes...

I still don't understand when people started to think of Flash as anything BUT bad games and silly animation. Suddenly it was a 'dev environment' and the 'preferred' video standard.

Yeah right. That's why people aren't buying iPhones. Oh wait, people are buying them and they will run better and have better battery life without Flash. If you love Flash, develop more dress-up games with it. But if you want to develop for the iPhone ETC, than use the RIGHT tools.

What is so hard to figure out?

Have not read all the responses; but I for one am so God damned tired of Flash ads and Flash content that could have been done using standard html protocols; which does nothing but chew bandwidth and waste CPU cycles.

In my opinion Flash is good for two things -- dorky simple games and stupid funny cartoons aka Jib Jab (Jib Jab is awesome IMO by the way).

Trying to pawn it off as some sort of programming development platform is a joke. I applaud Apple for putting their foot down and basically saying if you want to play -- you're gonna use open standards.

-mark

 

[kdarling]

Nonsense. Read this rejection from the middle of 2009, and the cited sections of last years SDK agreement:
http://nachbaur.com/blog/open-letter-to-apple-iphone-developer-support

I am familiar with Phonegap.

You missed the outcome of that blogger's later discussions with an Apple developer. It turned out that Apple simply had a mistaken idea of what PhoneGap was/did.

PhoneGap Officially Allowed in App Store

Also, the cited sections you quote had to do with Apple thinking PhoneGap downloaded code. It had nothing to do with using cross-platform tools for the app itself.

The people complaining today were never familiar with the previous SDK, or are playing willfully ignorant to stir things up.

No. Everyone else, whether they're for or against the change, realizes that the rules changed. That's why there's so much discussion.