Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues

[kenman884]

Adobe and the creative community are the only reason Apple has survived the last 10 years, before iPods, iPhones, iPads and such consumer silliness. Those products WOULD NOT exist without Adobe because APPLE WOULD NOT EXIST WITHOUT ADOBE.

I'm a huge Apple advocate but this dispute might have finally made me think otherwise. Am I the only creative that feels this way?

Steve Jobs and Apple are the same as Bill Gates and Microsoft. Petty money-driven greedy silliness.

Apple wouldn't exist without Microsoft bailing them out, but that doesn't mean we Apple owners need to pay them some sort of continuing homage. I believe someone earlier said creative destruction? Without the model T, we would not have cars as we know them, but that doesn't mean everyone should drive a Ford. Adobe has overused their welcome. They made a development and multimedia platform that got popular once. Get over it. New and better (and open!) standards are here.

(Why are computers so easily relatable to cars?)

 

[albusseverus]

Middleware exists for a very good reason.

to sell middleware ?

 

[clayj]

Personally, if I'm the CEO of Adobe, I suspend all development of Mac software products and I pull all of my Mac products (including Photoshop and the new CS5) off the shelf, both effective immediately and until Apple changes their developer licensing agreement. I think Apple needs Adobe far, far more than Adobe needs Apple.

 

[cmaier]

Personally, if I'm the CEO of Adobe, I suspend all development of Mac software products and I pull all of my Mac products (including Photoshop and the new CS5) off the shelf, both effective immediately and until Apple changes their developer licensing agreement. I think Apple needs Adobe far, far more than Adobe needs Apple.

Congrats. You've just turned your $17B company into a $10B company. Your shareholders thank you.

 

[BayouMan]

wow

So may ways to address the myriad of answers.

First off, Apple is selling MORE macs than ever, not less. Their hardware sales still account for nearly 40% of their business. Remember, Apple is a hardware company first and foremost. Protecting that asset is number one priority. And as such, it shouldn't surprise anybody that Apple is trying to protect the user experience on that hardware. Flash is for all intensive purposes CRAP on the Mac platform because Adobe has seen fit to leave it as such.

It's used for games and ads. Making websites "flashy". Big whoop. I'm sure 90% of all customers would forego flashy for websites that aren't as annoying as daily coverage of the misjudgements of Lindsay Lohan and Jessie James.

I applauded leaving flash off the mobile devices, and still do. The processors and memory just can't do the programming justice, and face it, is a 4" screen really appropriate for Flash? NO!

The iPad is a different device, but it uses the same evolving OS. So it's not surprising either that Flash isn't supported. And I sincerely doubt it ever will be. There are options. 50 million iPhone owners and however many iPod Touch owners (and a half million iPad owners) have gotten along just fine without flash. That's a hefty sum of people!

And before anybody cries about Adobe being the victim, let me tell you one thing, this company is no more immune to screwing the customer over than any other. We just found out that after signing 2 year maintenance agreements for our entire $700 CS suite, that one month after the agreements end is when they wait to announce CS5. To renew the agreement is $118 per person. To get the new suite, tack on another $300. So, for half the cost of the new version, we'll get to buy what one month ago would have been free.

Yeah, I'm no Adobe fan. I use InDesign, Dreamweaver, etc., all from CS4 every single day. But I am also aware that there are alternatives out there to do the very same things. There are choices.

And judging by the 150,000 apps for iPhone OS that already are in the market place and the additional 50,000 still seeking approval, there are plenty of choices. And let's face it. There are 3 models of iPhone, on model of iPod Touch, and currently, one model of iPad. That's 5 devices.

And people are worried about Apple killing Flash for the rest of the world? Really? You give them THAT much power? Wow. So much for the Apple Death Knell. Somebody better tell John Dvorak. He still seems to think Apple is dying.

 

[ecualegacy]

Now some people are insinuating that Adobe has a wildcard they can use... At that's DROPPING Adobe CS For The Mac.... The only problem is this... Yes, Adobe CS Mac users would eventually migrate to Windows (most likely - but not right away) but the actual HIT to Apples 'bottom line' would barely register a blip. More and more Mac buyers are NOT Adobe CS customers.

In short, the only thing that would happen is ADOBE would loose about 40% of its ENTIRE bottom line and somehow THAT would not go unnoticed by the shareholders.

Good points. I wouldn't worry much about Adobe CS users moving from Mac to Windows just to follow the software. Certainly some would. But it doesn't take all that much effort to put a copy of Windows on a Mac for far less the cost of a new machine.

 

[Bluestrike2]

Personally, if I'm the CEO of Adobe, I suspend all development of Mac software products and I pull all of my Mac products (including Photoshop and the new CS5) off the shelf, both effective immediately and until Apple changes their developer licensing agreement. I think Apple needs Adobe far, far more than Adobe needs Apple.

And when a shareholder revolt effectively separates you from your position, while at the same time, crippling your future prospects as a business leader, what will you do then?

 

[ur23design]

Show me one HTML 5 site that can compete with sites from http://www.thefwa.com

Stable platform. U mean as stable as my AT&T 3G that fails calls 75 percent of the time. Thanks for that great user experience and protecting me from viewing the most exciting experiences on the web.

50 percent of my iPad apps crash on start up. Constantly.

Can't we all just get along. I was looking forward to using the flash app feature bummer.

 

[Bytor65]

Well as for efficiency, we should all go back to assembler then (been there, done that .. a LOT). But again, Apple have said NOTHING about applications being efficient, you are INFERRING this. What they said was that they reserve the right to reject an app based upon HOW it was developed REGARDLESS of if the app itself is clean, efficient, unbloated etc.

Are you being purposefully Obtuse, or are you just ignorant about the effects of using Virtual Machines, Run Time Translation layers have on the performance of resource constrained machines?

There is also the lowest common denominator result of using cross platform tools.

This is all about a very sensible prohibition against those resource sucking extra layers. I shouldn't have to explain this to a seasoned developer.

 

[dante@sisna.com]

I could've understood Adobe if they were right. But then truth is, flash definitely sucks. A performance hog and most importantly is the main reason for web dirtiness.

Second this.

 

[calderone]

Show me one HTML 5 site that can compete with sites from http://www.thefwa.com

Stable platform. U mean as stable as my AT&T 3G that fails calls 75 percent of the time. Thanks for that great user experience and protecting me from viewing the most exciting experiences on the web.

50 percent of my iPad apps crash on start up. Constantly.

Can't we all just get along. I was looking forward to using the flash app feature bummer.

Yeah, that site is great...

BTW, all of that could have been done with HTML, CSS, and Javascript/JQuery. I did look at the site, take a look at the image of the results with only that site loaded.

 

[iLunar]

Good points. I wouldn't worry much about Adobe CS users moving from Mac to Windows just to follow the software. Certainly some would. But it doesn't take all that much effort to put a copy of Windows on a Mac for far less the cost of a new machine.

The funny thing is, knowing lots and lots of designers (and being a designer), the loyalty is with Apple, not Adobe. If Adobe just jumped off OSX, I think you'd see more designers boot-camping than buying Windows PCs.

 

[ecualegacy]

The funny thing is, knowing lots and lots of designers (and being a designer), the loyalty is with Apple, not Adobe. If Adobe just jumped off OSX, I think you'd see more designers boot-camping than buying Windows PCs.

Exactly

 

[andiwm2003]

flash sucks on macs and it is a security risk on windows. adobe gets the payback for years of shoddy development.

however discrimination against developers based on the original language seems unfair to me. the final apps are going to meet all requirements of apple after all.

I guess it's time for apple to buy pixelmator and create an alternative for photoshop because i don't think they get much support from adobe on that end in the future.

 

[zacman]

BTW, all of that could have been done with HTML, CSS, and Javascript/JQuery.

I think he speaks about the pages that the agency made. Like the new Ikea experience which is really nice and can't be done with HTML5, CSS or JS.

 

[rstansby]

This Brimlow character is a joke, even Adobe has chosen to censor him to save face.

 

[Darkroom]

Adobe priced themselves out of the market. Nobody wants to pay their exorbitant prices. People do because it's 'the standard', but they resent it and have no loyalty to the brand.

This is just Adobe's death throes. Apple is protecting developers from taking the wrong path.

hilarious. you are honestly claiming being against high prices of all things to support loyalty for apple? this is apple inc. we're talking about, not the fruit from the tree.

nice try, though.

 

[calderone]

I think he speaks about the pages that the agency made. Like the new Ikea experience which is really nice and can't be done with HTML5, CSS or JS.

Sorry, the site was sort of a train wreck and not very intuitive, eventually I will find my way to what you speak of.

I also didn't get that it was a firm, seem to be more about awards, the "Favourite Website Awards" to be exact.

EDIT: I did get here: http://www.2gh.de/, where I was greeted with a loading screen for about 2 minutes.

I can't comment on the Ikea Experience because I haven't found it yet. I think I give up though.

EDIT 2: So, http://www.2gh.de/ took my CPU usage to 150%+ with me even interacting with it. Oh and 300MB of RAM as well.

One more thing, can we get back to the topic at hand which is not HTML5 vs Flash.

 

[some12b]

Adobe and the creative community are the only reason Apple has survived the last 10 years, before iPods, iPhones, iPads and such consumer silliness. Those products WOULD NOT exist without Adobe because APPLE WOULD NOT EXIST WITHOUT ADOBE.

I'm a huge Apple advocate but this dispute might have finally made me think otherwise. Am I the only creative that feels this way?

Steve Jobs and Apple are the same as Bill Gates and Microsoft. Petty money-driven greedy silliness.

Who gives a flying f*ck about what happened 10 years ago and who saved what. The fact is their recent products are a pile of garbage.

Adobe is fighting a losing battle by crying foul over someone not using their proprietary platform. CS5 is lusted after in the same way as MS Office - by maintaining a critical mass of users. You really think Adobe is the only choice out there?

Also, if a gazillion middleware are supported, every time Apple comes up with something new, it would have to wait until those platform incorporate those APIs before the fruit of their work is trickled down to the end users. I think that makes Apple's move more than justifiable.


Btw, don't be evil? Bull*****.

 

[DaveGee]

First off, Apple is selling MORE macs than ever, not less. Their hardware sales still account for nearly 40% of their business. Remember, Apple is a hardware company first and foremost. Protecting that asset is number one priority. And as such, it shouldn't surprise anybody that Apple is trying to protect the user experience on that hardware. Flash is for all intensive purposes CRAP on the Mac platform because Adobe has seen fit to leave it as such.

I think for FY2009 it (Macintosh Hardware Sales) was closer to 32% than 40% but either way its far from the 90%+ of not so long ago. And yes Mac sales are ripping along at a great clip and yet Apples other markets continue to mature it will still drop the 'overall importance' of "Macintosh Hardware Sales"... This I say is a good thing. It means companies like Adobe or Microsoft can't hold their 'subpar applications' over our heads and expect us to quiver in fear and the thought of loosing them. Those days on their way out.... Okay, maybe not today but as each fiscal year ticks by and Apples bottom line grows the 'live or die by Mac sales' will become less and less a reality.

 

[theheadguy]

The funny thing is, knowing lots and lots of designers (and being a designer), the loyalty is with Apple, not Adobe. If Adobe just jumped off OSX, I think you'd see more designers boot-camping than buying Windows PCs.

You must design vicariously. Your statement is akin to saying a painter's loyalty is with an easel, not with their favourite canvas, brushes, and paints.

 

[juanster]

The funny thing is, knowing lots and lots of designers (and being a designer), the loyalty is with Apple, not Adobe. If Adobe just jumped off OSX, I think you'd see more designers boot-camping than buying Windows PCs.

This is hard to say. I know lots of designers and web developers (and also myself) who think this is a douchebag thing of apple to do. That said most people I've spoken about it just laugh and don't care. Real/serious developers are not fanboys, and it goes both way. Not Apple fanboys and not Adobe fanboys. Want a site designed sure...want a real rich media experience great a flash site it is, want something in the iPad because it's the cool thing now? sure HTML5 it is. This is not necessarily a bad thing for real developers. This won't kill flash for now. I think HTML5 is the next thing, the NEXT thing, when it can do half as much as flash can.

Html coders are a dime a dozen, good one more scarce. Good object oriented coders (Flash), are scarce, but they usually have a very good understanding of coding/scripting and Html is also easily doable for them too.
This causes problem only with bad Flash Developers that all they can do is Flash.
No biggie, Apple can do what they want. They just follow the money. And so do good developers.

 

[reden]

The iPad won't be an end to flash because in all honesty, the majority of people don't care whatsoever about the iPad.

Woah really? You might want to revise your statement here. You seem to be speaking for yourself and five other people. A lot of people care about the iPad, and a lot of people have bought and will buy the iPad in the future. You are clearly that person that says I will never buy an iPad, and once all your friends buy one, there you are last in line. Good job on making bold statements like that.

 

[LagunaSol]

If the turtlenecked overlord's anger has anything to with this, the Apple Board will be remiss if Jobs is not fired immediately.

LOL! AidenShaw's ultimate fantasy.

(And not. Gonna. Happen.)

P.S. funny you weren't demanding your Lord Ballmer's head on a platter when certain flying chair tantrums came to light.

 

[Bytor65]

Tempest in a Teacup

This really looks like a clarification of previous positions. I really can't see how anyone familiar with iPhone development would find a surprise here.

Apps were rejected in the past for using other development frameworks in years past and this was discussed in the developer community:

http://nachbaur.com/blog/open-letter-to-apple-iphone-developer-support
" Upon review of your application, cannot be posted to the
App Store due to the usage of private API. Usage of such non-public
API, as outlined in the iPhone SDK Agreement section 3.3.2 is
prohibited: (snipped License section below)

The PhoneGap API implemented in your application is an external
framework."


-----------------------------Previous SDK agreement:

www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/files/iphone-sdk-agreement.pdf

3.3.2 An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise. No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).


----------------- New SDK text (anyone have a link to the full text?)

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).


It just looks like a much clearer form of what was there before, what was already practiced before.