FBI Unable to Retrieve Encrypted Data From 6,900 Devices Over the Last 11 Months

[yaxomoxay]

I don't understand this mind set. I never will. The FBI doesn't give a **** about you and me. Are you planning to kill someone? They're looking for the people who will kill us and our families.

That’s because people don’t understand probable cause, affidavits, warrants, chain of custody, exclusionary rule etc.
While I certainly agree that the government should not be able to open each and every phone at the whim of a special Agent or a cop, we do have legal mechanisms to reduce abuse. We just have to make sure that such mechanisms work.

 

[now i see it]

Just remember all you crooked criminals, iCloud backups and documents are freely available to the FBI and Apple will hand them over.

If you're paranoid about an FBI investigation, don't use iCloud for anything.

 

[gnasher729]

Looks like they're going to have to do some good old-fashioned police work instead.

Ten years ago, these 6,900 phones would have been dumb Nokia phones with no storage on them, and no information to extract from them. So nothing has changed, really.

 

[sir1963nz]

So it's the software corporations playing cat and mouse with the federal government, wonderful. You'd think instead of the government trying to crack the code of American companies, they'd get together and work out a rational solution. After all our government should on the same team with American corporations, working together, plugging bugs, and plugging zero day exploits.

The USA only makes up 4% of the worlds population.
EVERY right you give to US law enforcement will be demanded by every other country in the world.

If there is an agreement between ONLY US companies and the US government then all technology will be considered US spyware and blocked leaving these US corporations unable to access 96% of the worlds population. Given that most multinationals make more money outside the USA than they do within the USA and the majority of growth and potential growth is outside the USA then I would suspect a lot of companies will either split into 2 (USA/international) or simply shift to Europe/Asia.

 

[gnasher729]

Really? So the next time hundreds of people get blown the **** up, and you find out this could've been prevented will you be saying the same thing?

I don't understand this mind set. I never will. The FBI doesn't give a **** about you and me. Are you planning to kill someone? They're looking for the people who will kill us and our families.

This is a problem that WILL eventually cause death and destruction, but thats fine right?

There are more guns in the USA than iPhones. There are over 10,000 people murdered by guns every year (and what's worse, 20,000 suicides using guns). Fear of terrorism is totally irrational.

 

[sir1963nz]

Can you walk me through the logic behind your statement? If the FBI goes through the proper channels, dots I's and crosses T's, then Apple will give up your data just like any other company.

Because Apple does not hold the encryption Keys and there is no master key they are no more able to decrypt than anyone else.

 

[Ghost31]

I’m ok with this

 

[ctdonath]

"There's plenty of your data that Apple can access.

And that data is decreasing with every update to iOS.

Yes, Apple will hand over what they can if properly directed to.
Apple has made it very clear they have a long-term policy of making that information less and less accessible, insofar as they can figure out how to secure it without compromising user experience.

As updates & new hardware replace old, there's less Apple can hand over.

 

[69Mustang]

If only it was that easy Yes you can serve people with a warrant compelling them to enter their password, but under duress one could easily claim to have forgotten it. And I highly doubt a judge would convict solely based off a forgotten password, so no "jail time until they give up"

I'm just going to leave this here for ya. Spoiler alert: There doesn't even need to be a conviction for you to sit in jail.

 

[sir1963nz]

There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

Just wait until thousands of US tourists go through this procedure when they travel overseas.

 

[RickInHouston]

The FBI has been pretty quick to proclaim what they can't do. They've also been pretty loud about it too. My inner cynic is telling me something. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Like maybe they're proclaiming this so people have a false sense of security about what they do with their phones???

 

[69Mustang]

And that data is decreasing with every update to iOS.

Yes, Apple will hand over what they can if properly directed to.
Apple has made it very clear they have a long-term policy of making that information less and less accessible, insofar as they can figure out how to secure it without compromising user experience.

As updates & new hardware replace old, there's less Apple can hand over.

Yes it is. Doesn't change the validity of my claim does it?

 

[78Bandit]

Really? So the next time hundreds of people get blown the **** up, and you find out this could've been prevented will you be saying the same thing?

I don't understand this mind set. I never will. The FBI doesn't give a **** about you and me. Are you planning to kill someone? They're looking for the people who will kill us and our families.

This is a problem that WILL eventually cause death and destruction, but thats fine right?

The very foundation of the Constitution is based on respecting the individual. Whether it be through speech, religion, the right to bear arms, the right to be secure in your home and your papers, or any other of the inherent rights to which we all are entitled. Nobody gives up those rights until after they are convicted of crimes in a court of law. As a citizen I am under no obligation to make it easy for government to track my conversations or beliefs.

Requiring a backdoor into the methods of engaging in conversation is a direct assault on free speech. Once it is known the government can access all of your transmissions it will have a chilling effect on people with viewpoints that differ from acceptable norms. Once the backdoor is in place do you really think it will be limited to only one alphabet agency? Of course not, it is inevitable that other agencies will provide their own justification for accessing that information.

For the same reason I would never allow law enforcement to install microphones in my house to capture all my conversations I won't allow them to install a backdoor into my phone to do essentially the same thing with my electronic transmissions.

The argument that some bad things may be prevented is more than offset by the protection of liberty. A bad person with the keys to everyone's private conversations and data is much more of a threat than a terrorist. All you have to do is look at Hitler, Stalin, the Kims in Korea, Hussein, Ghadaffi, Pol Pot, Amein, Pinochet, Papa Doc, and any other myriad of ruthless dictators throughout history to see where excessive power in government is the biggest threat to the lives of multiple millions of people. Just imagine what any of those individuals could have done if they had unfettered access to every dissenting conversation and the technological ability to sort through them quickly.

 

[stevet]

The feds no NOT need in our phones. PERIOD!

The feds aren't trying to get into EVERYONES phones, especially a peon. Learn what you're commenting on before coming up with an almost incoherent comment.

 

[Ntombi]

They need probable cause first. They can’t just get a warrant and demand you unlock your phone.

Which is exactly the point, thanks to a little something called the fourth amendment. They shouldn’t be able to demand your private information without probable cause.

 

[stevet]

Excellent news.

Unless your daughter or sister is kidnapped and they think they can get info by tapping into a suspects phone. Write back in that event....

 

[CarlJ]

They need probable cause first. They can’t just get a warrant and demand you unlock your phone.

Indeed, going on such a "fishing expedition" would be pretty clearly an unreasonable search and seizure. We ought to have a law or an amendment or something to keep the government from doing that.

 

[Santiago]

There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Awesome, so if the cops claim this is your phone and you can't decrypt it, they can jail you indefinitely then!

 

[BC2009]

FBI is so stupid on this point.... you can get encrypted apps on ANY phone even if the manufacturer weakened encryption. It just means that law abiding citizens would now be more vulnerable to attacks on their privacy. Strong encryption is decades old and now that the bad guys know about it, they will make sure they are using it.
[doublepost=1508793952][/doublepost]

If only it was that easy Yes you can serve people with a warrant compelling them to enter their password, but under duress one could easily claim to have forgotten it. And I highly doubt a judge would convict solely based off a forgotten password, so no "jail time until they give up"

You actually cannot be compelled under US law to enter a password that you know. You can use 5th amendment protections. However, you have no expectation of privacy with a fingerprint because you literally leave them everywhere -- so you can be compelled to use your fingerprint (or face) to unlock your iPhone. That is why it is good that you can quickly disable Touch ID and Face ID using rapid pressing of the power button (4 or 5 times?).

What the FBI never mentions is the ring of law enforcement agents that would take women's smartphones, find naked pictures of the women on the phones that they took with their husband or boyfriend and then share the pictures with other law enforcement agents. Not only are you vulnerable to criminals when you don't have encryption, you are vulnerable to those law enforcement agents who are criminals.

 

[Tech198]

I understand people want to keep secret how much porn they have on their phone, but this is a big issue.

lol.... This is why Apple take it so seriously.

FBI can only look at the 'bad' points,, but what about all the good it brings us ? There shouldn't be one way street, but if only the FBI could be trusted, we'd probably have no problem handing a phone to them with the code to unlock, if they could be trusted

 

[NickD73]

Absolutely ridiculous to suggest the FBI should not be allowed access to our phones, assuming they are given a warrant. You wouldn't argue the FBI shouldn't be able to get a warranty to search a home, car, safe, etc, so why not a phone?

 

[kemal]

There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

I'll take the bait. The passcode is stored in your brain along with a whole lot of other stuff. You can not be compelled to revel self-incriminating information in the USA. Your passcode reveals this information. Your fingerprints are not stored in your brain and can be gathered by non extraordinary means.

 

[Garsun]

I have trouble understanding why the FBI is trying so hard to destroy our personal freedom when their primary mandate should be to protect our personal freedoms.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Absolutely ridiculous to suggest the FBI should not be allowed access to our phones, assuming they are given a warrant. You wouldn't argue the FBI shouldn't be able to get a warranty to search a home, car, safe, etc, so why not a phone?

That’s not really the question. The question is if a private company can be compelled (=forced) to weaken its own security.

 

[TouchMint.com]

Good they don’t need access because as soon as they get access the criminals will have access as well. A backdoor for police means a backdoor for EVERYONE!