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Right, all those people running applications which don't exist on current tablet platforms but who are currently hamstrung by the portability and flexibility limitations of a laptop. Such as:

1) Window-washers doing AutoCAD work
2) Scuba divers modelling chemical interactions
3) Bounty hunters who need to render 3D animation during a chase
etc.

Again, if anybody has $1000 to spend on computing I fail to see how the Surface Pro is particularly compelling given the alternatives (Apple and non-Apple alike).

First if you have the availability of a tablet that will do the job over a laptop, why would you EVER bring a laptop? Touch screens (and a digitizer) are just so much more convenient and accessible. You don't need an extreme portability case. Just a couch, or a bar counter or something.

Second, just because there are apps in the app store doesn't mean they can do what a full x86 application can. Think math applications, cad applications, photoshop, network/server management. The list is literally endless.

You really can't come up with a case where there isn't a better full-fat x86 version-- just consider one of the core apps, the browser... can't run addons, extentions or chrome apps. Windows 8 slates are just plain better at that.
 
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First if you have the availability of a tablet that will do the job over a laptop, why would you EVER bring a laptop? Touch screens (and a digitizer) are just so much more convenient and accessible. You don't need an extreme portability case. Just a couch, or a bar counter or something.

Second, just because there are apps in the app store doesn't mean they can do what a full x86 application can. Think math applications, cad applications, photoshop, network/server management. The list is literally endless.

You really can't come up with a case where there isn't a better full-fat x86 version-- just consider one of the core apps, the browser... can't run addons, extentions or chrome apps. Windows 8 slates are just plain better at that.

You have to give up arguing with people like the above. They are being obtuse/stubborn. Just because they don't see a use for it - or Steve/Tim hasn't hailed it a jesus device to solve the worlds ills - clearly it shouldn't exist.

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What about for the Techie? Currently there is no tablet that I can install Oracle, SQL Server, or run Virtual environments. I could think of hundreds of uses as an advanced user. The Office user will settle for an iPad or Google docs. There is not equivalent for a Techie on the tablet. Too bad that is less than 1% of the market.

You can't track changes in any version of Word except the full version of Word. Google Docs won't maintain the format - not will any App.

And as you said - there's a whole "techie"/consultant/etc market as well.

And how about the medical profession. Surely there's an advantage to having one device that can act both as a touch screen but also run full programs and have a keyboard.

For every complaint about the iPad when it launched about what it COULDN'T do - this tablet can.
 
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Just cause it's "new" doesn't make it better. Instead of jumping on every new technology thing cause it's new and exciting, I'd like people to actually think on if it actually improves on anything or solves a problem. I've never felt like, "Oh, I wish I could touch my screen and move stuff."

Much like anything, it depends on how you use your computer. You obviously don't need a touchscreen with a digitizer, but having one right in front of you on your brand new Macbook Air wouldn't exactly hurt you, so long as you're able to use it the way you like.

Me? I'd want both. The traditional way works best for certain things. If I'm typing up a document or something, I'd rather use a normal laptop like a normal laptop. But if I want to use Photoshop, it'd be nice if I were able to flip the thing around, grab a stylus, and start interacting with the screen directly with it and my fingers. Having both would do me better, rather than having two machines that do one or the other.

The biggest thing we need is a UI that's capable of bridging the gap between the two interface styles. Right now, Windows and OSX suck for touch, and iOS/Android aren't anywhere near smooth for tasks that requires a keyboard and mouse. We've still got too big of a divorce between the two.
 
First if you have the availability of a tablet that will do the job over a laptop, why would you EVER bring a laptop? Touch screens (and a digitizer) are just so much more convenient and accessible. You don't need an extreme portability case. Just a couch, or a bar counter or something.

Second, just because there are apps in the app store doesn't mean they can do what a full x86 application can. Think math applications, cad applications, photoshop, network/server management. The list is literally endless.

You really can't come up with a case where there isn't a better full-fat x86 version-- just consider one of the core apps, the browser... can't run addons, extentions or chrome apps. Windows 8 slates are just plain better at that.

Touch screens and a digitizer are not 'just so much more convenient and accessible', especially for software that doesn't currently exist on tablets. Math applications, CAD applications, photoshop etc. would be a total nightmare on a touchscreen or a screen-based digitizer.

And now these people, who need this professional software, are now going to be doing it on a couch or a bar counter? Hrm, yes, let me just model the control systems for this oil rig while I'm having a beer here or riding the bus.

You keep saying 'why wouldn't you want a tablet that will do the job over the laptop' and the answer is because people who currently need laptops aren't going to bother spending $1000 on the Surface Pro when it's time to upgrade their computer because it's simply not as good. The benefits simply aren't there - people who need laptops might as well get a laptop again because the tablet capability offers no marginal value; and people who don't need a laptop don't need to waste their money on the Surface Pro.

Fictional scenarios where the device is an MBA with a touch screen and everything else remains the same are just that, fictional - they don't magically make the Surface Pro any better for the user than it currently is.
 
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Your opinion.

Touch screens for photoshop would be a disaster. Hi. Let me introduce you to Wacom's Cintiq 24HD

800x600_DTH2400HD_01.jpeg


Touch screens and a digitizer are not 'just so much more convenient and accessible', especially for software that doesn't currently exist on tablets. Math applications, CAD applications, photoshop etc. would be a total nightmare on a touchscreen or a screen-based digitizer.

And now these people, who need this professional software, are now going to be doing it on a couch or a bar counter? Hrm, yes, let me just model the control systems for this oil rig while I'm having a beer here or riding the bus.

You keep saying 'why wouldn't you want a tablet that will do the job over the laptop' and the answer is because people who currently need laptops aren't going to bother spending $1000 on the Surface Pro when it's time to upgrade their computer because it's simply not as good. The benefits simply aren't there - people who need laptops might as well get a laptop again because the tablet capability offers no marginal value; and people who don't need a laptop don't need to waste their money on the Surface Pro.

Fictional scenarios where the device is a laptop with a touch screen and everything else remains the same are just that, fictional - they don't magically make the Surface Pro any better for the user than it currently is.
 
Math applications, CAD applications, photoshop etc. would be a total nightmare on a touchscreen or a screen-based digitizer.

And now these people, who need this professional software, are now going to be doing it on a couch or a bar counter? Hrm, yes, let me just model the control systems for this oil rig while I'm having a beer here or riding the bus.

Are you kidding me? CAD programs you can interact with in a much more traditional drafting style method? Photoshop? A program designed around pressure based pen input and exacting brush strokes? These programs would be a nightmare with a screen based digitizer?

What the hell? It's like you're looking for things to complain about.
 
Touch screens and a digitizer are not 'just so much more convenient and accessible', especially for software that doesn't currently exist on tablets. Math applications, CAD applications, photoshop etc. would be a total nightmare on a touchscreen or a screen-based digitizer.

And now these people, who need this professional software, are now going to be doing it on a couch or a bar counter? Hrm, yes, let me just model the control systems for this oil rig while I'm having a beer here or riding the bus.

You keep saying 'why wouldn't you want a tablet that will do the job over the laptop' and the answer is because people who currently need laptops aren't going to bother spending $1000 on the Surface Pro when it's time to upgrade their computer because it's simply not as good. The benefits simply aren't there - people who need laptops might as well get a laptop again because the tablet capability offers no marginal value; and people who don't need a laptop don't need to waste their money on the Surface Pro.

Fictional scenarios where the device is an MBA with a touch screen and everything else remains the same are just that, fictional - they don't magically make the Surface Pro any better for the user than it currently is.

Pretty much everything you are saying is completely what I will be doing. I use 3ds max, mudbox, brush, photoshop. A touch screen with a wacom digitizer with the unit all built into one is EXACTLY what I want... being able to sculpt directly onto a model... and yeah why not at the pub while I have a drink ? if i have an idea il sketch it down... doing game design some of the best ideas are invented in such places...

So I can't wait to get a surface pro to do my art on.
 
Are you kidding me? CAD programs you can interact with in a much more traditional drafting style method? Photoshop? A program designed around pressure based pen input and exacting brush strokes? These programs would be a nightmare with a screen based digitizer?

What the hell? It's like you're looking for things to complain about.

Some people took the blue pill, they are not ready to be unplugged. :)
 
Touch screens and a digitizer are not 'just so much more convenient and accessible', especially for software that doesn't currently exist on tablets. Math applications, CAD applications, photoshop etc. would be a total nightmare on a touchscreen or a screen-based digitizer.

Photoshop is a "total nightmare" on a screen-based digitizer? Did you really just say that?

As for the rest, you're just plain wrong. Here's a quote from someone that's actually used a Clover Trail slate as a grad student, rather than just being a fruit-label fan boy--

But let me reiterate and say that the 500T handles mathematica, stata, and spss smoothly and will pretty much handle anything that an undergrad or grad student throws at it.

Carouser said:
And now these people, who need this professional software, are now going to be doing it on a couch or a bar counter? Hrm, yes, let me just model the control systems for this oil rig while I'm having a beer here or riding the bus.

Clearly you don't have any actual experience in using computing devices without convenient seating and/or desks. If you're an IT guy convenient resting spots aren't something you can rely on; in a server room or data center, that just doesn't happen. For engineers, precisely the same. And frankly a tablet is a more convenient and accessible option in the 90% situations in life where you don't have good seating and a resting place.

You keep saying 'why wouldn't you want a tablet that will do the job over the laptop' and the answer is because people who currently need laptops aren't going to bother spending $1000 on the Surface Pro when it's time to upgrade their computer because it's simply not as good. The benefits simply aren't there - people who need laptops might as well get a laptop again because the tablet capability offers no marginal value; and people who don't need a laptop don't need to waste their money on the Surface Pro.

Fictional scenarios where the device is an MBA with a touch screen and everything else remains the same are just that, fictional - they don't magically make the Surface Pro any better for the user than it currently is.

Name a process that a macbook can do that an icore slate pc can't.
 
Running Java Web applications is another plus for this tablet. Some enterprise applications require this capability and I can't use a Chromebook, Android, iPad to run these Java applications. I know Java has it's issues and it is getting dragged in the mud with security like Flash did. It makes me question it's future with the tablet / mobile support today. But this Surface Pro can handle it today.
 
Leave it to Lenovo to design a better "lablet", which takes the form of X series. The keyboard will double as a giant battery.
 
Anyone who has worked as a draughtsman would know that there is zero advantage to touching a screen and that this has no connection to how drafting was done prior to CAD software.

As for the Wacom products, I stand corrected - clearly the Surface Pro is going to succeed because people who need professional digitizers can now replace their pricey studio gear with the Surface Pro. Looks like Microsoft really does understand their audience. I thought it was just people who needed Excel or Matlab on a touchscreen, but it's also professional visual artists too.

I guess Microsoft actually did make a great product that will address the currently unmet needs of people who make a living on their computers. Mea culpa.
 
Leave it to Lenovo to design a better "lablet", which takes the form of X series. The keyboard will double as a giant battery.

The Helix. Its "rip and flip". You can use the keyboard dock hybrid like a keyboard, or flip the screen around in the dock and fold it completely flat and just use the extra battery. The Helix is pretty drool worthy.. although I'm waiting for the Haswell version.
 
"it's ultimately brought down by trying to be both a tablet and laptop at the same time. "

Really...no kidding. Could have told you that would happen before it was even made.
 
I can be just as stubborn as you. The Wacom tablet pictured is close to 4K. And isn't very portable. You originally said that something like photoshop fails with a touchscreen/digitizer. Yes. You're completely wrong. And there are many people that would love to use photoshop on a portable device.

And you still seemingly refuse to answer my question - who would buy an iPad at $999?

You don't really have to answer anything I've written. You've made your point abundantly clear. YOU see no value in the surface. But you trying to convince others that there's no value is a dead end, my friend. You aren't going to convince someone who has a different use case then yours. Welcome to the real world.

Anyone who has worked as a draughtsman would know that there is zero advantage to touching a screen and that this has no connection to how drafting was done prior to CAD software.

As for the Wacom products, I stand corrected - clearly the Surface Pro is going to succeed because people who need professional digitizers can now replace their pricey studio gear with the Surface Pro. Looks like Microsoft really does understand their audience. I thought it was just people who needed Excel or Matlab on a touchscreen, but it's also professional visual artists too.

I guess Microsoft actually did make a great product that will address the currently unmet needs of people who make a living on their computers. Mea culpa.
 
So it's worse than a tablet, worse than a laptop and more expensive than both with less than half the battery life and no keyboard. Apple has nothing to worry about. Zune.

That's the problem with so many"hybrid"devices,isn't it?Sometimes when you try to do too many things you end up doing them all badly.
Will it be a crappy tablet and a crappy PC?Time will tell but going strictly by the reviews I wouldn't consider dropping that much cash just yet.
 
There's absolutely no evidence that the 'phablet' form factor is particularly popular. Even Google's Android statistics don't support that idea.

It's an observation bias - if there are ten people with a normal sized phone, and one with an absurdly huge one, which one do you notice? The one with the large phone.
 
I guess Microsoft actually did make a great product that will address the currently unmet needs of people who make a living on their computers. Mea culpa.

It's a great device for professional users (or will be, which I'll get into below), but I wouldn't dare call it an iPad killer. See, the iPad and Mini are nearly perfect for what they do. They're media consumption devices with some capabilities for light workloads. I can't think of any one machine that does this job better than they do (well, besides the Android tablets, but I ain't about to get into that argument).

...the problem here is some people seem to be under the impression that this is all a tablet should be. That the iPad is perfect, and anything that tries to do more is instantly flawed right out of the gate because...hey, the iPad is perfect. If it were a good idea, the iPad would already be doing it. This is what I and quite a few other people here take issue with.

Take what ri0ku said above. Mudbox (Zbrush is better FYI :p), Photoshop, Maya, Modo, Max. These are all programs that are meant to be used with a stylus against a screen. Drawing tablets? Mice? They're all surrogates meant to get us by until the day of the onscreen digitizer finally comes. This is what the Surface Pro is ultimately meant for. While it doesn't succeed flat out just yet, it's a great first step in the right direction. When they start catching on, you'll eventually see other programs start taking advantage of touchscreen UIs.

Right now, the one biggest thing keeping us from this glorious day are the UIs for these programs, and the OSes capable of handling them. Contrary to what people say, Win8 isn't a too-much-tablet-for-a-desktop OS. It's 99% a desktop OS with some touchscreen niceties thrown in as a half step towards...whatever. The same thing applies to Photoshop, Zbrush, and the rest. They're programs best used with a stylus against the screen, but the UIs are still very much meant to be used with a mouse on a large screen. PS in particular has tons upon tons upon tons of tiny little icons that look fine on a 15+ inch screen, but would be very difficult to see and hit on a 10.1 inch touchscreen. The same applies to Win8 in general. Yeah, it's got some tablet stuff in there, but the desktop is still a desktop. It's better with a mouse on a larger screen.

This is where the Surface fails in my opinion. It's a great machine, but the UI lets it down. Yeah, it's an Ultrabook in a tablet format, but it's still in a tablet format. Slapping a keyboard and mouse on it kinda defeats the purpose of what it ultimately is. It needs a UI to go along with that snazzy hardware and design. A UI it currently doesn't have. If you have to set it up like an Ultrabook to use it comfortably, you might as well buy an Ultrabook. The Lenovo Yoga and its ilk are much better Win8 machines than the Surface currently is.

The good news is if Windows 9 comes out with a much better touch-centric UI for the desktop, then the Surface becomes that much better of a machine the instant it comes out. The bad news is it isn't there right at this moment. It's great for the potential, that first step towards something a little more complete, but it isn't an absolutely must have machine as it exists right now.

The entire idea of a touch-centric tablet PC capable of everything a traditional desktop/laptop does isn't a bad idea. It just needs more work before it gets there.
 
It's an observation bias - if there are ten people with a normal sized phone, and one with an absurdly huge one, which one do you notice? The one with the large phone.

Correct. Every time I notice I think is dum and silly. But then again, I have an iPhone, drive a Prius, eat healthy food, and have nothing to prove.

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The problem with this device is that it runs windows. If I could run Linux on it, I would purchase it..., nahh, i rather buy a telescope for the same price.


It's a great device for professional users (or will be, which I'll get into below), but I wouldn't dare call it an iPad killer. See, the iPad and Mini are nearly perfect for what they do. They're media consumption devices with some capabilities for light workloads. I can't think of any one machine that does this job better than they do (well, besides the Android tablets, but I ain't about to get into that argument).

...the problem here is some people seem to be under the impression that this is all a tablet should be. That the iPad is perfect, and anything that tries to do more is instantly flawed right out of the gate because...hey, the iPad is perfect. If it were a good idea, the iPad would already be doing it. This is what I and quite a few other people here take issue with.

Take what ri0ku said above. Mudbox (Zbrush is better FYI :p), Photoshop, Maya, Modo, Max. These are all programs that are meant to be used with a stylus against a screen. Drawing tablets? Mice? They're all surrogates meant to get us by until the day of the onscreen digitizer finally comes. This is what the Surface Pro is ultimately meant for. While it doesn't succeed flat out just yet, it's a great first step in the right direction. When they start catching on, you'll eventually see other programs start taking advantage of touchscreen UIs.

Right now, the one biggest thing keeping us from this glorious day are the UIs for these programs, and the OSes capable of handling them. Contrary to what people say, Win8 isn't a too-much-tablet-for-a-desktop OS. It's 99% a desktop OS with some touchscreen niceties thrown in as a half step towards...whatever. The same thing applies to Photoshop, Zbrush, and the rest. They're programs best used with a stylus against the screen, but the UIs are still very much meant to be used with a mouse on a large screen. PS in particular has tons upon tons upon tons of tiny little icons that look fine on a 15+ inch screen, but would be very difficult to see and hit on a 10.1 inch touchscreen. The same applies to Win8 in general. Yeah, it's got some tablet stuff in there, but the desktop is still a desktop. It's better with a mouse on a larger screen.

This is where the Surface fails in my opinion. It's a great machine, but the UI lets it down. Yeah, it's an Ultrabook in a tablet format, but it's still in a tablet format. Slapping a keyboard and mouse on it kinda defeats the purpose of what it ultimately is. It needs a UI to go along with that snazzy hardware and design. A UI it currently doesn't have. If you have to set it up like an Ultrabook to use it comfortably, you might as well buy an Ultrabook. The Lenovo Yoga and its ilk are much better Win8 machines than the Surface currently is.

The good news is if Windows 9 comes out with a much better touch-centric UI for the desktop, then the Surface becomes that much better of a machine the instant it comes out. The bad news is it isn't there right at this moment. It's great for the potential, that first step towards something a little more complete, but it isn't an absolutely must have machine as it exists right now.

The entire idea of a touch-centric tablet PC capable of everything a traditional desktop/laptop does isn't a bad idea. It just needs more work before it gets there.
 
Your opinion.

Touch screens for photoshop would be a disaster. Hi. Let me introduce you to Wacom's Cintiq 24HD

Image

There you go, that's the perfect Digitizer Tablet for designers. I always wanted to have one, just that I could not afford it, and I don't make a living designing... nor I could consider myself a designer/artist.

I'm happy with my iPad. :D
 
So, by the time you've bought the covers it is a decent laptop price. Not seeing the benefit of the surface then. Maybe slightly more portable, but that is it.
 
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