Flash Player 10.2 is out, do you want the optimized Flash Player on iPad?

[rawlus]

Flash is old news.
Flash is a security risk.
Flash is buggy.
Not really interested in flash, or any of the content that insists being delivered exclusively via flash.
I don't have an issue with iOS not supporting it, I don't have an issue with nothing supporting it anymore
There is better tech out there.
Sometimes choice is not a choice at all.

 

[flexengineer]

Apple didn't make the decision for you. You bought a device knowing it doesn't have that feature and likely never will.

Lot of us did not, I did but lot of people did not, it took a long time for Steve Jobs to publish his historical rant on Apple.com and even after that, Apple reached the masses, the masses do not even know about Flash or barely know who Steve Jobs is, if not by name. Most people figured it out by seeing things being broken, now Apple instead does not show anything at all so it looks like you are not missing anything... Grab an Android and compare, there are videos out there showing comparative of some websites in PlayBook and iPad, the HTMl5 alternative of some Flash websites is insulting on a $400 to $800 device.

(1) Flash is not great tech, even if it is popular

Flash is very vague, there are 10 major versions of the Flash Player, 4 major versions of the Flex SDK and 2 major versions of the Adobe Integrated Runtime (AIR) and a full ecosystem of both open source and proprietary technologies and tools. I do believe Flash 10.2+, Flex 4.5 and AIR 2.5 on PC, Mac, Linux, smartphone, tablet and connected TVs are awesome technologies ahead of competition in many respects. Also, most people think Flash as video but it is way more than that and it is the dominant technology for applications across all platform and screens, there is a reason why Apple is afraid of it and keeps a smoke screen around it.

Pardon me for splitting hairs but selling a tool to facilitate conversion of Flash to HTML5 certainly is "getting in on the act."

First of all it is an experiment not a tool, secondly it is a brilliant initiative from Adobe to help the advertising industry convert all theirs Flash ads to HTML5, when all ads will be HTML5 that argument that Flash is just ads will disappear and the real nature of Flash will be able to shine. Most applications that trully leverage Flash Platform can't be converted to HTML5 as certain as 1 + 1 can't add up to 3. It is also not Adobe walking away from Flash, the whole industry is actually betting on it and baking it in.

(2) If they include the option, it will either be off by default or people will leave it on and not bother to change it, because they don't understand it. This will affect negatively many people's experience of using the iPad.

I do not think so, nothing would refrain Apple to have a "touch to start" for Flash. If you don't touch it does not start, a monkey could figure it out. Update: sorry I thought you meant people will leave it on regardless, my bad. I take the "I don't think so" back.

(3) To implement an easy solution (Flash content has a button: do you want to see this content?) is not really that easy a solution

Can you explain why it is not really that easy a solution?

It's not mp4, it's HTML5, and plenty of developers have been doing just that.

Neither MP4, nor HTML5, nor H.264 or anything that Apple supports or allows in the browser on iOS can come even close to compete a set of rock solid enterprise class technologies such as the Flash Platform. Also, nothing matches the Flash development community, there are 3 million of us, there are maybe 100 or 200k iOS developers and this is going to even shift more as Flash spread and Apple is isolating itself. We deploy Flash app everywhere at once, you only deploy iOS apps on iOS so it's a no brainer, you think businesses want to build apps for Apple or for the world?

We need to move forward, it might be painful for some (not for me). If we keep adding flash, then it will just become a permanent crutch and we'll never get beyond that. It's like a physical rehab patient. It's easier to keep using a walker and it does what you need it to do, it allows you to crawl, albeit not really good. Eventually you have to put the walker aside so that you can learn to run.

You should google Flash Platform, Flex 4.5, Flash Media Interactive Server, AIR 2.5… There is nothing in this world that matches Adobe's offering when it gets to Rich Internet Applications, which applications also work almost as it on any desktop and most new smaortphone, tablets and some smart TVs. Also, 8 out of 9 of world's largest device manufacturers committed to Flash through Open Screen Project and this is what the industry's CEOs have to say about Flash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CwI227m-hs

With all due respect, I think you have an outdated vision of Flash.

Apple. Can every single developer of flash websites (millions upon millions) convert their content to mp4?

Your question is the same as asking if you can convert all websites in video… of course not, a website is not a video and a Flash website is a complex application that it is impossible to produce on iOS devices without ejecting user out of the browser into Apple's control with a 30% tax.

Do you think you should blame Gizmodo for their web design or Apple for not having Flash?

Apple has to support the web, they decided to not and as Android spread consumers will become conscious of that.

Flash is old news. Flash is a security risk. Flash is buggy.

Flash is not nearly as old as Quicktime. Flash is not as much a security risk as Apple giving away your phone ID to who ever make a proprietary app. Flash is not nearly as buggy as iTunes on 90% of world's computer also known as PCs.

 

[afireintonto]

Flash would be nice to have but I don't want it always on. I like not seeing so many ad's. If there was a way to 'click for flash' like on the Mac I'd really like that.
Ikea's website sucks without flash

 

[AppleHater]

I'm rather annoyed by the frequent updates on Flash and Java. I figured that they're that much unstable. What's really bothering me is that why can't they make it transparent instead of having "update available" message popping up all the time even after check marking "don't want update" box.

 

[dmaul1114]

Sometimes including more options has unintended consequences or side-effects. I suspect you think those which would occur in this case are negligible or not relevant, but more options is simply not always better.

It's still rather have the options. I'm 100% a PC guy. I appreciate the openess etc. and would rather have the security risks etc. to having a walled garden and a company making decisions for me and limiting my options.

Just personal preference. I'm not an Apple fan and never will be. They just make the only decent tablet currently. I'll happily move away from the iPad platform in a few years when there are hopefully better competing tablets out there, and hopefully MS has made a decent Tablet PC finally.

 

[flexengineer]

Bad news for iOS and us users, if like I believe Adobe is on its way to accomplish on the mobile what it has repetitively accomplished on the web and computers, iOS might become a second class mobile operating system where all the new good stuff (especially cheaper media and entertainment) is blocked. We already see it happening right now with Amazon new offerings for movies, TV and music.

Adobe to Bring Flash Access to Mobile Devices
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articl...ces-74678.aspx

Pushing even further, if for any reason iPad or iPhone lose its popularity and fall to 10% market share (which is not very far, I think iPhone is 20% or so) then we might see application developers and publishers simply skip iOS all at once, the same way Microsoft DRM (ruling the industry for a while) entirely skipped all Mac users. The difference is that Flash works on Mac and can work on iOS, while Microsoft did not want Windows DRM to work on Mac and used it against Apple, very different behaviors!

Then, Apple fans are going to cry and victimize themselves. It's call karma, back fire and payback also known as what goes around comes around. The war on Flash is Steve Job's personal vendetta and it is time to put an end to it.

 

[Funkymonk]

I have flash 10.2 on a android phone. it works very smooth and I like it.

would be really nice to have it on my iphone4


edit: for people voting no, why would you not even want the choice?

 

[shandyman]

I have flash 10.2 on a android phone. it works very smooth and I like it.

would be really nice to have it on my iphone4


edit: for people voting no, why would you not even want the choice?

cos people are going by the title of the thread, not what the poll questions as no1 never notices if they're different.

personally i don't want flash on my iPhone, the only sites i visit that use flash are the ones that use it for adverts and it just slows my PC down, the amount of time it pops up saying the browser is being slowed down by flash is annoying me. i'm actually about to remove flash from my PC so i don't have to deal with it anywhere.

 

[flexengineer]

cos people are going by the title of the thread, not what the poll questions as no1 never notices if they're different.

personally i don't want flash on my iPhone, the only sites i visit that use flash are the ones that use it for adverts and it just slows my PC down, the amount of time it pops up saying the browser is being slowed down by flash is annoying me. i'm actually about to remove flash from my PC so i don't have to deal with it anywhere.

Your Flash player is outdated, you should update to 10.2+. As far as ads is concerned, Adobe has released a tool to convert Flash ads to HTML5 ads so it is irrelevant. Your computer is not slowed down by Flash, it is slowed down by ignorant developers and it does not matter what they use, it will slow down your computer, HTML5 and especially javascript included. So, before to complain about ads and performance issues make sure it is Flash.

As far as what you are missing, I invite you to check my post #56 because it is way more than a few ads, you are cutting yourself from all products and services that do not give 30% to Apple and work directly in the browser, meaning you will always globally pay more for your apps and media or entertainment content than on any other Flash enabled mobile operating system.

Saving on parts cost is not the only way Apple found to maintain such high margins, surcharging its customers is another one.

 

[Carouser]

Then, Apple fans are going to cry and victimize themselves. It's call karma, back fire and payback also known as what goes around comes around. The war on Flash is Steve Job's personal vendetta and it is time to put an end to it.

You are invested in this way too much. Just listen to yourself.

 

[shandyman]

Your Flash player is outdated, you should update to 10.2+. As far as ads is concerned, Adobe has released a tool to convert Flash ads to HTML5 ads so it is irrelevant. Your computer is not slowed down by Flash, it is slowed down by ignorant developers and it does not matter what they use, it will slow down your computer, HTML5 and especially javascript included. So, before to complain about ads and performance issues make sure it is Flash.

As far as what you are missing, I invite you to check my post #56 because it is way more than a few ads, you are cutting yourself from all products and services that do not give 30% to Apple and work directly in the browser, meaning you will always globally pay more for your apps and media or entertainment content than on any other Flash enabled mobile operating system.

haha really? so you know everyhing do you? you can see my PC and you know what version i'm running?? how wrong you are. i'm running 10.2.153.1. i always stay up to date with my software, it's like an OCD. flash is still responsible for the slowdown, whether it be the developers or adobe. me, nor the casual user care about that. you'll get the same problem on flash for mobiles too. I know fine well it's flash as for one thing, it's come up telling me adobe flash is slowing me down and do i want to disable it. plus i went for about 3 months with flash uninstalled and funnily enough myPC ran perfectly fine, i put flash back on to see if its better, but no, slow again.

so really, you know my pc better than me? since i've been building my own PC since i was 13, i'm 30 now, so i think i know more than joe public about stuff.

As far as what you are missing, I invite you to check my post #56 because it is way more than a few ads, you are cutting yourself from all products and services that do not give 30% to Apple and work directly in the browser, meaning you will always globally pay more for your apps and media or entertainment content (games, music, magazines and premium movies included) than on any Flash enabled mobile operating system and that is in part why Apple is banning Flash.

actually i'm not missing anything by not using flash. going thru your points - Games - does flash on a mobile device give me a game like Infinity Blade? do they even make Infinity Blade for use in flash? nope. Music - my music is either played thru the iPod app, which is all the music from my pc, either downloaded or purchased, or radio is played via a web app for BBC Radio 1 or via a 50p app call OoTunes. again neither via flash. Magazines - only really read Empire magazine, which has its own free app on the iPhone and i buy the magazine in-app for less than a hard copy and you can't read that on the web via flash, as for movies, same as how i do music.

Flash is not the be all and end all. it can easily not be used these days. back in the early 2000's flash was everywhere, these days not so much. it's started it's waning period of it's lifecycle. adobe is trying to stoke the fire by porting it to mobiles and making a big issue out of it. Apple know it's on the out, thats why they have backed HTML5.

you're in denial...

You are invested in this way too much. Just listen to yourself.

yea he's close to maniacal lol. i was actually in hysterics reading his reply to my post.

he'll be an emotional wreck in a coupla years when HTML 5 has made flash redundant.... lol

 

[NT1440]

It doesn't even run well on my laptop, why would I want to do that to my poor mobile devices?

 

[flexengineer]

It doesn't even run well on my laptop, why would I want to do that to my poor mobile devices?

Good, keep it turned off then because there are lot of other people who surprisingly have none of those problems and it is none of Apple's or its fans's business to decide whether or not we can use Flash on our equipment.

flash is still responsible for the slowdown, whether it be the developers or adobe. me, nor the casual user care about that. you'll get the same problem on flash for mobiles too. I know fine well it's flash as for one thing, it's come up telling me adobe flash is slowing me down and do i want to disable it. plus i went for about 3 months with flash uninstalled and funnily enough myPC ran perfectly fine, i put flash back on to see if its better, but no, slow again.

I already answered that:

Adobe has released a tool to convert Flash ads to HTML5 ads so it is irrelevant. Your computer is not slowed down by Flash, it is slowed down by ignorant developers and it does not matter what they use, it will slow down your computer, HTML5 and especially javascript included. So, before to complain about ads and performance issues make sure it is Flash.

actually i'm not missing anything by not using flash. going thru your points - Games - does flash on a mobile device give me a game like Infinity Blade? do they even make Infinity Blade for use in flash? nope. Music - my music is either played thru the iPod app, which is all the music from my pc, either downloaded or purchased, or radio is played via a web app for BBC Radio 1 or via a 50p app call OoTunes. again neither via flash. Magazines - only really read Empire magazine, which has its own free app on the iPhone and i buy the magazine in-app for less than a hard copy and you can't read that on the web via flash, as for movies, same as how i do music.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience and little habits with us, even tho fascinating your experience is only yours, I posted enough evidences that iOS users are missing offerings, the fact that you do not miss them is irrelevant. To be honest, who cares what and how YOU buy? I want to use Amazon Music Cloud instead of iTunes because (that is probably the case of 90% of computer users cause iTunes sucks for them, PC users) but I can't cause Apple decided so. I want to save 40% on my Netflix and to do that I need Amazon which is in Flash, I do not care you dont want it, I do and look at the poll I do not think I am the only one around so stop polluting the thread with your personal opinion, you are diluting the conversation and I will bring moderator attention to it if you keep going.

 

[shandyman]

Good, keep it turned off then because there are lot of other people who surprisingly have none of those problems and it is none of Apple's or its fans's business to decide whether or not we can use Flash on our equipment.

lol so just cos you claim everyone else has no problems with it, it's a non-issue? there's tons of people that have similar issues. open your eyes. you're worse than the hardcore apple fanbois!! apple aren't perfect, i have issues with things they do and that, but they're right on this flash issue.

I already answered that:

lol you must not have read what i had written. If you had, you would know that i specifically narrowed it down to being the fault of Flash.

funnily enough, i've not had any problem with HTML 5 yet.

 

[ct2k7]

lol so just cos you claim everyone else has no problems with it, it's a non-issue? there's tons of people that have similar issues. open your eyes. you're worse than the hardcore apple fanbois!! apple aren't perfect, i have issues with things they do and that, but they're right on this flash issue.



lol you must not have read what i had written. If you had, you would know that i specifically narrowed it down to being the fault of Flash.

funnily enough, i've not had any problem with HTML 5 yet.

I don't have any problems with Flash. HTML5 ads are annoying, and send my fans spinning.

 

[flexengineer]

lol you must not have read what i had written. If you had, you would know that i specifically narrowed it down to being the fault of Flash. funnily enough, i've not had any problem with HTML 5 yet.

I did but you once again dissolve the thread or did not understand, I said all Flash ads and basic animations are being converted to HTML5 so while this is done and ads are still Flash yes you are going to face the problem without HTML5 showing any signs and then when all ads will be HTML5 and used the same way (pushed to the limit for animation and catchiness) you will have the same symptoms but you will not be able to blame Flash for it, that is precisely why I believe Adobe is working on Wallaby that most people think is a replacement for Flash when it fact it will be a replacement to Flash ads, dumping them on HTML5 and letting Apple explain its users why it's still as messy and slow with HTML5. That is assuming you have Flash Player 10.2, which you say you have, otherwise there are other issues but 10.2 solved them.

The present and future of Flash is applications with Flex and AIR and video with Flash Access protection, everything else we are happy to hand it to HTML5!! Flash has moved on from just an animation platform almost 8 years ago with Flex so all this is way outdated and really only make Steve Jobs case.

 

[shandyman]

I did but you once again dissolve the thread or did not understand, I said all Flash ads are being converted to HTML5 so while this is done and ads are still Flash yes you are going to face the problem without HTML5 showing any signs and then when all ads will be HTML5 and used the same way (pushed to the limit for animation and catchiness) you will have the same symptoms but you will not be able to blame Flash for it, that is precisely why I beieve Adobe is working on Wallaby that everything think is a replacement for Flash when it fact it will be a replacement to Flash ads, dumping them on HTML5 and letting Apple explain its users why it's still as messy after Flash. That is assuming you have player 10.2, which you say you have, otherwise there are other issues but 10.2 solved them.

lol you're talking about flash ads being converted to HTML, but right now they aren't HTML 5, they're flash, some non-existant at this minute HTML 5 ads are not slowing down my PC right this second. Flash ads are. that is my point. i've not had any problems with HTML5 yet, if i do, i will complain about that too. but my point is that flash is blatantly slowing my PC down right now. even the advert on this page is running in flash.

plus my post was not a question, it was a statement of fact, therefore did not need an answer. but you musta felt like your precious flash was being insulted.... i clearly stated that flash was at fault, i'd narrowed it down to that by process of elimination and the fact that on many occasions it's come up saying flash is slowing my pc down and do i want to disable it. Again you chose to ignore that fact...

The present and future of Flash is applications with Flex and AIR and video with Flash Access protection, everything else we are happy to hand it to HTML5!! Flash has moved on from just an animation platform almost 8 years ago with Flex so all this is way outdated and really only make Steve Jobs case.

Don't even start me on AIR, had so much problems after installing that for stuff like tweetdeck i gave up on it after 6 months and never reinstalling that again.

 

[flexengineer]

plus my post was not a question, it was a statement of fact, therefore did not need an answer. but you musta felt like your precious flash was being insulted.... i clearly stated that flash was at fault, i'd narrowed it down to that by process of elimination and the fact that on many occasions it's come up saying flash is slowing my pc down and do i want to disable it. Again you chose to ignore that fact...

Ok fine then, so tell me again why having Flash on iOS turned off by default is a problem?

 

[shandyman]

Ok fine then, so tell me again why having Flash on iOS turned off by default is a problem?

cos it's a waste of space. now optional download to install is fair enough. but having it there as a default even if it's turned off by default is just a waste of space that could be better used for something else.

 

[flexengineer]

cos it's a waste of space. now optional download to install is fair enough. but having it there as a default even if it's turned off by default is just a waste of space that could be better used for something else.

Let me make sure I got that right, you want to refrain the world from having the choice to have Flash on iOS because it is a waste of space? You know Flash player is something like 250k right?

Update: I just saw the "optional download" mention, I would be fine with that, out of 10 to 20 million android with Flash by the end of 2010 (depending the sources) 6 million users went to the android store on their own to install Flash. Allowing to download and install Flash will not allow Apple to carry the mission (kill Flash) so yes just let me download Flash player on iOS whenever I want and I will not complain anymore.

 

[shandyman]

Let me make sure I got that right, you want to refrain the world from having the choice to have Flash on iOS because it is a waste of space? You know Flash player is something like 250k right?

Update: I just saw the "optional download" mention, I would be fine with that, out of 10 to 20 million android with Flash by the end of 2010 (depending the sources) 6 million users went to the android store on their own to install Flash. Allowing to download and install Flash will not allow Apple to carry the mission (kill Flash) so yes just let me download Flash player wherever I want and I will not complain anymore.

see, that will teach you to read fully before replying.

anyway, using flash still drains battery life. so if i had flash on my iphone or ipad now, a flash ad will be running draining my battery more than it would without flash being installed on that same site cos it's still a drain on resources

 

[ste1164]

I can live easily without flash it's not a necessity. It slows down web page loading and uses more battery life anyway. If I REALLY needed flash is use my laptop

 

[flexengineer]

see, that will teach you to read fully before replying.

Fair enough

anyway, using flash still drains battery life. so if i had flash on my iphone or ipad now, a flash ad will be running draining my battery more than it would without flash being installed on that same site cos it's still a drain on resources

Nope, if you do not click on the ad it will not play, if you do not click on a Flash app it will not run so there is no way Flash would consume battery if you do not use it and with click to start you chose what to use or not.

Adobe also conducted studies showing that HTML5 uses as much resources as Flash when used for the same purpose, battery consumption is a consequence of CPU usage right? So it will be the same when people will convert their animations and ads to HTML5 except you can't stop HTML5, it will play no matter what (unlike push to play solution), so basically you get all the disadvantage of Flash and none of the advantage and by doing so you are carrying on Apple's mission to make the web useless without to know it, all that so Apple can force you into proprietary apps with a 30% tax to do a lot of stuff businesses could do freely on the web, that is an overhead cost that the publisher will pass to you.

 

[shandyman]

Fair enough



Nope, if you do not click on the ad it will not play, if you do not click on a Flash app it will not run so there is no way Flash would consume battery if you do not use it and with click to start you chose what to use or not.

Adobe also conducted studies showing that HTML5 uses as much resources as Flash when used for the same purpose, battery consumption is a consequence of CPU usage right, so it will be the same when people will convert their animations and ads to HTML5 except you can't stop HTML5, it will play no matter what (unlike push to play solution), so basically you get all the disadvantage of Flash and none of the advantage thanks to Apple.

wrong, right now on this site, the tesco ad at the top of the page is playing. the video ad on aintitcool.com is playing without me even clicking it and if i mouseover accidentally it plays automatically.

personally i've had great experience on HTML5 sites and nothing but trouble on flash sites.

but then again, you're totally biased since flash is your occupation from what i can see. i'm not an apple fanboi, i'd really love them to sort out the notifications system on iOS, as it's really crap compared to other ones. they could do with sorting out custom text tones too. these are 2 areas i think should have attention rather than the lack of flash when flash is in a decline to the end of it's life.

 

[Carouser]

Good, keep it turned off then because there are lot of other people who surprisingly have none of those problems and it is none of Apple's or its fans's business to decide whether or not we can use Flash on our equipment.

It's entirely Apple's business what the capabilities of their devices are. What a ridiculous thing to say.