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So basically there is no realized advantage to your statement of the PPW VLIW problem. I'm not trying to bust your chops, but if you're going to say that MS is dropping x86 because Intel cannot overcome certain limitations, then I'd like to know what that means in real world usages.

Arm does have advantages and disadvantages, to be sure, and Intel has their own advantages and disadvantages.


actually you did

The realized advantage is PPW.

I do not see where I stated that they would drop Intel. Just that they would drop x86. Intel has had ARM and RISC architectures in the past and they recently announced that they are working on RISC-V.

Things haven’t been going especially well for Intel in the past few years. It has had multiple setbacks with its fabrication processes that has considerably set back its chipset timeline. This has severely hampered its ability to deliver chips that can deliver a combination of power and efficiency that is especially important in laptops. Most notably, this has led to Apple abandoning Intel for its entire product portfolio as it shifts to its own custom Arm-based chip designs.

Ironically, Intel once owned XScale, which made Arm-based SoCs that once powered the Pocket PCs and PDAs of yesteryear. Unfortunately for Intel, it sold its XScale business in 2006, the year before Apple launched the iPhone and paved the way for Arm-based chips to dominate the mobile market. Intel’s own x86-based Atom competitors simply couldn’t match the more efficient RISC architecture underpinning Arm-based designs. Intel is now investigating a possible ‘Plan B’ in a new partnership between it and RISC-V fabless chip designer SiFive.

The partnership will see Intel license SiFive’s IP to create its own SiFive P550-based 64-bit SoC that it will fabricate on its new 7 nm node. It will form the basis of a new development platform Intel is calling Horse Creek, and will be made available to customers interested in exploring its potential in various applications involving embedded SoC tech. This could mean smartphones, but also cars, IoT products and the like. If Intel gets enough interest, it could take the relationship further. Intel hasn’t yet revealed the technical specifications of the SoC, so we don’t know whether it will be a single-core or multi-core platform, although the latter is likely. It's GPU tech is also unknown at this time, but Xe-based graphics are likely.



Intel has to move in this direction. They are already losing business to AMD because of power efficiency. There is a lot of software stickiness with x86 but the power advantages will make ARM irresistible which is why you have so many companies announcing initiatives.
 
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So basically there is no realized advantage to your statement of the PPW VLIW problem. I'm not trying to bust your chops, but if you're going to say that MS is dropping x86 because Intel cannot overcome certain limitations, then I'd like to know what that means in real world usages.
Not at the moment. But if this decode buffer turns into a major speed advantage, it will be like GPUs. Try to run any modern game on a 10 year old GPU and even if in theory it runs fine, it will be too slow to be usable.

I liked the bulb-vs-LED analogy. People also didn't believe LEDs were capable of anything except for little lights in your TV, Hi-Fi, ... Until the advantage of lower power waste was combined with higher power ceilings. Then suddenly, a 14W LED was capable of replacing a 100W bulb. We may be seeing the same here. Yes, both run the software we need. But at the moment, the humble (spec-wise, as in monitors and USB etc) M1 already beats top level Intels. If ARM and V-RISC producers start doubling down on this decode advantage, it may well spell the end of the VLIW vs RISC debate.

Speculative, but very interesting.
 
I have been contempting switching my desktop to a PC for awhile, and a couple years ago I pretty much got to the point of running Windows 10 99% of the time on my iMac, mainly because I am gaming more than ever with Xbox Game Pass and my hobby that involved using Apple’s creative apps has dried out. And now with Windows 11 and my need to always have the latest OS, and since I can’t play the vast majority of my large game catalog on an M1 Mac, I decided to get a mid-range gaming PC. There weren’t many to choose from due to the chip shortage, and I did not want to build one, but I found a pretty good HP Omen.

Was pleasantly surprised to find that HP PCs come with software called QuickDrop, which lets you copy text and files between your PC and an app for iOS, which makes switching between devices easier. I also use iCloud for Windows for my iCloud Passwords, bookmarks synced with Edge, Outlook and iCloud Drive in File Explorer.

I use the displays extra HDMI port with my MacBook if I want to use things like Apple News or Apple Arcade games on the larger display, but have to manually turn it to mirroring mode afterwards because changing input does not remove the 2nd display from my Mac.

I have stopped purchasing media from Apple services that only work on Apple devices, so I will purchase movies from Apple TV that also play on my Google TV, but I will not buy ebooks/audiobooks from Apple Books until there is a Windows app for it and instead buy on Kindle/comiXology or Nook. I like to read on my desktop as much as on my iPad.
 
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I'm back to flip flopping once again. Brand new laptop, fresh clean drive, new wifi module and no operating system. Thing came with windows. Ripped the low on space included drive out, been basically sitting on the thing over a month now and just stuck. Really don't like Microsoft's saas intrusiveness, but Linux ugh, to many variables and searching to see if something I want to use will actually work on the os.

I burned the latest mint iso booted, poked around the live desktop and shut down which ended up with more errors, probably something to do with AMD iommu.

Can't make up my mind seems it's a catch 22 😖
 
I'm running some long-running setup stuff on my Windows PC (i7-10700) and it's putting out a noticeable amount of heat. CPU temps are in the 40s and CPU usage is around 20-30 percent. I'm somewhat surprised to see CPU core clocks running at 4.6 Ghz most of the time. CPU packge power is running 30-60 Watts but spending most time between 30-45 watts. Power consumption when CPU is around 2% is about 5 Watts. It's kind of amazing to see the power consumption ramp up so high with relatively light workloads.

Fans are running at 1,000 RPMs so barely audible. I have to put my ear next to the machine to hear them. This is a pretty dramatic difference from the M1 mini. Intel and AMD are working pretty hard to make new processors but what would be great is a focus on minimizing power consumption. The best way to do that for my workloads is higher core counts rather than really big cores. I suspect that a CPU comprised of Golden Cove cores would be better for my workloads than their Performance cores.

AMD hasn't really gotten in the big-little game; perhaps they don't need to due to using TSM's fabs.
 
I'm running some long-running setup stuff on my Windows PC (i7-10700) and it's putting out a noticeable amount of heat. CPU temps are in the 40s and CPU usage is around 20-30 percent. I'm somewhat surprised to see CPU core clocks running at 4.6 Ghz most of the time. CPU packge power is running 30-60 Watts but spending most time between 30-45 watts. Power consumption when CPU is around 2% is about 5 Watts. It's kind of amazing to see the power consumption ramp up so high with relatively light workloads.

Fans are running at 1,000 RPMs so barely audible. I have to put my ear next to the machine to hear them. This is a pretty dramatic difference from the M1 mini. Intel and AMD are working pretty hard to make new processors but what would be great is a focus on minimizing power consumption. The best way to do that for my workloads is higher core counts rather than really big cores. I suspect that a CPU comprised of Golden Cove cores would be better for my workloads than their Performance cores.

AMD hasn't really gotten in the big-little game; perhaps they don't need to due to using TSM's fabs.
I've got a Dell Precision 7750 for a work laptop with Intel Xeon processors. When McAfee (yes, I know, not my choice) decides that it is going to a system scan... my whole office heats up significantly and it sounds like a server fan going off. Compared to the M1? Yeah. lol. But, you know, they're two very different devices. Still, I'm looking forward to using this laptop as a heater for my office in the winter - and that 230w power supply as a foot warmer. LOL.
 
I've got a Dell Precision 7750 for a work laptop with Intel Xeon processors. When McAfee (yes, I know, not my choice) decides that it is going to a system scan... my whole office heats up significantly and it sounds like a server fan going off. Compared to the M1? Yeah. lol. But, you know, they're two very different devices. Still, I'm looking forward to using this laptop as a heater for my office in the winter - and that 230w power supply as a foot warmer. LOL.

I'm in my home office in the basement and it's unheated and it's in New Hampshire. It gets as cold as 20 below here and I run a space heater when that happens. My Windows desktop doesn't use that much power for my production stuff so it normally doesn't put out a lot of heat. Having an 8-core CPU probably helps. My ideal system would probably be something with 20 cores that run at low-clocked speeds. Intel and AMD won't make something like that for consumers because of the die costs. I would get another M1 mini but I need to run one Windows program.
 
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My HP Omen with an AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 8-Core 3.8GHz has a CPU temp of over 50°C when it's not doing much. (currently 56° with 5% utilization). I only really feel the heat when I am playing a game like Forza 4 or Flight Sim (most of the games I play are significantly less intense) and it is almost silent. The Omen Gaming Hub has an overclocking setting and for some reason the minimum is 120x. And sometimes I will check it and it will be higher without any input from me.

The Gaming Hub sometimes gives me an error before I am about to log back in, but I am still able to stream most Game Pass games on my PC to an app on my iPad w/ a DualShock 4. Another pleasant surprise when I was setting up this PC.

I have also started to put my PC to sleep whenever I am not using it. I can use Wake on LAN, which I could not do with my iMac, and as I like to remotely connect to my PC.
 
I'm split between the Surface Laptop Studio and a 2013 trash can Mac Pro so I can run Bootcamp and Windows. Can't decide at the moment.
 
I'm split between the Surface Laptop Studio and a 2013 trash can Mac Pro so I can run Bootcamp and Windows. Can't decide at the moment.
Avoid the trash can at all costs. Never talk of it again. The thing was a bad design from the start. On top of that, it's already quite outdated.

PS don't go with ANY aftermarket internal SSDs for the trash can. I have RMA'd almost every single one we sold....
 
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Avoid the trash can at all costs. Never talk of it again. The thing was a bad design from the start. On top of that, it's already quite outdated.

PS don't go with ANY aftermarket internal SSDs for the trash can. I have RMA'd almost every single one we sold....

You made me laugh with that first line. It is in my radar, however it’s a cool design and would work well, but it’ll also be several years old and second hand. I’ll be checking out all the new Macs at the weekend and may become a hypocrite of the Arm Macs and like them. I kinda do like the 24” iMac design.. an M2 version may be cool, and I could afford one brand new. I’m a bit sceptical of Windows, my current acBook Pro is nearly 12 years old, it has a knackered battery and smells a bit funny when in use, but, it STILL works. That’s what I want from my next computer. I have no issues paying it for a maxed out M2 24” iMac IF I can get it to do what I want, the M1 version has had loads of high praise. I just don’t dig these notches on the new MB Pro screens…
 
You made me laugh with that first line. It is in my radar, however it’s a cool design and would work well, but it’ll also be several years old and second hand. I’ll be checking out all the new Macs at the weekend and may become a hypocrite of the Arm Macs and like them. I kinda do like the 24” iMac design.. an M2 version may be cool, and I could afford one brand new. I’m a bit sceptical of Windows, my current acBook Pro is nearly 12 years old, it has a knackered battery and smells a bit funny when in use, but, it STILL works. That’s what I want from my next computer. I have no issues paying it for a maxed out M2 24” iMac IF I can get it to do what I want, the M1 version has had loads of high praise. I just don’t dig these notches on the new MB Pro screens…

This urban myth of Windows PCs somehow not working after a few years needs to go. There is a shocking amount of corporate/infrastructure systems running on PCs with Windows XP from 20 years ago :eek:
 
This urban myth of Windows PCs somehow not working after a few years needs to go. There is a shocking amount of corporate/infrastructure systems running on PCs with Windows XP from 20 years ago :eek:
With updates turned off and no changes in the configuration. Once you start installing and uninstalling software or drivers, it can deteriorate fast.
 
With updates turned off and no changes in the configuration. Once you start installing and uninstalling software or drivers, it can deteriorate fast.

Windows 11 is the first release that's shutting down a lot of older systems.

I still have two Windows XP systems that still work. I have a todo entry to get the data off and then dispose of them though I may just put in a Craigslist entry to give them away. I'm sure Ubuntu would run just fine on them. It somewhat depends on the hardware that you selected when you bought it. Some stuff just dies a horrible death and it's not worth it to try and fix it and some stuff is like an old car that you can just keep running.
 
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Windows 11 is the first release that's shutting down a lot of older systems.

I still have two Windows XP systems that still work. I have a todo entry to get the data off and then dispose of them though I may just put in a Craigslist entry to give them away. I'm sure Ubuntu would run just fine on them. It somewhat depends on the hardware that you selected when you bought it. Some stuff just dies a horrible death and it's not worth it to try and fix it and some stuff is like an old car that you can just keep running.
I was talking about the software, not the hardware. I have people here who use their macs for years, installing and uninstalling everything they come across. They run just fine. But other users who are more gentle with their Windows machines, the machines become gradually slower. Reinstall it and it feels like new. On a mac, a reinstall doesn't rejuvenate it like a Windows reinstall does, because it doesn't deteriorate so badly in software.

It's better now than with Windows 95 or Vista, but it's still there. Nothing wrong with using Windows, but to keep using it on the same PC for more than 2-3 years, do a reinstall every so often.
 
I was talking about the software, not the hardware. I have people here who use their macs for years, installing and uninstalling everything they come across. They run just fine. But other users who are more gentle with their Windows machines, the machines become gradually slower. Reinstall it and it feels like new. On a mac, a reinstall doesn't rejuvenate it like a Windows reinstall does, because it doesn't deteriorate so badly in software.

It's better now than with Windows 95 or Vista, but it's still there. Nothing wrong with using Windows, but to keep using it on the same PC for more than 2-3 years, do a reinstall every so often.

It's really both though.

I have a 2008 Dell XPS Studio. I put in 48 GB of RAM, an SSD and a USB-3.0 card and it runs Windows 10 quite well. It has a Core i7-920 which is decent, even today. I could upgrade the CPU to a higher-frequency but I've more or less retired the system since building a Windows desktop last year. It's still quite usable and it is my backup Windows desktop.

Windows 10 did a great job at keeping old software running. I suspect that they optimize their software based on the CPU that you have in your system. There is often an optimizer program running in the background after an upgrade. Windows has a big enough marketshare where it would be worthwhile optimizing operating system software for the ISAs and latencies that can differ slightly from Intel generation to generation.

I also have a 2009 iMac 27. I haven't used it in a few months but it is usable as a television and for some office tasks. It will run up to High Sierra. I have considered trying to put Mojave on it using OCLP but I have two Apple Silicon Macs that do what I need to for computing though I don't have the MacBook Pro integrated into my workflow yet. I would actually still probably use it if it had a Core i7 instead of a Core 2 Duo. The Core 2 Duo is a big limitation on performance. These things still sell on my local Craigslist; also 2010s, and 2011s.
 
With updates turned off and no changes in the configuration. Once you start installing and uninstalling software or drivers, it can deteriorate fast.
Hmmm, there is another computer company, I cannot remember the name, where updates can also cause major issues. What is that name? I think it begins with A? Hmmmm.
 
Hmmm, there is another computer company, I cannot remember the name, where updates can also cause major issues. What is that name? I think it begins with A? Hmmmm.

Microsoft is going with annual updates for Windows 10 and decreasing security updates overall. I expect a lot of people are staying on Windows 10 as long as they can for a variety of reasons.
 
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Hmmm, there is another computer company, I cannot remember the name, where updates can also cause major issues. What is that name? I think it begins with A? Hmmmm.
I'm not talking about when an update borks the computer. I'm talking about regular updates and upgrades. With my 2013 13" retina MBP, I installed every single update as soon as it came out. I was lucky that none of them gave problems after installation. But the computer never slowed down just because I installed an update. With Windows, computers slow down just because you installed an update successfully.
 
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I'm not talking about when an update borks the computer. I'm talking about regular updates and upgrades. With my 2013 13" retina MBP, I installed every single update as soon as it came out. I was lucky that none of them gave problems after installation. But the computer never slowed down just because I installed an update. With Windows, computers slow down just because you installed an update successfully.

Some of that is the complexity of the Windows hardware world. Apple has to support far less hardware than Microsoft.

My approach, unless it's a new operating system with a new computer, is to try the OS out on an external SSD or Virtual Machine first.
 
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Some of that is the complexity of the Windows hardware world. Apple has to support far less hardware than Microsoft.

My approach, unless it's a new operating system with a new computer, is to try the OS out on an external SSD or Virtual Machine first.
Yeah, that makes sense. I always reinstall the OS from scratch as well when a machine gets a new purpose. It just freshens everything up for the new user.
 
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I'm a newbie here, and to Apple also. I've been using Windows since 3.1 and DOS before that. My Apple ecosystem is ancient but interesting, and based around a Mac Pro 2,1. Running Lion. I then got given an iPad 3 and an iPhone 4S. The screen on the tablet is fabulous. The form of the 4S is great. The Pro is a glorious looking thing. The Pro and MacOS will be a long time study, as it were. But the mobiles reminded me of a thing, just one thing, that will ensure I never buy a new one. I once had a 3GS, and it was great, but... But... No constant number keys on the keyboard. Just that. An egregious error in my eyes, especially to keep this error on the larger format. So my lustful gaze at a 13 Mini will remain just a passing fancy.
The Pro, though. That might well be fun, limited though it is in OS terms. Twin 3GHz Xeons and 32GB is not a lightweight machine. And as the motherboard on my W10 big box just died, maybe I'll run it as my daily driver for a while.
But, IMHO, both systems, this far down the line, can equally claim to "just work".
 
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