Flip Flopping between macOS and Windows

[groove-agent]

And this is always going to be an issue for developers. That gaming will forever be a secondary (at best) use for Mac owners, it will never be attractive enough for them. Unless people are buying Macs to game on the market just isn't there. Apple will never produce a budget-friendly AAA-capable gaming Mac.

What about the person that buys the Mac for productivity but doesn't want to pay again for a PC just to game? What if that person took that money and got a killer Mac for the same price of two machines? Why do people buy gaming PCs when they can buy a console for less money? Maybe because they can do more with it and it has better value?

Spending big money on a AAA gaming Mac wouldn't be so weird. People spend thousands of dollars on gaming machines also. If Apple builds the SoC hardware to outperform PCs, people will see the value and want to game with it. Maybe Windows will go to ARM and porting games won't be such a chore. Who knows.

I guess we could be cynical, wallow in the past and say for certain that it will never happen as if we can predict the future, or, we can be excited about the possibility of Mac gaming given the recent advancements in AS.

I suppose only time will tell. I'll save all the nay sayer's user names and give you a fat "I told you so" in 3-5 years. Remember, this website is called "Macrumors" not "Mac-doomers".

 

[groove-agent]

You make two points, first you're 100% correct that no one will buy a Mac to game on. Your second point - people who own a mac will use it to game given the opportunity, here's why disagree with statement.

I never said "no one will buy a Mac to game on". I said "not many will".

Secondly you're making judgements based on how Macs are now (underpowered etc). I'm making judgements on the potential future of the Mac hardware which *could* very well turn things around while others say "it will never happen" as if they have a crystal ball. Nobody probably would have thought Apple would make the #1 selling smartphone in the 90s either.

That being said, why was Shadow of the Tomb Raider (AAA) released on the Mac?

 

[maflynn]

Secondly you're making judgements based on how Macs are now (underpowered etc).

I am basing my judgement on the here and now, because the here and now is known. Most businesses and consumers base their purchasing decisions on what's currently available.

I'm making judgements on the potential future of the Mac hardware which *could*

And I'm making a judgement call on the current state. Game publishers are not about to hire a whole development time based on what apple may do in the future.

That being said, why was Shadow of the Tomb Raider (AAA) released on the Mac?

Why is Cities:Skylines 2 on Consoles, and PC but not for the Mac - Especially since Cities:Skylines 1 is?

 

[LeeW]

What about the person that buys the Mac for productivity but doesn't want to pay again for a PC just to game?

That's their choice, just because they have a Mac does not entitle them to anything. Again, developers today and for the foreseeable future are not interested in Macs because the market is too small to be viable. I am talking about the mainstream AAA games everyone has the choice of on PC. A small percentage of those who only use Mac is going to be interested in gaming and not all of them are going to be that interested to buy games in high enough numbers.

Many surveys of Mac users have been done over the years and all showed that the percentage interested enough in gaming was so small that developers suggested they wouldn't even break even if they ported their titles to the Mac.

Why do people buy gaming PCs when they can buy a console for less money?

If that is a serious question you clearly don't understand, so I won't waste my time explaining.

I'll save all the nay sayer's user names and give you a fat "I told you so" in 3-5 years.

Sure, save it like others before you who said the same thing 3-5 years ago, maybe you were one of them then. Nobody is saying never, just not now or in the foreseeable future. Apple is advancing on the gaming front, not because of any focus or specific interest in gaming outside of Apple Arcade. Simply because their hardware is advancing and more capable. Will that get better in the future? Sure, it will. That is how technology works. But back to the developers, makes no difference how capable a Mac becomes. Without developer support you still have nothing.

It reminds me of the iPad and them getting the M1 chip, M2 now in fact. What more can you do with that amazing hardware on the iPad? Nothing really.

That being said, why was Shadow of the Tomb Raider (AAA) released on the Mac?

Not just the Mac, but also released on Linux. I suggest you take a quick look at why, it was nothing special in relation to the Mac specifically.

 

[groove-agent]

Sure, save it like others before you who said the same thing 3-5 years ago, maybe you were one of them then. Nobody is saying never, just not now or in the foreseeable future. Apple is advancing on the gaming front, not because of any focus or specific interest in gaming outside of Apple Arcade. Simply because their hardware is advancing and more capable. Will that get better in the future? Sure, it will. That is how technology works. But back to the developers, makes no difference how capable a Mac becomes. Without developer support you still have nothing.

Not just the Mac, but also released on Linux. I suggest you take a quick look at why, it was nothing special in relation to the Mac specifically.

FYI, most of my questions were more rhetorical in nature. I wasn't one of those people who "said the same thing 3-5 years ago", I was probably more in your camp saying gaming on the Mac was unlikely (but not impossible). All I'm saying is you can't deny the exciting potential of AAA gaming on the Mac via Apple Silicon. I find it close-minded for people to say determinately and with unwarranted authority: "it will never happen".

Ironically, I found a really good thread on Mac gaming here which is pretty much the same debate:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-wwdc-metal-3-resident-evil-thoughts.2347213/

It's funny how the OP describes people who crap on Mac gaming:

"...all the usual doomsday verdicts by PC pessimists about Apple not caring about gaming or devs not caring about Mac."

You might be interested in Capcom's comment on Apple Silicon. Of course the nay-sayers think that Apple paid Capcom to say it:

"With its incredible performance now the Mac with Apple Silicon is a great platform for games. And with the support for new Metal 3, our game screams on Apple Silicon, from the MacBook Air to the blazing-fast Mac Studio. Look how fluid we’re able to move through these hauntingly beautiful scenes. We’re using high-quality textures, geometry, and complex shaders. And with MetalFX upscaling we’re able to render amazing high-resolution visuals across the entire line, with MB Air running effortlessly at 1080p and Mac Studio delivering a breathtaking 4K experience. Previously this was only possible with high-performance consoles and gaming PCs, but we’re now able to bring this to every Mac with Apple Silicon. We’re simply astound by the fidelity these new Macs enabled us to achieve. These new Macs handle whatever we throw at them effortlessly. That’s incredible."

Anyway, no point it wasting more time on this age old debate. Time will tell if AS will bring AAA gaming to the Mac. We shall see.

 

[LeeW]

It's funny how the OP describes people who crap on Mac gaming

I will end this by saying that nobody here has crapped on Mac gaming other than the current lack of ability or suggested devs don't care about Mac at all. In fact, everyone here commenting has no reason not to want the Mac to transform into a capable gaming machine when we all own a Mac. Where games do work well on the Mac, I play them on it.

Devs will start caring enough when they can see a profit. Not before. But for them to see a profit they need more than the current user base and a device that makes sense for gamers, not just Mac users.

 

[LiE_]

M2 Mac Mini has shipped, hoping it comes before the eta of 27th. Current going through customs in China.

Also caved and ordered the Studio Display 😅 having used a few 5K panel in the past including the ASD I know what I’m missing out on. The current 0% 24 months made it easier on the wallet.

Amazon will love me once again for opening returns for things.

Have my iPhone SE 2022 and so far so good.

 

[LeeW]

M2 Mac Mini has shipped, hoping it comes before the eta of 27th

There we go, I knew it would come. Normal service resumed.

Also caved and ordered the Studio Display

That will be going back within the return window.

 

[unrigestered]

😮
that's not even flip-flopping, that's high frequency oscillation 😂

 

[keithop]

M2 Mac Mini has shipped, hoping it comes before the eta of 27th. Current going through customs in China.

Also caved and ordered the Studio Display 😅 having used a few 5K panel in the past including the ASD I know what I’m missing out on. The current 0% 24 months made it easier on the wallet.

Amazon will love me once again for opening returns for things.

Have my iPhone SE 2022 and so far so good.

jealous. Love receiving new apple products and that mac mini m2 is a beast

 

[LeeW]

My M2 Mac Mini is proving itself. Very snappy, and handles a lot more than previous devices, and although people complain about fan noise, I am yet to hear it.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

My M2 Mac Mini is proving itself. Very snappy, and handles a lot more than previous devices, and although people complain about fan noise, I am yet to hear it.

People probably are purposely putting their ear on the box to hear it. I always love the fan noise complaints. Even my i7 in my dell and my xps at full honk are essentially silent. A little whoosh from my notebook, no big deal. That's only when exporting videos.

 

[maflynn]

A little whoosh from my notebook, no big deal

Here's my take, everyone has different thresholds of acceptance. One person may not even hear the fans, because its at a frequency and/or amplitude that they either don't hear, or are not bothered, but someone else does hear it and it annoys them to no end.

My wife always tells me that I'm deaf as clam - she's not entirely wrong, but I can hear the fans on my desktop and Razer laptop. Its not a pleasent sound and to me its something that will annoy me over time. I've configured both the desktop and Razer to run cooler, i.e., slower and the fans now barely ramp up (the Razer's still does on game playing but that's unavoidable)

My point is everyone's different and for many people it can and is a big deal

Btw, I have a Lenovo Extreme X1 laptop (unused) and its fans are annoying, and there's little I can do to manage it. That's one reason (of many) why I stopped using that and got a Razer instead.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

Here's my take, everyone has different thresholds of acceptance. One person may not even hear the fans, because its at a frequency and/or amplitude that they either don't hear, or are not bothered, but someone else does hear it and it annoys them to no end.

My wife always tells me that I'm deaf as clam - she's not entirely wrong, but I can hear the fans on my desktop and Razer laptop. Its not a pleasent sound and to me its something that will annoy me over time. I've configured both the desktop and Razer to run cooler, i.e., slower and the fans now barely ramp up (the Razer's still does on game playing but that's unavoidable)

My point is everyone's different and for many people it can and is a big deal

Btw, I have a Lenovo Extreme X1 laptop (unused) and its fans are annoying, and there's little I can do to manage it. That's one reason (of many) why I stopped using that and got a Razer instead.

Oh, I agree 100 percent. But ALOT of people blow the fan thing way out of proportion.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Oh, I agree 100 percent. But ALOT of people blow the fan thing way out of proportion.

I agree with @maflynn on this one. The problem is that we got used to M1 Macs and their (in the case of the Air, literally) little to no fan noise or heat.

I am slightly deaf in one ear, but I can hear the fans on my G14 Zephyrus if they ramp up at all and it is annoying if I am not gaming with it—then I don’t mind so much as its obviously necessary.

So I changed the fan settings and nerf the OP laptop a little on silent. Now for 98% of the time I use it, it is perfectly cool and quiet. Same as my macbook air. And the 2%, I can ramp up the performance and fans.

The more I think about this though, you are right too in that it is deeply personal — what bugs one person may not bother another person at all. My wife will listen to photography training videos through her desktop speakers. Where I can hear every word, for instance. I love her in spite of this fact LOL.

 

[keithop]

Here's my take, everyone has different thresholds of acceptance.

definitely agree.

I hate ANY fan noise that I can hear but I can usually live with a low, consistent level... what I definitely can't live with are the windows laptop that sound like theyre "breathing".... fan starts, stops.... starts, stops...... then without really doing much, blam, ramps up for a few seconds, and back down to breathing

 

[LiE_]

definitely agree.

I hate ANY fan noise that I can hear but I can usually live with a low, consistent level... what I definitely can't live with are the windows laptop that sound like theyre "breathing".... fan starts, stops.... starts, stops...... then without really doing much, blam, ramps up for a few seconds, and back down to breathing

Yes very intrusive.

Decided to return the iPhone SE 2022, battery life was really bad, could see it going down by the minute. I have a iPhone 13 Mini on the way, had one in the past that I really liked. Perfect size.

The debate now is whether to keep the 13 Mini long term and just get a camera again for proper photos. Or just get the 15 pro come September. Phone cameras offer convenience and can take good photos but they don’t produce anything close to what my Fuji cameras of the past have.

 

[keithop]

The debate now is whether to keep the 13 Mini long term and just get a camera again for proper photos. Or just get the 15 pro come September. Phone cameras offer convenience and can take good photos but they don’t produce anything close to what my Fuji cameras of the past have.

yep, easy to forget how good cameras like the Fuji are. I've kept my Fujis and Leicas but sadly the convenience of the phone cameras win out most of the time nevertheless, I'm always amazed and thrilled by the output from the "proper" cameras when I do take them out.

 

[kamikazeeMC]

13 Mini long term and just get a camera again for proper photos.

This is the way. I've always preferred a dedicated camera, but over the last few phone generations I was starting to think the phone cameras were good enough for my usage, leading me to get the Pixel 7. That has turned me off that idea not really liking the camera on it, I want a small dedicated camera I can EDC.

Hoping for a X-E5 or X100VI at Fuji X Summit..

 

[The point and shoot pro]

yep, easy to forget how good cameras like the Fuji are. I've kept my Fujis and Leicas but sadly the convenience of the phone cameras win out most of the time nevertheless, I'm always amazed and thrilled by the output from the "proper" cameras when I do take them out.

As a photographer, The output from phones are just "not there". Great for the instabook postings, but for printing large prints, just not there. You can tell the electronic whizbang'ery! I shoot all brands of cameras, and even my old ones from fuji, Olympus etc all output better images than any of my phones. Plus the satisfying feel of the camera in your hand is just .......better. I do have a grip and case for my iPhone for when we are out exploring and want to pop some stuff on Instagram or whatnot, but when I am working, my iPhone is for texting and calling and the cameras are for the work.

 

[maflynn]

As a photographer, The output from phones are just "not there".

I'm not disagreeing but stand alone cameras are an endangered species. There will always be cameras for professionals, and prosumers but that's where it stops.

Back a few years ago, you would go to disneyworld and every father, husband, boyfriend would be lugging around a DSLR with ginormous lenses. Now? I see more people using iPads instead of cameras (never mind phones, lol)

13 Digital Camera Sales and Statistics – Updated In 2023

1. Camera sales peaked in 2010 when more than 120 million units shipped globally.
2. Globally, 2022 is expected to see a $21.7 billion revenue.
3. Canon still dominates the camera market with a 45% market share.
4. Sony and Nikon are 2nd and 3rd place in market share.
5. Despite having the third-highest market share, Nikon posted a loss of more than $250 million for the first half of 2021.
6. Cameras with interchangeable lenses now make up the majority of digital camera sales.
7. Point-and-shoot camera sales fell 22% between 2018 and 2019.
8. Mirrorless camera sales increased 2% from 2018 to 2019.
9. The average DSLR camera costs just over $700.
10. A typical mirrorless camera costs more than $850.
11. The Sharp J-SH04 was the first phone to include a digital camera and launched in 2000.
12. By 2003, sales of feature phones were higher than those of compact cameras.
13. 61% of people use the camera on their smartphone every day.

My take away is that more people use their phone's camera then spending an additional 700 - to 850 dollars. and while still a huge market, its shrinking

 

[The point and shoot pro]

I'm not disagreeing but stand alone cameras are an endangered species. There will always be cameras for professionals, and prosumers but that's where it stops.

Back a few years ago, you would go to disneyworld and every father, husband, boyfriend would be lugging around a DSLR with ginormous lenses. Now? I see more people using iPads instead of cameras (never mind phones, lol)

13 Digital Camera Sales and Statistics – Updated In 2023


My take away is that more people use their phone's camera then spending an additional 700 - to 850 dollars. and while still a huge market, its shrinking

That's exactly my point. for instabook, phones are great. For real photographers etc, NOPE. Not even close.

Check that video out. Even with samsungs "magical" AI trickery where when you take a photo of the moon, it's not really a photo of the moon, the P1000 camera just destroys it. And thats just a point and shoot camera.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

Or this one.

The background distortion is horrid on these bird shots...I am using the s23 ultra as an example as it is the best camera in a phone right now.

 

[maflynn]

For real photographers etc

Many real photographers can and do use iPhones (non-professionals i mean)

 

[The point and shoot pro]

Many real photographers can and do use iPhones (non-professionals i mean)

By real photographers I mean professionals. Anyone else is just a person who takes photos. non income producing.