Flip Flopping between macOS and Windows

[maflynn]

Apple will FORCE them to upgrade. That's what apple does. Cut software support quickly. "Your" M1 macbook will be a paperweight in 6 years from when they were announced.

Apple's policy is that vintage hardware is considered older then 4 years and less then 7. Obsolete is 7 years and beyond. I don't see that policy forcing people to upgrade, and it allows a higher degree of stability and keeping support issues to a minimum.

I have a 2012 MBP, that still works, I stopped upgrading the OS well before the support was cut off, simply because its fast and stable. I can run all of the software that I need and there's no issues, other then dealing with the performance of a 11 year old computer

YMMV. Getting it running on unsupported devices is very different than apple supporting them.

Generally I'm of the mind that I'll be better off using an older version instead forcing the newer one - that's just me.

Microsoft HAD to do this time

Microsoft should take a page from Apple and be a bit more aggressive - just my $.02

 

[LeeW]

Yep. exactly. I just think that apple are very heavy handed with their "upgrade" schedule.

True but it comes back to trade-offs. Not that I am defending Apple but I understand it.

On one hand, Windows does not support anything really that specific other than a device with an Intel or AMD CPU, whatever is built around that really doesn't matter, knock yourself out in terms of a PC/Laptop. Windows 10 could probably run albeit very badly on a 15-year-old desktop/laptop. But that is part of its problem, Windows is trying to support too much from the past whilst trying to stay on top of the future, doesn't work all that well and hinders progress.

On the other hand, Apple build and controls everything in the end-to-end process. Hardware and software across a very specific and small range of devices that are built to integrate very closely with each other and that comes at a cost. As all that different hardware develops further, you can't just keep supporting the old hardware for as long or hinder progress.

If anything I believe Microsoft should be more like Apple, but that's another debate.

 

[maflynn]

On the other hand, Apple build and controls everything in the end-to-end process. Hardware and software across a very specific and small range of devices that are built to integrate very closely

That is one of the major advantages Apple has over its competitors.

 

[transmaster]

This makes me smile. One of the very reasons why macOS works as well as it does is because Apple is not doing legacy support. One of the jokes I have about Windows is 1000 years from now a digital archaeologist will make headlines when that person excavating into the ancient code horisions of Windows Odin 431 finds an actual line of code written over a 1000 years ago by the heretofore mystical Bill Gates proving he really existed.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Yeah it's just weird how...homogenized it feels at this point, though. It feels like they will never change the look again at this point of any of it. iOS is how it will be forever, iPadOS same thing. MacOS if anything will end up even more like iOS and less like the 'nix upon which it is based.

I mean it runs so well but its just so locked down and the same every day for all time.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

As I said, NEEDING to buy a $5000.00 computer every 4 or 5 years to have the current OS and apps that work is ridiculous. For what I am doing I need a higher spec'ed model. and to toss it every 5 years even is beyond silly, wasteful etc. It's just nuts.

 

[LeeW]

It feels like they will never change the look again at this point of any of it. OS is how it will be forever, iPadOS same thing. MacOS if anything will end up even more like iOS and less like the 'nix upon which it is based.

That is what the everyday Apple consumer wants. Who represents Apple's biggest customer segment? The everyday Apple consumer, not professionals or business users. So that's who they listen to, for the most part.

If I want to find out more about my WiFi settings, how do I do it? Look for the grey square that looks like a cog called settings and there is an option in there called WiFi. My point? Whether I am using a Mac, iPad, iPhone, Apple Watch, Apple TV or even the upcoming Vision Pro, so much is the same. If I know how to do something on one device, I already know how to do it on the next one no matter how different a product it is from the one I already have.

That is why it will never change. Or at least, change will be slow because it means changing everything.

The Eco-System, the Walled Garden! The regular quotes of those who will never use Apple because of it are the reasons the masses prefer it. That predictable similarity and interconnectivity across everything.

Perfect? Far from it. I have accepted it. There is much I don't like but even if I went to a Windows/Android setup I would miss too much of what Apple does that they get right.

 

[maflynn]

As I said, NEEDING to buy a $5000.00 computer every 4 or 5 years to have the current OS and apps that work is ridiculous.

I think you're over exaggerating the situation, most people are not spending $5,000 dollars for a mac. Most macs and configurations (while still expensive) are not 5,000 dollars.

The cutoff for Sonoma is 2018 for most macs - that's 6 years (not 4 years). Last year's Catalina's cutoff was 2012 (and 2015 depending on the model) - a far cry from 4 or 5 year old macs.

I don't believe their is a need business, or consumer level that requires the Mac owner to upgrade annually. I work in IT, supporting servers, workstations and to a lesser extent Macs. I don't know any scenario where there is a need to upgrade the OS every 12 months. There are plenty of people that want too, but there is no requirement.

Most applications, even major upgrades typically are backward compatible, so basically I'm not seeing that a consumer, prosumer or professional HAS to upgrade every 4 to 5 years nor will they be spending 5,000.

Edited for clarity

 

[The point and shoot pro]

I think you're over exaggerating the situation, most people are not spending $5,000 dollars for a mac. Most macs and configurations (while still expensive) are not 5,000 dollars.

The cutoff for Sonoma is 2018 for most macs - that's 6 years (not 4 years). Last year's Catalina's cutoff was 2012 (and 2015 depending on the model) - a far cry from 4 or 5 year old macs.

I don't believe their is a need business, or consumer level that requires the Mac owner to upgrade annually. I work in IT, supporting servers, workstations and to a lesser extent Macs. I don't know any scenario where there is a need to upgrade the OS every 12 months. There are plenty of people that want too, but there is no requirement.

Most applications, even major upgrades typically are backward compatible, so basically I'm not seeing that a consumer, prosumer or professional HAS to upgrade every 4 to 5 years.

As I said, I am going by my previous experience with my last macbook. it was a 2007 and in 2012 it was useless. Chrome didn't work, safari didn't work. Apple refused to let me download aperture which I paid 500 bucks for in 2009 IRC, and basically the system was a paperweight. I am not willing to have that happen again. Plus, I want the features of whatever OS level updates are available and I should have access to them until I want to get a new system, again, not when Apple forces me to.

 

[maflynn]

it was a 2007 and in 2012 it was useless.

As I said, my 2012 MBP still works, all of the apps available. I stopped upgrading to the OS, because the newer OS's were making the laptop slower and the new features didn't interest me. For such an old computer its surprisingly spry and peppy. I don't use it, because my current MBP replaced it, but my kids were using it as far back as 2020 and 2021. Nearly 10 years worth of usage.

As I said, I am going by my previous experience with my last macbook. it was a 2007 and in 2012 it was useless.

I think the point is you're using a single data point and coming to a conclusion that if you had that issue, then everyone will.

I am not willing to have that happen again

That's fine, its your money and your life. You need to make the best decision for your unique situation.

Plus, I want the features of whatever OS level updates are available and I should have access to them until I want to get a new system, again

Again that's fine, but there's a difference between you stating we are being forced to upgrade and you wanting to upgrade

I think there's a body of work to show that Macs can and do last well beyond 5 years and apple isn't forcing us to upgrade and/or buy new systems and most Macs certainly don't cost 5,000 dollars.

 

[LeeW]

I want the features of whatever OS level updates are available and I should have access to them until I want to get a new system, again, not when Apple forces me to.

I get it and don't necessarily disagree, well I do, for the reasons already stated previously. You need Windows, which is going to meet your needs, not macOS. Nothing is going to change anytime soon (years).

I am not willing to have that happen again.

And that is the right approach for you. All of the regular posters in this thread are well aware of the Good, Bad and Ugly of all OS's and devices. Everyone has chosen a path that suits them.

We all want something different/better from Apple. I want Microsoft to split Windows into a true home & Corporate version that focuses on the markets each is designed for. I am going to get nothing from either of them

 

[Cape Dave]

I think you're over exaggerating the situation, most people are not spending $5,000 dollars for a mac. Most macs and configurations (while still expensive) are not 5,000 dollars.

The cutoff for Sonoma is 2018 for most macs - that's 6 years (not 4 years). Last year's Catalina's cutoff was 2012 (and 2015 depending on the model) - a far cry from 4 or 5 year old macs.

I don't believe their is a need business, or consumer level that requires the Mac owner to upgrade annually. I work in IT, supporting servers, workstations and to a lesser extent Macs. I don't know any scenario where there is a need to upgrade the OS every 12 months. There are plenty of people that want too, but there is no requirement.

Most applications, even major upgrades typically are backward compatible, so basically I'm not seeing that a consumer, prosumer or professional HAS to upgrade every 4 to 5 years nor will they be spending 5,000.

Edited for clarity

But maybe a UI refresh once in awhile? If they had, I could be using MacOS, not Windows. Windows looks more modern and has better UI.

 

[LeeW]

Windows looks more modern and has better UI.

I agree with that. The more I have used 11 the more I like it. Just seems to flow quite well now.

 

[maflynn]

But maybe a UI refresh once in awhile?

No question, and I do feel the UI and UX is a bit dated. I absolutely hate what apple did with the systems settings in Catalina. They changed what worked well and made it an inconsistent hard to use app

Windows looks more modern and has better UI.

Not for nothing, MS is horribly inconsistent. I mean just look at the windows 3.1 dialog box that still exists in Windows 11.

O

 

[Cape Dave]

I agree with that. The more I have used 11 the more I like it. Just seems to flow quite well now.

FYI I always use Start11 to get the UI I prefer That way I get a Windows 7 style menu which I think is the best that ever was

 

[Cape Dave]

No question, and I do feel the UI and UX is a bit dated. I absolutely hate what apple did with the systems settings in Catalina. They changed what worked well and made it an inconsistent hard to use app


Not for nothing, MS is horribly inconsistent. I mean just look at the windows 3.1 dialog box that still exists in Windows 11.
View attachment 2216017
O

For sure. But 99.998% of users will never go there DOS FTW

 

[maflynn]

FYI I always use Start11 to get the UI I prefer

I use Start11 and highly recommend it

For sure. But 99.998% of users will never go there

Agreed, its but one example of MS being incredibly inconsistent. Take the use of the Settings app, vs. the control panel. Why have both?

 

[LeeW]

Not for nothing, MS is horribly inconsistent. I mean just look at the windows 3.1 dialog box that still exists in Windows 11.

Yes, there are inconsistencies that make no sense other than laziness. That is why I want them to create a whole new version of Windows for Home, drop 32bit etc and actually build something that could also go the way of Apple (ARM).

 

[eltoslightfoot]

It really does feel like a race to the bottom with both OSes. However, I still like the way windows deals with fonts and has more freedom at this point.

I really still am surprised at how little I miss MacOS. Windows feels like it allows you to change more...I mean even look at Start11 as a concept. Mac wouldn't allow that kind of program to really work well or exist at all.

 

[maflynn]

Start11 as a concept. Mac wouldn't allow that kind of program to really work well or exist at all.

This is one of the reasons why Windows is so much better then macOS. You as the owner can change/customize as little or as much of the experience as you want too.

I remember way back in the day, (I mean like OSX 10.2 or something), there was a customization cottage industry burgeoning for macOS. I mean the whole 9 yards, theming, new icons, etc. Apple shut that down by making changes to the OS and basically killed the idea that users can modify/customize the look and feel of OSX.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

This is one of the reasons why Windows is so much better then macOS. You as the owner can change/customize as little or as much of the experience as you want too.

I remember way back in the day, (I mean like OSX 10.2 or something), there was a customization cottage industry burgeoning for macOS. I mean the whole 9 yards, theming, new icons, etc. Apple shut that down by making changes to the OS and basically killed the idea that users can modify/customize the look and feel of OSX.

OH YES! I loved those days! I can't even remember the names of most of the products, but they were equivalents to Rainmeter for Mac and things of that nature. It was so open and fun back then.

Edited to add: I mean now Mac has to have a bizarre workaround from terminal to have a dark mode dock with light mode desktop.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

As I said, my 2012 MBP still works, all of the apps available. I stopped upgrading to the OS, because the newer OS's were making the laptop slower and the new features didn't interest me. For such an old computer its surprisingly spry and peppy. I don't use it, because my current MBP replaced it, but my kids were using it as far back as 2020 and 2021. Nearly 10 years worth of usage.


I think the point is you're using a single data point and coming to a conclusion that if you had that issue, then everyone will.


That's fine, its your money and your life. You need to make the best decision for your unique situation.

Again that's fine, but there's a difference between you stating we are being forced to upgrade and you wanting to upgrade

I think there's a body of work to show that Macs can and do last well beyond 5 years and apple isn't forcing us to upgrade and/or buy new systems and most Macs certainly don't cost 5,000 dollars.

I am glad that, that's not the case anymore. I was disgusted that in such a short period of time that the machine was rendered useless to even get on the internet without major fooling around. If I could get 8 to 10 years of using my system I would be very happy. The other thing that ticked me off was the purchase of aperture via download for 499. then Just gone. no way to get it.

I do wish they made the pro in other colors than silver and gray. I would LOVE a midnight pro.

I am staying where I am too for now. But knowing that apple does not render systems just paperweights after their extremely short full support periods is a better understanding for me.

 

[The point and shoot pro]

I use Start11 and highly recommend it

Agreed, its but one example of MS being incredibly inconsistent. Take the use of the Settings app, vs. the control panel. Why have both?

How resource hungry is start 11 and windows blinds now?

 

[maflynn]

How resource hungry is start 11 and windows blinds now?

I don't even notice it running. I don't use window blinds. I have the Object Desktop suite, so I can install any and all apps from Stardock but I only use Start 11 and Fences (allows me a higher degree of organization for my desktop).

 

[keithop]

The other thing that ticked me off was the purchase of aperture via download for 499. then Just gone. no way to get it.

yeah I was SO pleased when apple came out with aperture and actually asked photographers what we wanted. It was great and I liked it SO much more than adobe stuff. Then bang. Gone.

I do wish they made the pro in other colors than silver and gray. I would LOVE a midnight pro.

me too!