For Those Not Upgrading, What Could Apple Have Done to Convince You?

[moosington]

I am completely baffled by the number of people complaining about the bigger force track pad. This is probably the most enjoyable part of the laptop to use for me.

Need to drag something really far? It's twice as wide now! Hand get tired clicking so much? Make the clicks take less resistance! Need to click something? Use anywhere in the track pad!

 

[jerryk]

I am completely baffled by the number of people complaining about the bigger force track pad. This is probably the most enjoyable part of the laptop to use for me.

Need to drag something really far? It's twice as wide now! Hand get tired clicking so much? Make the clicks take less resistance! Need to click something? Use anywhere in the track pad!

Not sure if you came from a 2015 rMBP, but the 2015 had a force track pad at the same size of the other rMBP trackpads.

Most of the complaints are not about the force track mechanism, but rather the size, and issues with palm rejection and other methods that are failing to prevent inadvertent clicks or cursor position changes when you rest your palms on the trackpad.

 

[Uofmtiger]

I ordered one, then cancelled it. It seemed to expensive for what you get. However, I got one as a gift and I couldn't be much happier. It "replaced" a 2011 MBP, so I was happy to get the better screen, much faster SSD (even though I upgraded my old MBP to SSD) and I actually like the fact that it is lighter and has a smaller footprint. I would not have wanted a computer without thunderbolt 3 because it will eventually be the thing that makes it more future-resistant than a computer without it.

That being said, I still think it is priced too high...at least for me. I was going to try to get by with my 2011 for a while and then look for one on the refurb market if I hadn't got this one as a gift.

I should note that I do not directly use the MBP for my profession. I have a computer at a desk in an office that a company supplies and the only way I use my home computer for work is by accessing my work computer over the web. I do use it for Photoshop and I just bought Final Cut, but I don't think I will have to worry about RAM for a long, long time.

 

[therealseebs]

They could have made a machine with an antiglare high-res non-retina display (or a retina display where the integer scaling resolution included something I liked, I dislike the fuzzy scaling resolutions), with a full keyboard, with magsafe, with more traditional USB ports, and ideally with firewire and ethernet, with replaceable/upgradeable memory and storage, capable of using 32GB of RAM, and using an industry-standard SSD interface so there would be real options for SSD upgrades. In short, they could have made a machine which would be more like what I expect from a Macbook Pro, and less like what I expect from a double-price Macbook Air.

 

[Sanpete]

In short, they could have made a machine which would be more like what I expect from a Macbook Pro, and less like what I expect from a double-price Macbook Air.

Yeah, a 2011 MBP, apart from the 32 GB RAM. What you describe would weigh twice as much as an MBA, be more than twice the price, and be quite a bit larger than any current MBP. A very niche market indeed.

 

[CaptRB]

I am completely baffled by the number of people complaining about the bigger force track pad. This is probably the most enjoyable part of the laptop to use for me.

Need to drag something really far? It's twice as wide now! Hand get tired clicking so much? Make the clicks take less resistance! Need to click something? Use anywhere in the track pad!

You have to get used to it, but once you do...what a huge advantage the bigger pad is.


R.

 

[wct097]

I was intending to replace my 2012 rMBP when Skylake came out. Was very eager, until I saw the specs, price, USB-C only, and no magsafe or SD.

Knowing that Apple will never backtrack to Magsafe and a USB-A slot on this computer (and admit Jony Ive went too far), I'm not sure that I'll ever own another Apple laptop. I don't see USB-C as a viable all-around interface. That alone destroys the real-world usability of the machine and that alone will prevent me from buying a new MBP for the foreseeable future. Carrying around dongles is a non-starter.

 

[peraspera]

The option to eliminate the touch bar from a top spec 15". Something that requires me to take my eyes away from my work is a workflow hindrance, not a help for me. It is also a potential point of failure for something I don't want in the first place. No amount of future programming will change these facts.

No reduction in battery size. Having a last minute test failure with a shaped battery speaks volumes about how little effort Apple put into this model. Lithium ion batteries are ancient technology in tech time with their requirements for safe design and operation being well understand for years.

Quiet keyboard. It is obnoxiously rude to use a noisy keyboard in quiet environments where others are present. This is not acceptable behavior for a portable computer keyboard that can be reasonably expected to be used where electronic gadget silence is golden.

At least one standard USB port. USB-C devices, dongles and adapter cables are potential points of failure and have been on the market too short of a time to clearly establish the reliability and performance of such third party products. Apple doesn't seem to be selling all the types of devices and adapters that people are needing. Having a known reliable fallback port simplifies life if a USB-C connection misbehaves.

Apple branded USB-C hub(s). If Apple wants to shove me into the less than tried and true USB-C world it ought to be considerate enough to be help me get there as painlessly as possible.

Offered MagSafe or functional equialent. It is reasonable to expect that a portable computer may need to be connected for charging in circumstances where it isn't possible to do a safe placement of the power cord.

Better quality control. Catching things like cosmetic blemishes and mushy keys before shipment is dead simple and dirt cheap. Not doing so with some hapless customers forced to make repeated returns to get computers free of such defects speaks volumes about how little effort and care Apple put into QC in general. Apple's failure to always cross ship with a credit card hold to victims who have received a defective replacement the first time is not my idea of decent customer service.

Beta tested - I don't see much evidence that that the 2016s were tested in any sort of systematic way that gives me confidence.

I would appreciate the better screen, performance bump and cooler operation but the benefit to potential aggravation ratio is far too unfavorable for me to even seriously consider replacing my maxed out late 2015 15" with a 2016 model.

 

[Sanpete]

I don't see USB-C as a viable all-around interface.

It's by far the most powerful and flexible port available. The emotional reactions to it don't have to do with that, though.
[doublepost=1485920092][/doublepost]Brrrr! There's a chill wind here!

No amount of future programming will change these facts.

Hmmm.

Having a last minute test failure with a shaped battery speaks volumes about how little effort Apple put into this model.

How so? New technology doesn't always work as anticipated, no matter how much effort goes into it. That they tried speaks well for their plans, at least.

The keyboard can be quiet, you know, if you're worried about being rude. Depends entirely on how hard you hit the keys.

Haven't had any failures with my tiny USB-A to USB-C adapters, but I suppose they could fail. In theory. And I could be affected by quality control issues. But I haven't been, so there's that. It appears most people haven't been.

There has always been pain associated with adopting new technology and leaving the old behind. The outcries at every change are a constant. I personally miss the optical drive.

I doubt many people will have a good enough reason to replace the 2015 yet. It's still young!

 

[CaptRB]

It's by far the most powerful and flexible port available. The emotional reactions to it don't have to do with that, though.
[doublepost=1485920092][/doublepost]Brrrr! There's a chill wind here!



Hmmm.



How so? New technology doesn't always work as anticipated, no matter how much effort goes into it. That they tried speaks well for their plans, at least.

The keyboard can be quiet, you know, if you're worried about being rude. Depends entirely on how hard you hit the keys.

Haven't had any failures with my tiny USB-A to USB-C adapters, but I suppose they could fail. In theory. And I could be affected by quality control issues. But I haven't been, so there's that. It appears most people haven't been.

There has always been pain associated with adopting new technology and leaving the old behind. The outcries at every change are a constant. I personally miss the optical drive.

I doubt many people will have a good enough reason to replace the 2015 yet. It's still young!

I have to say that the emotion about the USB-C ports in hilarious! The ports are wonderful and do more and a dongle or two doesn't exactly ruin anyone's day.


R.

 

[therealseebs]

Yeah, a 2011 MBP, apart from the 32 GB RAM. What you describe would weigh twice as much as an MBA, be more than twice the price, and be quite a bit larger than any current MBP. A very niche market indeed.

Well, that's the thing. I *got* exactly the machine I wanted, except for not running MacOS (and not having MagSafe). It is, indeed, twice as heavy as the MBP... But a bit over 30% cheaper. ($2,199 instead of $3,599.) Antiglare screen, usable resolution, 32GB DDR4 upgradeable to 64GB, NVME and SATA drive bays so I can have two SSDs which are user-replaceable. Multibutton pointer, too. Like, three distinct physical buttons which are a lot more responsive for me than the touchpad was.

The idea that this machine would "be more than twice the price" is incoherent. It's not even hypothetical; it's out there on the market being easy to come by.

 

[Eason85]

I have tried to type quietly on the MBP, but I can't. If I type at half my speed (50 wpm), maybe yes. But it's very aggravating once noticed.

 

[Sanpete]

Well, that's the thing. I *got* exactly the machine I wanted, except for not running MacOS (and not having MagSafe). It is, indeed, twice as heavy as the MBP... But a bit over 30% cheaper. ($2,199 instead of $3,599.) Antiglare screen, usable resolution, 32GB DDR4 upgradeable to 64GB, NVME and SATA drive bays so I can have two SSDs which are user-replaceable. Multibutton pointer, too. Like, three distinct physical buttons which are a lot more responsive for me than the touchpad was.

The idea that this machine would "be more than twice the price" is incoherent. It's not even hypothetical; it's out there on the market being easy to come by.

Eek! Your machine, whatever it is (some kind of Dell Precision, I suppose), is in fact twice the price of the MBA (not the MBP). If it were made to Apple's build standards, it would be more than twice as much, as I said. And it's even heavier than I imagined, if it's twice as heavy as the MBP (again I was talking about the MBA, which you brought up).

I'm sure it's great for its intended purpose, but it's not a competitor to the MBP, it's a different class of machine, a sort of semi-mobile desktop, except for the oddly retro screen. I'll bet it has quite a roar when you really fire it up!
[doublepost=1485932708][/doublepost]

I have tried to type quietly on the MBP, but I can't. If I type at half my speed (50 wpm), maybe yes. But it's very aggravating once noticed.

Yeah, I suppose if you're not used to typing with a light touch it might slow you down to type that way. It doesn't seem to affect my speed, but I'm not real fast anyway.

 

[Naimfan]

Well, that's the thing. I *got* exactly the machine I wanted, except for not running MacOS (and not having MagSafe). It is, indeed, twice as heavy as the MBP... But a bit over 30% cheaper. ($2,199 instead of $3,599.) Antiglare screen, usable resolution, 32GB DDR4 upgradeable to 64GB, NVME and SATA drive bays so I can have two SSDs which are user-replaceable. Multibutton pointer, too. Like, three distinct physical buttons which are a lot more responsive for me than the touchpad was.

The idea that this machine would "be more than twice the price" is incoherent. It's not even hypothetical; it's out there on the market being easy to come by.

Would you PLEASE stop confusing the fanbois issues with actual facts? Heads will explode!

 

[Sanpete]

Would you PLEASE stop confusing the fanbois issues with actual facts? Heads will explode!

Ha, keep reading and learn. No heads exploded, only some shock at the heft of the behemoth he described! More portable than an iMac, though.

 

[CaptRB]

You get what you pay for. I know I did.



R.

 

[peraspera]

How so? New technology doesn't always work as anticipated, no matter how much effort goes into it. That they tried speaks well for their plans, at least.

There is nothing the least little bit new about lithium ion battery safety. A last minute safety fail implies incompetence or lack of even minimal attention and planning. Apple has never been a comfy, long lasting home for incompetent engineers so I'm chalking this fail up to the executive suite.

The keyboard can be quiet, you know, if you're worried about being rude. Depends entirely on how hard you hit the keys.

Putting a noisy keyboard on a portable computer is a fundamental poor, ill-considered design decision. No one should be forced to "whisper type" on a device that is frequently and commonly used where noisy keyboards would be justifiably unwelcome.

Haven't had any failures with my tiny USB-A to USB-C adapters, but I suppose they could fail.

How fortunate for you personally. However, Apple has sent its customers into the USB-C wild west. if Apple branded cables and adapters are not available for what they need. Benson Leung, a Google engineer, has offered some helpful Amazon USB-C reviews.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/a...BRJGH2RRD4VGMB47ZA?ie=UTF8&ref_=cm_cr_rdp_pdp

Life could get unpleasantly interesting if trustworthy information is not available for the specific cable or adapter one might need.
http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/how-to-find-safe-usb-type-c-cables

In theory. And I could be affected by quality control issues. But I haven't been, so there's that. It appears most people haven't been.

I wouldn't know what the experience of "most people" has been as that data is not publicly available. I've lost track of the issues that have been posted that put flags on the field for me in terms of quality control and beta testing. While one can't fairly expect even close to everything to get caught I see issues posted where I don't see a reasonable explanation for them slipping through the cracks.

There has always been pain associated with adopting new technology and leaving the old behind. The outcries at every change are a constant. I personally miss the optical drive.

Losing tape drives, floppies, optical drives and ADB were all painless processes for me. I was more than happy to see each one bite the dust and move on as I could easily find high quality, reliable devices to gracefully handle the transition period. This is not currently the case for the still immature USB-C.

 

[Sanpete]

There is nothing the least little bit new about lithium ion battery safety. A last minute safety fail implies incompetence or lack of even minimal attention and planning. Apple has never been a comfy, long lasting home for incompetent engineers so I'm chalking this fail up to the executive suite.

Your premises aren't true, though. There are always new things in Li-Ion battery technology, including in this case the terraced design.

I agree it would be better if the keyboard were quieter when people type as they normally do. I do, however, like the keyboard very much and personally don't have any trouble with it being too loud. If they can make it quieter while preserving the qualities I and others like, I hope they will. (I don't know if that can be done.)

What particular problems do the USB-C ports present for you? What devices are you unable to conveniently use?

You can get a good idea what portion of users are having a problem by reading a forum like this one, keeping in mind that problems are overrepresented due to Google and the penchant to focus on problems. If most owners of the new MBPs were having significant quality control issues that would be evident from the polls and the number who post about it relative to the number of owners who post here in general.

 

[Uofmtiger]

Losing tape drives, floppies, optical drives and ADB were all painless processes for me. I was more than happy to see each one bite the dust and move on as I could easily find high quality, reliable devices to gracefully handle the transition period. This is not currently the case for the still immature USB-C.

Not me. The removal of the optical drive was one of the reasons I held off updating my laptop. I wasn't ready when Apple took it away. Carrying around a USB DVD player was much more cumbersome and likely to break than an adapter or different cable. I eventually pulled the Optical Disc out of that MBP and replaced it with SSD when I was ready (after leaning more heavily on streaming), however, that took over a year after Apple dropped it.

On the other hand, I have no problem finding adapters for what I need with USB-C and they aren't nearly as cumbersome as carrying around an external drive.

 

[BarracksSi]

(I may have said this in this thread earlier)

If you want an Apple-made USB-C hub, what should it do?

Which video outputs should it include?

Which networking ports? Just Ethernet?

How many different memory card sizes should it accommodate?

Should it somehow do FW800 for people who still have FW800 devices?

How many Thunderbolt ports?

How many USB-A?

How many other owners want the same combination of ports that you do?

 

[therealseebs]

Eek! Your machine, whatever it is (some kind of Dell Precision, I suppose), is in fact twice the price of the MBA (not the MBP). If it were made to Apple's build standards, it would be more than twice as much, as I said.

Your claim was just that the machine I described would cost "more than twice as much". But let's say we just look at the claim "if made to Apple's build standards, it would cost more than twice as much". What's your evidence for this, exactly? We have zero evidence as to how much Apple's "build standards" cost, because we have no way of separating Apple's build standards from Apple's profit margins. Having taken both machines apart, I don't think the Dell has worse "build quality". I like it better, overall.

And it's even heavier than I imagined, if it's twice as heavy as the MBP (again I was talking about the MBA, which you brought up).

I brought up the MBA because the 2016 MBP is basically a slightly higher-end MBA, from my point of view.

I'm sure it's great for its intended purpose, but it's not a competitor to the MBP, it's a different class of machine, a sort of semi-mobile desktop, except for the oddly retro screen.

The screen may be "oddly retro" to you, but to me, it's usable. And they have options for 4k screens and such, but I don't actually want pixels that small usually.

And it's true: The MBP isn't a competitor in this market anymore. This is exactly the point I was making: What Apple could have done to convince me was to have an entry in the "bigger but more powerful and flexible" category.

I'll bet it has quite a roar when you really fire it up!

Under full load, it is comparable in volume but less annoying. Surprising? It sure seems surprising until you think about what makes fan noise. Compare an 80mm fan to a 120mm fan moving the same amount of air. Note how the 120mm fan is quieter. The Dell has larger heat sinks and much bigger openings for airflow, so the air moves quite a bit more slowly. Every MBP I've owned (probably five or six so far) has made an annoying high-pitched noise under heavy load. The Dell makes more of a dull whoosh. I haven't checked with a decibel meter, but I don't care; I can use the Dell under heavy load. If I had to run the Mac under enough load to get the fans up towards full speed, I also had to leave the room and let it run.

 

[Sanpete]

Your claim was just that the machine I described would cost "more than twice as much". But let's say we just look at the claim "if made to Apple's build standards, it would cost more than twice as much". What's your evidence for this, exactly? We have zero evidence as to how much Apple's "build standards" cost, because we have no way of separating Apple's build standards from Apple's profit margins. Having taken both machines apart, I don't think the Dell has worse "build quality". I like it better, overall.

The evidence is the testimony of reviewers who compare Macs and Dells. And a lot of Mac and Dell owners.

I brought up the MBA because the 2016 MBP is basically a slightly higher-end MBA, from my point of view.

Which only makes you look silly, of course.

I don't know of anyone but you who has trouble using higher-resolution screens, at least in Mac OS.

Again, the Precision you have simply isn't a competitor in the market the MBP is in. It's for a niche market of people who don't care about weight. The XPS, on the other hand, is competitive in the same market as the MBP.

Under full load, it is comparable in volume but less annoying. Surprising? It sure seems surprising until you think about what makes fan noise. Compare an 80mm fan to a 120mm fan moving the same amount of air. Note how the 120mm fan is quieter. The Dell has larger heat sinks and much bigger openings for airflow, so the air moves quite a bit more slowly. Every MBP I've owned (probably five or six so far) has made an annoying high-pitched noise under heavy load. The Dell makes more of a dull whoosh. I haven't checked with a decibel meter, but I don't care; I can use the Dell under heavy load. If I had to run the Mac under enough load to get the fans up towards full speed, I also had to leave the room and let it run.

Objective measurements and what other owners report don't support any of this. The Dell is generally louder and has a similar peak in sound at a similar frequency. See the Emissions sections near the end of each review:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Dell-Precision-7710-Workstation-Review.158505.0.html
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-Late-2016-2-6-GHz-i7-Notebook-Review.185254.0.html

 

[Appleaker]

It sounds like you could be interested in this years model. Although the display resolution change will not happen for a very long time.

 

[SparkFlash]

For me its all price. The touchbar seems cool, but not at the price point.

 

[peraspera]

Your premises aren't true, though. There are always new things in Li-Ion battery technology, including in this case the terraced design.

A differently shaped battery pack is hardly any sort of significant tech advancement. Lithium ion battery packs have come in different shapes and sizes for years. The requirements for the safe operation of lithium ion batteries and packs have also been well understood for years. There is no good excuse whatsoever for a last minute battery safety fail, particularly given the considerable length of time Apple had to plan and test.

I agree it would be better if the keyboard were quieter when people type as they normally do. I do, however, like the keyboard very much and personally don't have any trouble with it being too loud. If they can make it quieter while preserving the qualities I and others like, I hope they will. (I don't know if that can be done.)

The fact that some people don't mind a noisy keyboard in no way makes it less of a bad, thoughtless design decision. The key whine and failing keys some are experiencing adds insult to injury. Again, there really isn't any good excuse for this.

What particular problems do the USB-C ports present for you? What devices are you unable to conveniently use?

I would want a certified multi-port dock and a replacement for MagSafe. The selection of Apple branded USB-C and even highly reputable third party USB-C cables, adapters and docks is quite sparse. The current state of the USB-C marketplace can be charitably described as a sewer that I would prefer to avoid.

You can get a good idea what portion of users are having a problem by reading a forum like this one, keeping in mind that problems are overrepresented due to Google and the penchant to focus on problems. If most owners of the new MBPs were having significant quality control issues that would be evident from the polls and the number who post about it relative to the number of owners who post here in general.

I've always found that trying to extrapolate hard numbers from forum posts to be an exercise in silliness. I tend to pay more attention to what types of issues are generally reported frequently and what types of issues they are. My perception is that Apple phoned the planning and QC for this model in.