Ford,GM,Chrysler

[iGav]

If Honda can build a Civic that looks great and gets 30 - 40 mpg with no gimmicks why cant GM/Ford?

You do realise that you can buy a 2006 Ford Focus TDi that nails 58.9 MPG. And you can buy petrol ones that nail 44.2 mpg.

My question would be... why can't Honda make a car that is dynamic to drive AND get 40-60 MPG? just think every gallon of gas can take you another 20 miles down the road.

I know of no evidence that American auto workers are more inept than in the rest of the world. Besides,

There's a lot of evidence and the majority of the faults on the Focus are unique to the U.S. version not the European model. It's well documented on the web.

Honda and Toyota build many cars here that don't have the quality issues the Big 3 have had.

Toyota do. Boy do Toyota have issues. They've just recently recalled 250,000 vehicles, on top of the 1.4 million that they had to recall a couple of months prior.

That said, I don't think that's necessarily indicative of the U.S. work force, Japanese companies are famed (and rightly so) for their efficiency and their U.S. plants will likely run close to Japanese levels of efficiency. Nissan and Honda both have plants in the UK, yet anyone who know's anything about the UK motor industry will tell that it's not famed for it's quality. heh.

There really is something to that.

Until there is a fundamental shift in the U.S. populations attitude in general (there are always exceptions, thankfully) then the big 3 won't change.

As you say, Americans generally are not interested in smaller cars... and there lies a large portion of the problem. Where's the incentive for the big 3 to actually start producing economical cars? Ford have those models available now, in Europe that rival and best the Japanese offerings... but the question is... if Ford shipped them over in the tanker load, would the American public buy them?

Do they sell the Focus ST over there? because that beauty is a really nice car. Volvo 5 Cylinder 2.2ltr Engine with Turbo Charger doing 222bhp and it handles really nicely (Aparantly).

When I was at my mum's for Christmas, literally just around the corner is a Ford dealership, I was out walking the dog in the morning and a new Focus ST went screaming past, sounded absolutely superb, almost like a lo-tune V8, that good!!!!

By all intents and purposes, it's supposed to be almost as good as a Cayman.

 

[danny_w]

Depends on what people are looking for. I won't argue that Honda and Toyota build cars that are well-engineered and reliable. I've owned each and they've delivered exactly as promised with no problems. But, sheesh, talk about a boring, appliance-like driving experiences!

Bingo! My sentiments exactly! I've had multiple Japanese crs, and yes, they were extremely reliable and got fairly good gas mileage, but Man, were they boring! I'd much rather have a car that gets less mpg but has some kind of character any day of the week. If Honda or Toyota can do that, I'm all for them. I just don't see it happening anytime soon, not in the U.S. at least.

 

[aloofman]

You do realise that you can buy a 2006 Ford Focus TDi that nails 58.9 MPG.

We can't. Emissions laws (especially in California) practically ban the current diesel car engines and fuel. The upcoming next generation should be a major improvement in this area, but I have my doubts that Americans will take to diesel in great numbers. Too much baggage there.

 

[iGav]

We can't. Emissions laws (especially in California) practically ban the current diesel car engines and fuel.

Interesting... I was under the impression that the latest generation of common rails were clean enough to be sold in the U.S.? or is this a California-only thing?

but I have my doubts that Americans will take to diesel in great numbers. Too much baggage there.

Not been clued up on U.S. automotive history... What baggage?

I'd have thought they'd have been quite popular, considering the 'let the torque do the work' approach to driving.

 

[danny_w]

Not been clued up on U.S. automotive history... What baggage?

I don't know all of the history myself, but GM tried to come out with a series of diesel cars in the 80s (I think) and they literally blew themselves apart. GM was stupid enough to try and use standard gasoline engine blocks with diesel heads and pistons, but of course the engine blocks weren't strong enough to withstand the higher compression. Ka-blooie!

 

[iGav]

IGM was stupid enough to try and use standard gasoline engine blocks with diesel heads and pistons,

You're kidding??? hahahahahahahahahahaha

No wonder GM will be bankrupt by the end of the year. *crosses fingers and hopes they take Vauxdull with them* heh.

 

[geese]

You're kidding??? hahahahahahahahahahaha

No wonder GM will be bankrupt by the end of the year. *crosses fingers and hopes they take Vauxdull with them* heh.

Vauxhalls arnt that bad! They are getting a bit more exciting, although they've obviously robbed a page from Ford. Dont forget- Vauxhalls are german designed- they are not that bad.

Although its unforgivable how they have mismanaged Saab though.

 

[iGav]

Vauxhalls arnt that bad! They are getting a bit more exciting, although they've obviously robbed a page from Ford. Dont forget- Vauxhalls are german designed- they are not that bad.

They are... they are. The only 2 notable Vauxdulls of recent times were the VX220 and the Monaro, and the only thing that was vaguely Vauxdull about either of them was the badge on the bonnet.

Agila, Mervia, Zafira, Signum... you'd be hard pressed to think of a range of cars that are as dull as that, even Honda can't top that line up of outright banality.

Poor SAAB though... GM really deserve to be drawn and quartered for what they've done to them.

Anyway... back on the soapbox, I can't believe that Honda have gone back to a torsion beam like... dumbest thing ever. WTF were they thinking? I bet it had to do with the old folk that buy them, you can hear it now...

better not make it too exciting to drive, might give 'em palpitations.

 

[aloofman]

Interesting... I was under the impression that the latest generation of common rails were clean enough to be sold in the U.S.? or is this a California-only thing?

As far as I know, there are no new diesel passenger cars that meet California emissions laws (as opposed to trucks, which use a different standard for shameful reasons). Several other states (mostly in the Northeast) also adopt California's regulations. I think there are a handful of diesel cars that can be sold in the rest of the U.S. (VW Golf TDI, maybe?) But there are low returns for offering it there. Without California and the Northeast, a huge chunk of U.S. market is off-limits, especially for high-mileage cars.

Not been clued up on U.S. automotive history... What baggage?

I'd have thought they'd have been quite popular, considering the 'let the torque do the work' approach to driving.

In the late 1970s-early '80s, the Big Three all tried to push some diesel cars and they did not go over well. Granted, diesels back then were noisy, smelly, and underperforming. The technology just wasn't that great at the time, and many Americans were so pissed about their fling with diesel that they've sworn off it. Obviously diesels aren't like that anymore, but in the U.S. they still have a bad reputation. Thus the baggage.

Also, around the same time GM hit on the idea of having some of a V8's cylinders turn off at cruising speed to save fuel, a concept that was way ahead of its time. But back then they didn't have the precise, computerized ignition and injection control that they have now. GM brought it to market anyway and it was a dismal failure. I remember several years ago when an article came out about several carmakers researching the idea and my dad scoffed at it. Anecdotal evidence looms large in a customer's mind when it caused a bad experience.

 

[vniow]

Also, around the same time GM hit on the idea of having some of a V8's cylinders turn off at cruising speed to save fuel, a concept that was way ahead of its time. But back then they didn't have the precise, computerized ignition and injection control that they have now. GM brought it to market anyway and it was a dismal failure.

Given enough time though, the baggage can go away as proven with the V-8-6-4 concept that you're talking about here. I'm sure you're aware that GM's modern V8s and Chrysler's new Hemis (among a couple others I believe) include that functionality and they seem to do it well and I haven't seen a lot of complaints about it so whatever baggage that tech gained when it was first introduced seems to have disappeared.

Diesels on the other hand are less transparent so perhaps it will take longer for their reputation to change.

 

[takao]

for the ford focus:
the austrian army is at the moment replacing their non-van/non-offroad/non-truck street vehicles (mostly old VW golfs/jettas from the 80ties) completely with Ford Focus TDI Stationwagons (90 HP) and during my 8 months with them i haven't heard of a single problem/recall..
in fact they were the most popular cars and got a lot of praise from everybody.. ignoring the fact that a army colored ford focus is strange at first

afaik the european focus gets produced in germany,spain and russia...

 

[geese]

Anyway... back on the soapbox, I can't believe that Honda have gone back to a torsion beam like... dumbest thing ever. WTF were they thinking? I bet it had to do with the old folk that buy them, you can hear it now...

Fair enough on the vauxhalls then. although i do think the current Vectras have a nice retro touch about them- reminds me of the early 80s/late 70s vauxhalls. And the new Astra looks kinda sharp.

Whats wrong with torsion beam suspension? What is it in fact? Have you seen the new Civic? I doubt many old biddies will be buying it.

Come to think of it, what would the coffin dodger brigade be buying now, seeing as Rovers gone bust?

 

[geese]

In the late 1970s-early '80s, the Big Three all tried to push some diesel cars and they did not go over well. Granted, diesels back then were noisy, smelly, and underperforming. The technology just wasn't that great at the time, and many Americans were so pissed about their fling with diesel that they've sworn off it. Obviously diesels aren't like that anymore, but in the U.S. they still have a bad reputation. Thus the baggage.

A good diesel would change all that- the BMW diesels are really good.

If Skoda can change its image from an eastern european joke comedy car (worse then the Yugo, *much* worse) to a realistic VW alternative, then surely diesels can be marketed to you yanks?

 

[aloofman]

A good diesel would change all that- the BMW diesels are really good.

If Skoda can change its image from an eastern European joke comedy car (worse then the Yugo, *much* worse) to a realistic VW alternative, then surely diesels can be marketed to you yanks?

Like I said, I'm not sure that even modern diesel engines will get Americans' attention. For one thing, diesel gas isn't always cheaper here. At times it's cost significantly more. (No tax incentives for diesels here like in some European countries.) In addition to the bad memories I mentioned above, Americans don't put a high priority on gas mileage because gasoline doesn't cost that much. Despite all the recent whimpering, it's still cheaper now in real terms than in the early '80s oil shock.

I think the price of gasoline will have to go much higher to get Americans into more fuel-efficient cars, including diesels. We could help that along by raising gasoline taxes, but that's a politically unpopular idea, unfortunately.

To be honest, I'm baffled as to why we don't have more turbocharged cars here. The modern turbochargers can be tuned with little lag and make a 4-cylinder feel like a V6. But except as options on small sports cars and higher-end Euro sedans, you really don't see it much here.

 

[aloofman]

Given enough time though, the baggage can go away as proven with the V-8-6-4 concept that you're talking about here. I'm sure you're aware that GM's modern V8s and Chrysler's new Hemis (among a couple others I believe) include that functionality and they seem to do it well and I haven't seen a lot of complaints about it so whatever baggage that tech gained when it was first introduced seems to have disappeared.

Diesels on the other hand are less transparent so perhaps it will take longer for their reputation to change.

I know they're doing it successfully now. It only works because it works transparently, as you said. Ditto with hybrids. If it yielded a troublesome driving experience, no one would like it. It wouldn't bother me at all if diesels made a comeback here, but it has to be on its merits, not because someone else told an American that diesel was the way to go.

I think there's a real opportunity once the new diesel standards come into force in the next few years. If the new engines are clean enough for California and make economic sense, they could get noticed again. But the new diesels will have to markedly better than gasoline engines to make an impact and that remains to be seen.

 

[decksnap]

My interest is peaked in going to Europe and seeing all these souped-up baby-strollers. In the U.S., the Focus is garbage. Pretty much all Fords are garabage. Cheap, cheap, cheap build quality, cheesy interiors, etc, most of them have major issues by the time they hit 70-80k.

I admit that Toyotas are fairly bland, but they are solid cars, and still look better than anything coming out of the big 3.(Don't be fooled by the US carmakers ability to rip off exterior lines- get in one! They're crap!) I don't look at Honda as being bland or having poor performance at all. The high-end accords are actually gorgeous (and 'ummphy') vehicles.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Nissan (drive a Maxima). Loads of power and it's quality from top to bottom. Unfortunately I don't like the direction they're taking their exteriors in the past couple of years, but hey, mine's from 2001.

 

[MacFan782040]

Honda, Toyota, and Nissan will buy out GM, Ford, and Chrysler in the upcoming years.

They won't change the name or anything like that, but basically they will share ideas and pour funding into the companies so they can produce good cars. Then, the Japanese car makers get the money.

At least it'll help out the Economy with jobs...

 

[danny_w]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Nissan (drive a Maxima). Loads of power and it's quality from top to bottom. Unfortunately I don't like the direction they're taking their exteriors in the past couple of years, but hey, mine's from 2001.

I had a '98 Maxima and considered it the blandest car I ever owned, esp. for the price. Sorry Nissan.

 

[aloofman]

Honda, Toyota, and Nissan will buy out GM, Ford, and Chrysler in the upcoming years.

They won't change the name or anything like that, but basically they will share ideas and pour funding into the companies so they can produce good cars. Then, the Japanese car makers get the money.

At least it'll help out the Economy with jobs...

And then you'll wake up. Why would the Japanese buy up lumbering corporate behemoths that are being imploded by huge overhead costs? Charity?

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

And then you'll wake up. Why would the Japanese buy up lumbering corporate behemoths that are being imploded by huge overhead costs? Charity?

I differ with you on this, GM and Ford biggest problem is lack of decent Management. Both have been ran by bean counters for years,decades hence the products they make. They are more interested in the stock price then cars, both more interested in banking rather then making great cars. I feel very sad for the workers getting laid off. The first people that should get kicked out are the managers, designers and corporate pigs.

 

[aloofman]

I differ with you on this, GM and Ford biggest problem is lack of decent Management. Both have been ran by bean counters for years,decades hence the products they make. They are more interested in the stock price then cars, both more interested in banking rather then making great cars. I feel very sad for the workers getting laid off. The first people that should get kicked out are the managers, designers and corporate pigs.

I don't think those are opposing viewpoints. But for the sake of argument, let's say that Toyota bought up GM and replaced all their bad managers, executives and designers, and instilled real quality management in their assembly plants. They'd still be stuck with the pension liabilities that GM is saddled with. Why would Toyota do that?

A far more likely scenario is that the feds step in with a ridiculously costly bailout for the Big Three.

 

[DakotaGuy]

Well I bought a 2005 Explorer this summer and I could not be happier with the purchase. Some of my friends basically called me nuts to support an American company like Ford, but I did it anyways. It seems like even if the domestic auto companies have a good product it is not trendy to buy from them. Almost get labeled as anti-American if you buy domestic anymore. But anyhow on to my story...

I was told to look at a Toyota 4Runner because my friend said it was a way better vehicle then an Explorer. Well I drove one and it was ok, seemed to ride a lot rougher and did not have as much space inside, but it was a nice vehicle. It was not equipped nearly as well as the Explorer and the MSRP on the vehicle was around $34,000. The dealer told me Toyota's never break down and that the 4Runner sells like hotcakes so there was no coming off of MSRP. I bought the Explorer for $9,000 less!!! Nine Thousand Dollars!!! I can not see any reason to buy the 4Runner. I told the Toyota dealer what the Ford dealer would do and he just laughed and said...we don't need your business. It just seems like Toyota has became so arrogant and think they are so above anyone that they can just continue to drive their prices through the ceiling. This is the attitude that will start to kill them.

So are there vehicles that Ford builds TODAY that will compete with Toyota? I think for the price, yeah. Remember whatever stereotypes you have about domestic cars, they don't hold true today. Sure everyone will tell you that a Japanese car will never spend a day of it's life in the shop no matter how hard you pound it, but I bet I could break one. I don't treat a vehicle like that. A big part of reliability is how you take care of something. I am totally confindent in my new Ford. It is well built and my friends Japanese vehicles have nothing on it when it comes to build quality. 20 years ago, this was not the case. Today, the domestic lines are catching right up with the Japanese and when it comes time to deal and the Toyota dealer demands a much higher price then a domestic you wonder if it is really worth it. MSRP might look almost the same, but when it comes time to deal I can tell you where you will save thousands. Money is not a big deal to a lot of people, but to me it means a lot.

I can name several vehicles that Ford builds that will compete with anything out there. First of all, if you need a pickup there is only one F-150. Often copied but never duplicated. You want to see the difference in build quality I recommend you spend some time at this site...

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/truth/index.asp?bannerid=FV10004

I recommend to any pro-Toyota person to go to the road test link and make sure you check out the Silver Creek Shootout. It will scare you when you see how cheap the Toyota Tundra is built. I can only hope they do better with their passenger cars.

There is nothing wrong with the new Explorer, Mustang, Fusion, or Five-Hundred. All are great vehicles that deserve a look. On the small car side I would recommend the Mazda 3 which is the European Focus in the states. It is too bad that Ford only brought that car to Mazda. It is first in class in many areas.

Anyhow before you bash Ford you really need to look at that road test. If Toyota went that cheap on their fullsized pickup it makes you wonder where else they are cutting corners.

If a Camry and a Five-Hundred were going to be in a head on collision I can tell you which I would choose. Sure the Five-Hundred has a lot of Volvo in it, but the fact remains that it even earned higher safety ratings then the S80 from which it was born. No Ford is not perfect and they have a lot of ways to go, but it is silly to cross them off of your list because a bad experience years ago. If that was the case there would be A LOT of people still crossing the Korean cars off their shopping lists.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Health care costs have risen for sure but i feel that both companys are stretching this for P.R. I know someone who advises GM on certain matters and from what he has told me its smoke and mirrors for what is the real problem. A beauracratic Management loaded with bean counters who's focus is on anything but cars. You would be amazed at the stories i have been told by this family member, amazed. Its not the workers, its not the pensions that 50 years of being #1 should have paid for. Its the clowns that make decisions like building fuggly looking cars or killing the Camaro, shooting down one great concept for the sake of the corvette that was being made at the time, decisions like lets build a Vega with a aluminum engine with no steel??? or lets build a god ugly Cobalt then wonder why no one wants one. It starts at Management and they are the one who run the show they are the ones to blame. Management.

 

[geese]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Nissan (drive a Maxima). Loads of power and it's quality from top to bottom. Unfortunately I don't like the direction they're taking their exteriors in the past couple of years, but hey, mine's from 2001.

The funny thing is that Nissan Maxima's were totally in invisable in the UK. They sold them here in the 90's and were not popular. And they depreciated like a rock. you could easily have lost 50% after 2 years of ownership. They just didnt have the presige brand like Jaguar or BMW. The only prestige japanese brand to be successful in Europe is Lexus.

Yet the Ford Focus is considered a decent car here. Car culture is a funny thing, innit?

 

[aloofman]

Well I bought a 2005 Explorer this summer and I could not be happier with the purchase. Some of my friends basically called me nuts to support an American company like Ford, but I did it anyways. It seems like even if the domestic auto companies have a good product it is not trendy to buy from them. Almost get labeled as anti-American if you buy domestic anymore. But anyhow on to my story...

I have no quarrel with any of that. If you're choosing between two similar vehicles and one is $9,000 less, you'd be a fool not to seriously consider it, even if you're sure it will require more repairs or you don't like it quite as much. What are the odds that it will need $9K more in repairs than the 4-Runner? Very low. And of course you shouldn't believe anything a salesman tells you, whether he sells Toyotas or any other make.

Personally, I don't like the new 4-Runner at all. I think they turned what was a smaller, more nimble design into a bigger, clunkier form. And the dash controls were disgusting. I believe there were plus-sign-shaped buttons on there, like the left keypad of an old Nintendo controller on steroids. And the oversized wheel wells are like an homage to Dodge's ultra-aggressive "the bigger my truck is the less likely you'll notice my tiny penis" styling.

I drive a Toyota truck, so I'm not unbiased about these things. But if I were in the market and had the cash, the new Mustang GT convertible would be very tempting.