Ford,GM,Chrysler

[SharksFan22]

I was told to look at a Toyota 4Runner because my friend said it was a way better vehicle then an Explorer. Well I drove one and it was ok, seemed to ride a lot rougher and did not have as much space inside, but it was a nice vehicle. It was not equipped nearly as well as the Explorer and the MSRP on the vehicle was around $34,000. The dealer told me Toyota's never break down and that the 4Runner sells like hotcakes so there was no coming off of MSRP. I bought the Explorer for $9,000 less!!! Nine Thousand Dollars!!! I can not see any reason to buy the 4Runner. I told the Toyota dealer what the Ford dealer would do and he just laughed and said...we don't need your business. It just seems like Toyota has became so arrogant and think they are so above anyone that they can just continue to drive their prices through the ceiling. This is the attitude that will start to kill them.

I had the same experience. Last year I debated between a new Toyota Tacoma truck and a similarly equipped Chevrolet Colorado. Sure, the Toyota was nicer inside, but it felt a little tippy and was about $7,000 more than the Chevy. I just couldn't justify that difference on a mid-$20K purchase. The Toyota was nice and the Chevy probably won't be as reliable in the long run but paying a 30% premium just didn't make sense to me.

 

[DakotaGuy]

Personally, I'm a big fan of Nissan (drive a Maxima). Loads of power and it's quality from top to bottom. Unfortunately I don't like the direction they're taking their exteriors in the past couple of years, but hey, mine's from 2001.

Nissan quality? Maybe on some models, but not the ones that are coming out of their plant in the US. You could blame it to start-up problems with a new factory, but I will blame it on thier parent company trying to make more profit. Ever heard of Renault? Now there is a company that is NOT known for quality! Renault imported and built some of the worse cars to ever drive down a road. Maybe their French counterparts were better, but all you have to say is LeCar, Fuego, Alliance, and Encore. No thanks! I mean all companies have a lot better products today, but those were about as unreliable of a vehicle that ever rolled down an assembly line. I would trust the domestics over Renault anyday. The only difference now...well Renault has the Nissan name to throw on the vehicle, so no matter how poor the quality becomes, people will still keep buying them. Link that discusses Nissan's quality problems...

Now I am not debating Toyota or Honda quality...I know they have that and a lot of it. I buy Yamaha motorsports products for the quality reason as well. I just think Nissan is starting to fall and a lot of that can be blamed on Renault.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060107/AUTO01/601070335/1148

 

[Belly-laughs]

I differ with you on this, GM and Ford biggest problem is lack of decent Management. Both have been ran by bean counters for years,decades hence the products they make. They are more interested in the stock price then cars, both more interested in banking rather then making great cars. I feel very sad for the workers getting laid off. The first people that should get kicked out are the managers, designers and corporate pigs.

Well, with stock prices now slipping to all-time lows I´m sure they´ll get their act together

In relation to your request for new management, it seems Ford at least are doing something about it…

As for the question wether American car makers are going out of business or not, I see this as a mere transitional phase. A natural cycle. It´s just a consequence of competition with smarter opponents. GM´s been top dog for too many years, a tear-down from the throne will force them to change for the better, maybe regaining old glory in a few decades, perhaps then dethroning an Asian dinosaur.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Well, with stock prices now slipping to all-time lows I´m sure they´ll get their act together

In relation to your request for new management, it seems Ford at least are doing something about it…

As for the question wether American car makers are going out of business or not, I see this as a mere transitional phase. A natural cycle. It´s just a consequence of competition with smarter opponents. GM´s been top dog for too many years, a tear-down from the throne will force them to change for the better, maybe regaining old glory in a few decades, perhaps then dethroning an Asian dinosaur.

Stocks just went up after hearing 30,000 american jobs lost. Its a F up' system that runs these corporations. The american Job is the last thing these rich bastards care about. Its why Big Business needs to be seperated from govt. The rich that run these companys care only for their wallets.

 

[danny_w]

When will people learn that stock prices have little if anything to do with a corporation's health, but all to do with investor's perception. Unless you have stock investments in the company, then ignore the stock prices.

 

[portent]

I can name several vehicles that Ford builds that will compete with anything out there. First of all, if you need a pickup there is only one F-150. Often copied but never duplicated. You want to see the difference in build quality I recommend you spend some time at this site...

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/truth/index.asp?bannerid=FV10004

I recommend to any pro-Toyota person to go to the road test link and make sure you check out the Silver Creek Shootout. It will scare you when you see how cheap the Toyota Tundra is built. I can only hope they do better with their passenger cars.

Ummm...that "Shootout" was conducted by Ford, and is presented on Ford's website. It's easy to make competitors look bad when you control the conditions and you can tamper with their products.

 

[geese]

Ever heard of Renault? Now there is a company that is NOT known for quality!

To be fair- Renault only own about 20% of Nissan. It doesnt really follow that Nissans quality is getting lower due to Renault. Renaults are actually pretty reliable now- my friends mum had a little Clio that got to 120,000 miles without ever getting it serviced! If she looked after it, it would have gone for longer.

I do beleive that Renault are partly responsible for the quite frankly ugly design direction that Nissan are taking. Do an image search for the current Micra or Primera- urgh!

 

[decksnap]

Nissan quality? Maybe on some models, but not the ones that are coming out of their plant in the US.

Well I can tell you of all the mechanics I know (and I know quite a few), they all recommended Nissans. (And Hondas, and Toyotas). The engines in these cars are built to last SO much longer than many American cars. But that's just engine quality.

I'm one of these people that's a real stickler for aesthetics. I have to say that Nissan has some of the nicest interiors around. I could go on and on about my baby but I'll spare you!

I don't know what kind of 98 Maxima Danny W had, but like a lot of cars, even Maximas come in a baseline 'bargain' model that doesn't have the rims, tires, trimming, features, etc... of the luxury Maximas.

 

[Counterfit]

Agila, Mervia, Zafira, Signum... you'd be hard pressed to think of a range of cars that are as dull as that, even Honda can't top that line up of outright banality.

Toyota has a near-monopoly on boring cars. And why they decided to add body-cladding to the Corolla just as Pontiac was getting rid of that crap, you got me.

i guess you have never driven around LA, DC or the Northeast. the "get up and go" factor when buying a car is usually high on potential buyers lists of wants.

That's another thing. We have rather short exit lanes from on-ramps in the N.E. (especially in mass, there's usually no actual lane. stupid gits), so holding speed through the corner (which NO ONE does ) and accelerating out of it well are important. Then there are the hills. Not so much in LA or DC, but in most of the Northeast (especially inland New England) there are hills, and we have to drive over them. Less than 130-140 lb-ft of torque just doesn't cut it.

 

[yg17]

I don't find the Asian cars to be bland.... they're certainly better than the big 3.

We have 3 Hyundais in the family (04 Tiburon, 04 Sonata, 05 Elantra) and they're all great cars and get good MPG. And I personally love my Tiburon. May not be fast, but it certainly isn't bland and is fun to drive.

 

[Belly-laughs]

Stocks just went up after hearing 30,000 american jobs lost. Its a F up' system that runs these corporations. The american Job is the last thing these rich bastards care about. Its why Big Business needs to be seperated from govt. The rich that run these companys care only for their wallets.

Again, axing jobs is a part of a restructuring process. I very much doubt it´s done solely to please the stock market although traders who have requested this will applaud it. With margins cut thinner, efficiency rules, someone´s gotta go. To the car makers, their workers are nothing but tools required to put their vehicles together. Designers and engineers (and your bean counters) always push for cheaper production methods, not involving humans. We are expensive and error prone. The Japanese have always been good at this.

But I agree that Big Business should be separated from government, but in countries where Big Money do the talking, I don´t see that happening anytime soon.

 

[ziwi]

I have had Mazda's, ford's, toyota's and Honda's.
I believe that the American companies can not compete with the mileage of the 4 cyl. engines from the Japanese makers. I do think that the 6 cyl cars are better in mileage from the American cars though - here is an example:
I have a 6 cyl honda accord and track the mileage and have never broke 25 MPG average on a tank that is a mix city / hwy. My father gets better from his Taurus and in talking to others - it leave me wanting for better mileage that I may want to dump the accord for a civic or smaller car for the better mileage.

As far as why American companies are behind it all has to do with Oil money and the lobbists. Innovation used to be important, but now it is all the oil $$ and tax incentives. Instead of taking the lead in innovation thy have been trying to squeeze out every drop of $$ and oil in this antiquated technology.

If they were interested in innovation and cleaner sources of energies - then we would have better cars here - and I think we would also have alot less issues in the Middle East...

 

[cubist]

The Focus cars sold in the US are made in Mexico. The chief problem with cars made in Mexico (VW Golf and New Beetle are also good examples) is very poor quality control. Cars come with loose bolts, poorly-tightened engine nuts and bolts, badly-installed gaskets... Ford and VW are destroying their reputation by not insisting on better initial quality, and they don't seem to care.

GM has too many lines, and they seem to fear that good inexpensive cars will cannibalize sales of the more expensive models. (Gee, what computer company does that remind you of?)

We have a Camry that has not had one serious problem in close to 100K miles. I don't think the parts are any better quality - why, the driver's side door handle broke off! Never heard of that happening on any other car - but the build quality was very, very good.

 

[iGav]

Fair enough on the vauxhalls then. although i do think the current Vectras have a nice retro touch about them- reminds me of the early 80s/late 70s vauxhalls.

What I can't fathom is how they went from cars like the Carlton (ahead of it's time in '87) and the beautiful Calibra, to cars like their current range that just seem to me to be stuck in an early '90's time warp aesthetically.

Whats wrong with torsion beam suspension?

Nothing... back in 1968 that is. heh.

What is it in fact?

Here you go.

Buy this weeks Autocar magazine, and there's a great picture showing the difference between a Focus ST and an Astra VXR through a corner.

Have you seen the new Civic?

Yep, and I don't like it. It trys too hard. The problem it'll have is that it'll date really quickly, it trys to be radical... and it fails.

Good design doesn't need to be radical, hence why the TT still looks fresh even after all these years.

I doubt many old biddies will be buying it.

I bet they do... in the tanker load.

It lacks image, and there lies Honda's problem, that and antiquated engineering of course. Old folk will buy them because of Honda's reliability. And that will have a detrimental effect on the sales to younger people.

Just like what's happened to Peugeot's 1007, aimed at youngsters... but ends up being too expensive for the target audience, instead the dodgy hip brigade love it's sliding door, because it provides easier access.

 

[Counterfit]

I don't find the Asian cars to be bland.... they're certainly better than the big 3.

I'm only saying Toyotas are bland. Hyundai has some good looking models (like the Tiburon), although the Kia Amanti seems like it's trying to look like a Jag AND a Merc.

 

[SharksFan22]

I'm only saying Toyotas are bland. Hyundai has some good looking models (like the Tiburon), although the Kia Amanti seems like it's trying to look like a Jag AND a Merc.

I would offer that there's almost a "personality" associated with cars engineered in the different geographies. I've owned American (GMC, Jeep, Pontiac, Ford), Japanese (Acura, Toyota, Mazda), and German (BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW) and would break it down like this:

American cars tend to be the least sophisticated, have the most rattles, lowest priced and best "brutish" performance for the money.
Japanese cars tend to have more sophisticated interiors, pamper the drivers, most fuel efficient, but non-inspired or "passionate" driving styles
German cars are built like tanks, the most expensive, have uninviting interiors, but have "soul" that encourages driving. Each German car I owned felt much more "connected" to the road than the American or Japanese ones.

Just an observation....

 

[~Shard~]

I'm only saying Toyotas are bland. Hyundai has some good looking models (like the Tiburon), although the Kia Amanti seems like it's trying to look like a Jag AND a Merc.

I own a Tiburon - thanks.

 

[geese]

I would offer that there's almost a "personality" associated with cars engineered in the different geographies. I've owned American (GMC, Jeep, Pontiac, Ford), Japanese (Acura, Toyota, Mazda), and German (BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW) and would break it down like this:

<snip>

Just an observation....

I like that comparison!

In my experience the personality of Italian cars (Fiat, Alfa Romeo) can be compared to a having a girlfriend who'll breakdown at any given opportunity and will throw a strop when you least expect it. And is as delicate as an anorexic.

 

[miloblithe]

Sorry folks, the Tiburon has to be the ugliest car even made.

 

[~Shard~]

Sorry folks, the Tiburon has to be the ugliest car even made.

Why are you sorry? No need to apologize to anyone just because of your opinion. Taste in cars is a very personal thing, as this thread demonstrates extremely well. As a result, I'm sure there are many people out there who feel that whatever car you drive is the ugliest piece of crap ever, so it's all good.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Sorry folks, the Tiburon has to be the ugliest car even made.

If so Chevy Cobalt has to be a close second. What was GM thinking?

 

[jazzmfk]

Sorry folks, the Tiburon has to be the ugliest car even made.

um, hello?

(cough) Aztek? (cough)
(cough) Avalanche? (cough)
(cough) mid-'80s Bonneville Station Wagon? (cough)

Though I do agree that the first iteration of the Tiburon was hideous (the new one is better, but I won't be driving it any time soon....), I think there are so many cars that are uglier than that. How 'bout those Chevy (GMC?) pickups with the parking light/turn signals way up above the headlights? The rear end of the Bangle-ized BMWs? The PowerPuff girl tailights on the past generation of Saturns? Please....

 

[~Shard~]

um, hello?

(cough) Aztek? (cough)
(cough) Avalanche? (cough)
(cough) mid-'80s Bonneville Station Wagon? (cough)

Though I do agree that the first iteration of the Tiburon was hideous (the new one is better, but I won't be driving it any time soon....), I think there are so many cars that are uglier than that. How 'bout those Chevy (GMC?) pickups with the parking light/turn signals way up above the headlights? The rear end of the Bangle-ized BMWs? The PowerPuff girl tailights on the past generation of Saturns? Please....

Excellent examples - I especially hate the look of the Aztek, but again, personal preference. (I'd like to think my taste isn't that bad though... )

 

[DCBass]

In regards to mpg, you cannot entirely blame management at GM or Ford. Surely, their demands of the American car-buying public is at fault as well. There's a reason these carmakers (esp. Toyota and Nissan) are making so many trucks.

You also criticize GM's cancellation of the Camaro. What do you expect? Two-door coupes were not selling well, so they had to make the logical business decision.

Now, I'll join in with anyone criticizing the Big 3's product styling decisions in the past several years anyday, but come on, some one's got to admit that the Big 3 have some exciting products coming down the line (esp. compared to Toyota, blech...). GM is actively paring down their products, so they don't produce many of the same car, but more different models. Chrysler is doing very well (and holding up MB). And Ford had a good show at the NAIAS.

Finally, I would encourage all of you to look past the headline of 30,000 layoffs and read what Bill Ford had to say. Ford management IS taking the blame. Both white-collar executives will be laid off as well. Ford is dedicating themselves to making exciting small cars. Ford also has plans to develop an entirely recyclable car (how's that for environmentally friendly?).

Peace-

 

[Studawg7]

I like that comparison!

In my experience the personality of Italian cars (Fiat, Alfa Romeo) can be compared to a having a girlfriend who'll breakdown at any given opportunity and will throw a strop when you least expect it. And is as delicate as an anorexic.

HAHA thats a great quote!

talking about ugly cars im currently driving an ugly one (im a student come on) but shes got 170k miles on a brute of a Chevy V6 with good mpg. I cant complain about that. I just cant wait to get my new car in < 6 months from now. I'm thinking Infiniti G35 coupe or Lexus IS350. Anyone have issues with those? lol