Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Sorry, but no consumer electronic device is worth someone losing their life. It is sad that some companies take secrecy so far. Sure it is great to keep everything a secret and shock people when releasing a new product, but if this type if thing happens, it is not worth it.
 
It is not the device but the screw up.

It's a freakin phone......not that serious, sheesh:(
It is senseless to focus on the device when the problem was the screw up. At least this individual took his part in this mess seriously. It is not something you see in the US anymore. It is one of the reasons so many of our jobs have left the country, no one here gives a damn about doing a good job or taking responsibility for a screw up.

We may precieve the suicide as the wrong approach but when you live in a culture like ours where any approach to personal responsibility is frowned upon I think anything this guy did would get bad press in the US. It is like the health care debate, the majority of the people have become so sleazy with respect to personal responsibility they want to hand over control of their health to the government. Frankly the average American could learn a thing or two from this guy.

Dave
 
Apple bettter have some response to this

What would you have them do?

It's a Foxconn issue. Someone decided to off himself. And further, in some cultures, it's an issue of honour. Once that is gone, so is the reason to continue living. In Japan, for instance, Bushido isn't dead. The ancient samurai might have died with Yukio Mishima during the Shield Society incident, but self-immolation as penance for dishonour is still a very real part of Asian culture.

Apple can't babysit its suppliers all the time.

And if you want to keep jobs in America, tell the unions to release their stranglehold on the North American manufacturing industry. We can no longer afford to pay for exorbitant benefits, paid leaves, sick leaves, personal days, all kinds of overtime, etc. It's not working.
 
I called Apple many times to report unethical and illegal actions including not being payed. First off, they don't even have an avenue of contact. Second, once I did get through to the regular employee relations all my calls were ignored.


You said you worked for another company, not Apple. so what is Apple supposed to do about your pay, or lack thereof.

these work agreements don't give companies like Apple total authority over their vendors. and every company has disgruntled employees that might lie and such.

if you really weren't paid, I have to wonder why you didn't file a state complaint against your employer. THAT is the proper route to have taken. Then when Arise was proven to have not been paying right according to the law, then perhaps Apple could drop them for violating contract rules that they would always act according to appropriate laws. but until then, they don't have any authority to investigate etc.
 
It is senseless to focus on the device when the problem was the screw up. At least this individual took his part in this mess seriously. It is not something you see in the US anymore. It is one of the reasons so many of our jobs have left the country, no one here gives a damn about doing a good job or taking responsibility for a screw up.

We may precieve the suicide as the wrong approach but when you live in a culture like ours where any approach to personal responsibility is frowned upon I think anything this guy did would get bad press in the US. It is like the health care debate, the majority of the people have become so sleazy with respect to personal responsibility they want to hand over control of their health to the government. Frankly the average American could learn a thing or two from this guy.

Dave

A crime has been committed somewhere along the line...

... over the enormous value of a prototype iPhone in the counterfeiting nation of the world.

To chock this up to "Chinese employee loyalty" is complete naivete.

But then to ream Americans for being "disloyal employees" is ridiculous. Foolish. Insane.

You do have a point, however, when Chinese spies stole our nuclear secrets from Los Alamos.

Some Americans there SHOULD have committed suicide over their negligence. A hard drive "fell" behind a copying machine and was never found?

You guys heard about the crack whore who was being busted for drugs recently in her run down apartment, and they found a flash drive on her that contained US nuclear secrets?

What kind of daydream are we in the West living? It's scary how dumb.
 
**** foxconn, apple. shame. nothing is worhty than life. it is just damn prototype whatever it is. just piece of **** something. I don't care how it was important. you can't bring him back to life now. ****ing prototype? it can be made anytime.:mad:
 
The suicide dude obviously stole the phone and felt guilty about it. Like Baretta said "don't do the crime if you can't do the time. don't do it. do do do. keep your eye iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii on the sparrow. do do do."

They should have used FedEx. When it absolutely, positively has to get there overnight.
 
The suicide dude obviously stole the phone and felt guilty about it. Like Baretta said "don't do the crime if you can't do the time. don't do it. do do do. keep your eye iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii on the sparrow. do do do."

Does that mean you are willing to pay damages to Mr. Sun's family if it turns out that your post is just cruel libel against a man who cannot defend himself?
 
Does that mean you are willing to pay damages to Mr. Sun's family if it turns out that your post is just cruel libel against a man who cannot defend himself?

And just what would those damages be? There are no damages. No case. They guy can post whatever he wants here unless a mod thinks it's unfit.

Hasn't anyone wondered if maybe this was just the last straw to a really bad day? People commit suicide over less. Maybe his girl left him then he found out he has cancer. Then this whole lost iPhone thing put him over the edge. Who knows?
 
There isn't really casue to blame Apple for this.

Foxconn is a bigger company than apple. They have a revenue of 51.8 billion USD (2008) vs Apple's US$32.48 billion (FY 2008) and employe indirectly 500,000 people (according to Fortune Mag) vs Apple's 35,000.

They manufacture for Dell and Hewlett-Packard; the PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 for Sony; the Wii for Nintendo;the Xbox 360 for Microsoft, cell phones for Motorola, and the Amazon Kindle.

Yes Apple could take a stand on this, but Foxconn would suvive without Apple.
 
Like a previous poster said: how valuable would an iPhone prototype have been to counterfeiters, heck even Microsoft, in December 2006? Your logic makes no sense.

Judging from the past two years at Microsoft, with FULL knowledge of the iPhone, previous disclosure wouldn't have made much difference at all. :)

Everyone knew the iPhone was coming. Including its likely name. It was even reported that Foxconn was building it.

The only mystery was how good or bad it would be.
 
Please read my above post. This has NOTHING to do with Apple except their product excellence combined with an idiotic idea that working in the counterfeit capital of the world in Chinese factories "saves" them money.

When just one prototype product of Apple gets out in China, Apple has lost much much more money than their slave labor shops in China "saves" them.

Apple has lost BILLIONS because of illegal Chinese counterfeits. To project on to the Chinese some ridiculous idea of that they have to "save face" is an American foolishness.

Someone bribed someone regarding this billion dollar prototype.

One prototype represents a how many millions of dollars in research and development for Apple?

Is any of that supposed to make the kid's family feel better? What do they care about counterfeits and loss of profits?
Apple should immediately drop Foxconn and go with someone else.....end of story!
 
Does that mean you are willing to pay damages to Mr. Sun's family if it turns out that your post is just cruel libel against a man who cannot defend himself?

Right...

He should pay damages for posting an opinion on an internet forum...

Maybe then all the people posting their opinions about Apple's or Foxconn's involvment should pay damages if it (probably) turn's out that they did not toss him out the window.
 
Don't you guys get it?

China is the counterfeiting nation.

A moot or at best completely tangential point.


Someone bribed someone.

again moot point unless you are trying to claim this specific guy took the bribe, got busted and then jumped out the window.





This has NOTHING to do with Apple, except their idiotic idea that using Chinese factories is a "good" idea.

If Foxconn habitually lost Apple prototypes on an ongoing basis do you really thing they would still getting 100's of millions in contracts from Apple? There are millions more to be made by making real iPhones than in making fake ones.

Apple (and every other major multinational ) knows they are going to get ripped off when they go to China. They just mark it up to the cost of doing business there. Microsoft looses many millions there too, but enough folks do pay there that it is still millions more than if weren't doing business in China. The vast majority of companies are mesmerized by the "Billions and Billions" of Chinese customers. Even those the vast majority of them cannot afford their goods. If there is a 8-20% fraction that will can still have a market the size of a large "Western" country.


There is some benefit to Apple trying to play a role in changing conditions in China. They get to regulate how well they want the standard to be on the treatment of workers. High enough so that it is recruiting and propaganda tool but not so high that have to make any sacrifices/tradeoffs don't want to.






I think people on MR were talking about this problem years ago when some very very good counterfeit shuffles were showing up and it was obvious that Apple's plastic molds and designs were being counterfeited, very very well.

Those are going to show up whether the prototype is stolen or not.
The knock-offs are so much dramatically cheaper that they are usually being sold into a market Apple was going to ignore anyway. (so being first to market with a product most folks in the world can't afford has substantially less impact versus the knock-offs that will be priced into that market.) Same thing with most of these other manufacturers. As long it is a cheap knock-off that has less material value to their primary markets they are will to life with them. [ They'll continue to moan and groan to the Chinese govt about it... but they will buy off those officials and continue to do business as long as the vast majority of the knock offs stay inside China. ]


Jobs and Woz used to sell phone phreaking equipment. They know all about knocking off and taking money from large corporations is all about. Jobs knows some folks are going to steal. If that is kept to small percentage it will still grow as the overall business that Apple does goes larger. 400 million and knock-offs take 0.5% is 2 million. 40 Billion and that is 200 million "stolen". You're looking at the WRONG slice of the pie if fixated on the second number in each of those two examples.

In most countries, more of the consumers want to do the right thing. Pay a reasonable price for something that has reasonable value to them.
Where the pricing is out of whack is were more folks will buy other options that knock-offs. The bigger the gap between ability to pay and value the larger the tension. Most companies adjust their tolerance to what the local "gap" distance is.
 
There isn't really casue to blame Apple for this.

Foxconn is a bigger company than apple. They have a revenue of 51.8 billion USD (2008) vs Apple's US$32.48 billion (FY 2008) and employe indirectly 500,000 people (according to Fortune Mag) vs Apple's 35,000.

They manufacture for Dell and Hewlett-Packard; the PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 for Sony; the Wii for Nintendo;the Xbox 360 for Microsoft, cell phones for Motorola, and the Amazon Kindle.

Yes Apple could take a stand on this, but Foxconn would suvive without Apple.

so? apple should just back out to show they dont support such inhuman work conditions cuz if 1 company starts some others might follow one day and foxconn or others will think twice about how they treat their workers but as usual its "what i dont see doesnt happen"
 
The first victim of that nasty Apple secrecy and 'profit margins'.

Apple has become a ghost company. There is a powerful and trigger-happy legal team; a product development team that is failing to accommodate the reality of manufacturing in fairly unsophisticated factories that have only marginally higher standard than so-called sweatshops; and worst of all, there is a damaging culture of secrecy that Jobs created.

I don't want my Mac being manufactured in places, where Apple can close a blind eye over intimidation and employee abuse. I can handle cheap computer parts that can be found in much cheaper computers. It is obvious, Apple is milking its golden goose, the OS X and abusing it's position. I can even accept poor quality, as that's what the last 6 (!) Apple portables that I bought remind me of. But I cannot accept, that for profit-making and 'margin-reducing' purposes, people can be abused one way or the other. Apple could check standards. If they don't, it must be intentional. Let's not confuse a blind eye with the lack of foresight or knowledge.

SHAME ON YOU, APPLE. FOR THIS MUCH, I BET THAT THESE PRODUCTS CAN BE MANUFACTURED IN A MORE HUMAN WAY.

And for Christ's sake, get rid of that old, sick man and that bully-culture!
 
I don't know about your country. At least in Germany you as an employee are fully liable for damages (to your company) if you grossly neglect your responsibilities (there are different rates if proven only partially neglecting your responsibilities). Since this guy was responsible for the safekeeping of the prototype I would say this could fall under this category.
If Foxconn fears that they might loose the contract over this stunt these damages could be quite high...

I am no lawyer and do not plan to become one and I don't know the rules in China. So this is pretty much speculation, just to show that there might be some real thread other than just loosing your job.

In the UK, people responsible for 10 digit damages (that is tens of billions of pounds) usually get a pension that is ten times more than most people earn. But maybe that is "gross incompetence" and not "gross negligence". But in Germany, "gross negligence" as opposed to ordinary negligence, requires, well, extraordinary negligence. Anyway, what you wrote just supports my statement that putting something like that into an employment contract would be useless.
 
It's my opinion that this kid being described as "mentally unstable" is a load of BULL! Hell, I'd be mentally unstable too if I was whacked around in an interrogation room by security forces!
This smells SOOOO much like what some ruthless shmuck in a position of power might order his people to do.

What if this kid was a fall guy while someone else profits from the corporate espionage? What if the freakin prototype simply got misplaced? Was that enough justification to illegally tear his apartment up and drive some kid to "suicide"?.........if it was that!

Apple SERIOUSLY needs to rethink their long term business relationships! :mad:

Years ago something like this would have been swept under the rug and forgotten about. But thanks to the internet stuff like this will always get leaked out.
 
He didn't jump. Steve Jobs flew to China direct to personally throw him out the window.

That has got to be one of the worst PJ I have ever heard on these forums. The guy died here. Not just died but he killed himself. Not the time for making jokes. I may sound a bit harsh but am really upset to read this along with a lot of other pj in this thread :mad:. I read this article through mr feed in google reader first. One user actually checked the "like" button on the reader. WTF. Also on MR too quite a few people have clicked positive for this thread. How could someone like the fact that a man had to commit suicide. Some people are just plain dumb to find this amusing.
 
Is any of that supposed to make the kid's family feel better? What do they care about counterfeits and loss of profits?
Apple should immediately drop Foxconn and go with someone else.....end of story!

Apple isn't going to do that.

http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/

If you look at the 2009 report on page 6. If a supplier violates one of their core requirements the punishment is:

"the supplier is placed on a one year probation"

Also have some squirelly math too. The chart on page 6 says that only 3% had violations but then on next page 7 out of 83 plants had underage children.... which sure seems like 8% to me. ( I suppose subcontractors don't count in that 3% ).

If look at the chart on page 8. Almost half of their contractors have frequent violations across the whole spectrum. Throw in limited violations and over half do.



But back to the punishment..... here is the hustle they could use with those constraints in a subset of cases where pressed for margins...
year one get low bidder that is going to stroke workers.
they get audited and put on the "fixed it or your dumped" list.
year two lets say contractor is super greedy, doesn't fix it, and gets dumped.

Apple gets two years of below market rates. Company goes to find new company to give them two years of work.

On the other hand.... I'm sure the spin is "We are going to help these folks learn how to be responsible contractors". Once they have learned and we skill have a low wage factory then get brownie points and save money.




They going to say they are giving it the ole college try to fix this stuff..... but as much as it doesn't get fixed and they make money off of it there is no "well fire them" urgency.
 
I wish several of the people I work with would jump off the window like that as well when they f**k up something.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.