Foxconn Workers Express Concern Over Reduced Overtime

[JAT]

Because the same country of those hard workers also have guys who'd run over a little girl with his van and keep driving, and on lookers who just let the little girl lie on the street dying for 15 minutes.

I don't see how you have a positive reaction from other posters for this drivel. My sister was run over here in the USA by a drunk that was never caught. Luckily she survived. There was a time in Mexico (maybe still), when a person would back up and finish the job, because the monetary cost of disabling someone was greater than that of killing them, assuming they'd get caught at all.

How many handpicked, individual stories from any country on the planet do you need to show that one story doesn't have statistical value?

 

[theheadguy]

Arn, you can do better.

That right there is why these are being made there and not here. We should get out of their business and let them work.

Don't worry, Mike Daisy knows better than you, silly factory workers -- you shouldn't be working so many hours. As long as some protestors feel better about themselves, that's all that matters.

Good job western society. We think we know what's best for these people and now you are taking hours away from them, which is money out of their pocket. If they want to work, let em work.

Haha, well there goes everybody's indignation about their "slave labor" practice.

How's about we stop imposing Western culture?

Really? REALLY? I'm embarrassed to be a member of a forum with so many ignorant people. We aren't simply "imposing Western culture". We are attempting to put a stop to the exploitation of extremely poor people who literally eat, sleep, and work in their master's home - Foxconn. How you all can act like working these employees to death is better than a $3 price increase in your iProduct is sickening.

I also think MacRumors (ARN!) should be ashamed of themselves. I think I've read the last "spin room" article that I can stomach here. The Foxconn employee isn't worried about "reduced overtime", he is worried about a loss of income-- a loss that, if you believe Foxconn (which obviously MR does), isn't going to happen anyway. The fact that he doesn't know Foxconn will augment his pay to offset the loss of working hours isn't unexpected-- he probably isn't getting the latest news bulletins like those of us who have the leisure to be on the Internet throughout the day. So his lack of knowledge about his own pay is hardly front page news-- unless it's purpose is to place Apple in a unconditional favorable light (a obnoxiously recurring theme here).

In case you are interested in the history, this forum went downhill once iEverything started dominating popular culture. People signed up in droves, forgetting they either hated Apple or completely ignored it before turning into current Apple zealots. Arn quit practicing medicine and focused on shepherding the masses to articles like this. Comments are often posted without thought, care, or concern. I guess it's society in general? Kind of like a delayed reaction to the current "standard" discourse of American politics? I guess the symptoms are obvious, but the cause may remain a mystery.

There are other Apple-related web sites that don't pander to the Foxconn loving/union hating crowd that seems to have amassed here. It's time to switch brands. Peace out, folks.

 

[JAT]

My Chinese parents have always worked 60-80 hours per week since immigrating to Canada in the 50's. In fact, they worked weekends too. As a physician, you won't find me on the golf course, as I'll either be working or enjoying my kids in their activities. I've recently reduced my work week from 70 to 50 hours and I feel like I'm on holidays. Working harder and longer hours is not always exploitation (or even making more $)....as I teach my kids, sometimes it's work ethic. Especially in the China of today, good companies with good benefits attract workers and vice versa (supply and demand as applies to working conditions). Workers actually want to work more...imagine that! Maybe we should butt out of our arm chair righteousness, focus on real social issues instead of the good efforts of good companies and let the world get on with being productive.

Now see, if you teach your kids to like golf....jackpot!

 

[Will do good]

Once again, these stupid American activists wants to force our western value and standards to the rest of the world. Most of these activist grew up middle class is having problem with their "white guilt".

Those of us immigrated from Asia knows the value of letting people be, they can work out their own problems without the "great white dope" getting in the way. Grow up and leave the rest of the world alone. We don't need your help!

 

[michaelsviews]

This is only the start

of worse to come.

Who for the US to get involved in this mess.

Stop pushing western culture on country's that do not want us there

 

[JAT]

We are attempting to put a stop to the exploitation of extremely poor people who literally eat, sleep, and work in their master's home - Foxconn. How you all can act like working these employees to death is better than a $3 price increase in your iProduct is sickening.

Proof? Or are you just trolling or using inflammatory words for fun? Maybe these 2 words mean something different to you?

 

[harmonthe3rd]

Really

Foxconn employees complain when a step is taken to make their working life less slave like.

If you need overtime to survive you have the wrong job or are living above your means.

Please tell me what plant you live on? Work a min. wage job for 40 hours a week and tell me you can pay your basic bills. Rent, phone, food, insurance (car and renters), gas and of course entertainment. Now that you see you can't I wont you to work twice as long for a 4th less and see if you complain when your OT is cut and you didn't ask for it.

 

[Will do good]

My Chinese parents have always worked 60-80 hours per week since immigrating to Canada in the 50's. In fact, they worked weekends too. As a physician, you won't find me on the golf course, as I'll either be working or enjoying my kids in their activities. I've recently reduced my work week from 70 to 50 hours and I feel like I'm on holidays. Working harder and longer hours is not always exploitation (or even making more $)....as I teach my kids, sometimes it's work ethic. Especially in the China of today, good companies with good benefits attract workers and vice versa (supply and demand as applies to working conditions). Workers actually want to work more...imagine that! Maybe we should butt out of our arm chair righteousness, focus on real social issues instead of the good efforts of good companies and let the world get on with being productive.

Could,'t agree with you more. These self righteous activist want to force their American values and standard to the rest of the world, because they know what's best. They can't help but put their noses in everyone else's business.

 

[pgtruesdell]

I am Brazilian too, so it's important to respond to your uninformed diatribe...Brazil already has the highest C-level earnings of the whole world, as well as extensive mandatory employee benefits which US workers have never dreamed of having. We also have one of the most expensive employee-related costs of any country (apart from Scandinavia), which in the end is the reason why you don't many products "Made in Brazil" out there.

You may call this excessive, but at least it provides a bit of stability to those being employed instead of just allowing companies to throw people in the gutters when they are no longer wanter.

The US, on the other hand, boasts of having a "liberal" (as is non-regulated) market with close to ZERO basic benefits such as health care and mandatory severance. In other words, even if you don't want to you must work as slaves to make a living - the only difference with China is that living costs are much higher; therefore your earnings must also be higher just to cover rent and food in the US.

As for your criticism of vacations days, this is just wrong: Brazilians have 30 calendar days of statutory holidays, just like France, Finland and in line with most European standards (between 25 and 30 days). However, it's almost impossible for Brazilians to really take those 30 days/year in the private sector - most either defer them or get some cash back upon leaving. We also do NOT have the same flexibility as countries like Switzerland and others to work 80% or 60% (most Brazilian employees are either full-time or nothing).

As for a 44-hour week, what the hell would you expect when the whole Europe STILL has averages between 40 and 48 hours, with an average COLLECTIVELY-AGREED week of less than 40 hours?

Once more, the only difference between US and Chinese employees is that your earn more - legally speaking, you are even more slaves than them nonetheless.

p.s.: To draw a parallel between Brazil and Greece is an absolute joke that merits no further consideration. Brazilians are widely known for their high levels of entrepreneurship, not to mention creativity and hard work despite all difficulties.

This is even more evident in the private sector (banking, legal, retail), where people work their arses off to support the growing corporate giants of today - the "lazy" Brazilians that you talk about today own(ed) or manage(d) Burger King, Embraer, BankBoston, Nissan/Peugeot, ABB, Inbev, Vale and Petrobrás; they develop world-famous apps such as Instagram; they excel at management techniques which miraculously merge US, European and even Eastern values.

Brazil is today the world's 6th biggest economy, having sharply reduced inequality over the last 15 years and with record levels of employment. Greece's only luck with its pea-sized economy is to be located in Europe - otherwise, they would be as developed as Tchad.

This is the reason the world's economy is in the crapper right now. People feel entitled to benefits that they have not earned and feel that they should have more and more for doing less work. I may be off a bit about a few facts but they still hold for the most part. If you don't earn it you don't deserve it.

Your own comparisons to europe are exactly my point. You all just love your socialism....

 

[Winni]

Good job western society. We think we know what's best for these people and now you are taking hours away from them, which is money out of their pocket. If they want to work, let em work.

Here's another idea: Adopt the Eastern Culture, work 80 to 100 hours per week for 500 US Dollars per month and "magically" all those jobs will return to the United States, solve your unemployment problem and fix your economy! Dang!

Something tells me that none of you would want that. So let's just pretend that this woman who doesn't know any better and probably was afraid to lose her job - and by that her existence - if she didn't say these things is representative for 1.2 million Foxconn employees and all Asian cultures combined. Let's also pretend that we do those people a favor buy paying them peanuts for their hard work so that we can keep on resting our fat, decadent asses on our couches while surfing the Internet with iGadgets that these workers produce but could never afford to own.

Yes, life is easy when you live in a rich country and never had to live under those conditions. Just let the suppressed work, because that's what they want.

One thing is true, though: One cannot eat Freedom. But one cannot eat luxury goods either. One day you will all wake up and discover that your wealth has gone because you were so smart to move all your production to the low-salary countries. And you gave them unlimited access to your "intellectual property", too. And then you discover that -they- have the knowledge, the factories AND the money. And that you will be forced to work for a dollar a day if you want to have food on your plate. Then let's discuss Western and Eastern culture and your attitude towards the world again.

 

[wowotoe]

1. As a business owner, if I need to be paying multiple employees to work 30-60 hours of OT regularly, then I clearly need to hire more employees. The cost of paying employees OT is greater than the $ they net.

2. If I were utilizing unskilled labor, adding new hires would be far far less costly than OT.

3. If Foxconn can't pay a higher wage and stay profitable without breaking Chinas glorious labor laws, then that's as good as the system they've built gets.

4. I don't know of any unskilled workers that make enough to support entire adult families with their wages.

Welcome to the developed world, China.

Earlier this year, Foxconn already hired 30K+ new employees. But guess what? more demands on iPad/iPhone!! and how fast can you build dorms for 30K new hires? Foxconn employee count is almost 1 million and occupied a town.

 

[ctdonath]

From the expired TJIC.com:

Say that we had first contact with some super (economically) advanced aliens.

…and pretty soon they set up factories here.

…and I was offered a job in one of these factories, doing software engineering.

The pay is $400k/year.

The work week is 20 hours long.

The work environment is far better than I’m used to – great internal decoration, well tended plants, a zen-like water garden near my desk, massages every other day.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” started protesting, because I was being forced to work for less than a quarter of the prevailing wage in Alpha Centauri, and my work hours were twice as long as the legal norms in Alpha Centauri, and I didn’t have every mandatory benefits like “other other year off”, and “free AI musical composition mentoring”.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” wanted to make it illegal for my employer and I to contract with each other at mutually beneficial terms.

…then I would be rip **** that some elitist who had never visited me, or knew of my actual alternatives on the ground presumed to decide that I shouldn’t have this opportunity.

Which brings me to my core point: Chinese factory conditions may not be the exact cup of tea for a San Francisco graphic designer or a Connecticut non-profit ecologist grant writer … but they’re, by definition, better than all the other alternatives available to the Chinese workers (or the factories would find it impossible to staff up).

Butt out, clueless activists.

 

[Winni]

Once again, these stupid American activists wants to force our western value and standards to the rest of the world. Most of these activist grew up middle class is having problem with their "white guilt".

Those of us immigrated from Asia knows the value of letting people be, they can work out their own problems without the "great white dope" getting in the way. Grow up and leave the rest of the world alone. We don't need your help!

I'm sorry, but if that Western help is so bad, why again do you still live in the US and have not yet moved back to Asia where there is no guilty feeling middle class and where people work out their own problems? Let me guess... Life is more comfortable in the US where everything has a higher standard, isn't it?

 

[brdeveloper]

German law has an overriding principle that facts override contracts. So in this case if the worker works from nine to five, and takes orders from the boss, he isn't self employed no matter what contracts they have.

This principle is applied here too, but people seldom sue companies afraid of losing future job oportunities.

 

[harmonthe3rd]

Lol

Really? REALLY? I'm embarrassed to be a member of a forum with so many ignorant people. We aren't simply "imposing Western culture". We are attempting to put a stop to the exploitation of extremely poor people who literally eat, sleep, and work in their master's home - Foxconn. How you all can act like working these employees to death is better than a $3 price increase in your iProduct is sickening.

I also think MacRumors (ARN!) should be ashamed of themselves. I think I've read the last "spin room" article that I can stomach here. The Foxconn employee isn't worried about "reduced overtime", he is worried about a loss of income-- a loss that, if you believe Foxconn (which obviously MR does), isn't going to happen anyway. The fact that he doesn't know Foxconn will augment his pay to offset the loss of working hours isn't unexpected-- he probably isn't getting the latest news bulletins like those of us who have the leisure to be on the Internet throughout the day. So his lack of knowledge about his own pay is hardly front page news-- unless it's purpose is to place Apple in a unconditional favorable light (a obnoxiously recurring theme here).

In case you are interested in the history, this forum went downhill once iEverything started dominating popular culture. People signed up in droves, forgetting they either hated Apple or completely ignored it before turning into current Apple zealots. Arn quit practicing medicine and focused on shepherding the masses to articles like this. Comments are often posted without thought, care, or concern. I guess it's society in general? Kind of like a delayed reaction to the current "standard" discourse of American politics? I guess the symptoms are obvious, but the cause may remain a mystery.

There are other Apple-related web sites that don't pander to the Foxconn loving/union hating crowd that seems to have amassed here. It's time to switch brands. Peace out, folks.

SO when you were writing this did you think about what you are saying or just pull out of your "you know what". I think you fail to realize that Foxconn
makes products for just about all the major players, HP, Microsoft, Dell and oh yeah Apple. And this $3 increase crap you talk of, ha! Make a great product that people want and your going to make money. Make a slow no good product that people always use, and guess what, your going to make money. We have the demand for products, China has the supply of workers, do the math, well that is if you can do math with at this moment in time is a be if! However you want to roll the ball down the hill, its still going to go down the hill. What I don't seem to understand is why you care so much about the users and their opinions. No single person is asking you to side with them they are just expressing their opinions, kind of like you, without all the drama. oh and people never hated Apple, Apple just got left behind. If your upset about a company that decided to move on and make the changes it need to survive, then jump down to a company that's content with no moving faster than the pack. From what I hear Myspace is still around just for you!

 

[ckinyc]

The Cost Of Living does not exist to the high almighty!

The unfortunate reality of global trade is, you rely upon countries with cheap labor for manufacturing, and educated, high dollar labor for design and R&D. If we try to create parity we actually end up hurting the developing nation by removing their competitive advantage ie. labor costs.

What a lot of people are missing when they convert Chinese Salaries to American Dollars or Euro's is to adjust for cost of living. It's almost like comparing 1950's wages with today's wages without adjusting for inflation.

Amen!

BTW, there are new breed of rich Mainland Chinese running around Hong Kong and buy up everything from baby formulas to LV bags.

 

[ctdonath]

We are attempting to put a stop to the exploitation of extremely poor people who literally eat, sleep, and work in their master's home - Foxconn. How you all can act like working these employees to death

No, they're not being worked to death. Quite the opposite in fact if you bothered researching the issue.

Much of what you object to is normal for their culture. Their options are far worse. When there are openings, they line up by the tens of thousands for those jobs. Impose your values on them, and this dream opportunity will disappear and condemn them to far worse conditions. Not everybody wants your preferred living conditions - really. Insofar as there is room for improvement, that can only be reached so fast; there is a sustainable velocity toward better conditions, and going faster is destructive to those ends.

Increase costs, and they won't have a job at Foxconn at all.
Oddly, the best thing you can do for them is keep buying iDevices.

 

[brdeveloper]

You are absolutely right and Brdeveloper is flat wrong.

Exactly the SAME German principle applies in Brazil and is enforced almost every day by labor courts over there.

If there is an established link of subordination and "boss orders", the contractor is equated with an ordinary employee so that the company is almost always ordered to indemnify him.

In a perfect world, this is true. I know counterexamples in the IT and health sectors where people never sue companies afraid of being "blacklisted".

 

[slffl]

Lesson here is " damned if you do, damned if you don't."

 

[50548]

This is the reason the world's economy is in the crapper right now. People feel entitled to benefits that they have not earned and feel that they should have more and more for doing less work. I may be off a bit about a few facts but they still hold for the most part. If you don't earn it you don't deserve it.

Your own comparisons to europe are exactly my point. You all just love your socialism....

I am extremely conservative in fact, and have mainly supported Republican values in the US such as Ron Paul (having an American Democrat wife); to call me a "socialist" is to offend me - but this doesn't mean that the State shouldn't do the bare minimum to keep people alive.

Besides, the fact that you have almost 40 MILLION Americans without any access to health care is astounding, to say the least. If the State (or provinces) cannot provide for that, who can? I would assume Pentagon expenses are fine by you, right? Or should I pay for police services as well?

As for the world economy "in the crapper", I can't say that for Brazil - we actually finance your own crap in the US with our forex reserves, just as China. The only reason the US is not even deeper in a black hole right now is because you still have the USD as a reserve currency. Once this is superseded by the renminbi and others, you will see what a crisis is like, Republican president or not.

 

[pgtruesdell]

From the expired TJIC.com:

Say that we had first contact with some super (economically) advanced aliens.

…and pretty soon they set up factories here.

…and I was offered a job in one of these factories, doing software engineering.

The pay is $400k/year.

The work week is 20 hours long.

The work environment is far better than I’m used to – great internal decoration, well tended plants, a zen-like water garden near my desk, massages every other day.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” started protesting, because I was being forced to work for less than a quarter of the prevailing wage in Alpha Centauri, and my work hours were twice as long as the legal norms in Alpha Centauri, and I didn’t have every mandatory benefits like “other other year off”, and “free AI musical composition mentoring”.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” wanted to make it illegal for my employer and I to contract with each other at mutually beneficial terms.

…then I would be rip **** that some elitist who had never visited me, or knew of my actual alternatives on the ground presumed to decide that I shouldn’t have this opportunity.

Which brings me to my core point: Chinese factory conditions may not be the exact cup of tea for a San Francisco graphic designer or a Connecticut non-profit ecologist grant writer … but they’re, by definition, better than all the other alternatives available to the Chinese workers (or the factories would find it impossible to staff up).

Butt out, clueless activists.

I completely agree. I'm glad someone else gets it.

 

[Maltz]

Can't make everyone happy.

But the whole point was to "help" the workers in the first place. If they're not happy with the changes, who are we to ram them down their throats?

Typical "we know what's best for you" philosophy that both political sides in America espouse lately.

 

[50548]

I completely agree. I'm glad someone else gets it.

Not to mention that, in the long run, wages in China and other low-income countries will go up with higher productivity, further equalizing standards of living among nations when the whole world is taken into account.

 

[pgtruesdell]

I am extremely conservative in fact, and have mainly supported Republican values in the US such as Ron Paul (having an American Democrat wife); to call me a "socialist" is to offend me - but this doesn't mean that the State shouldn't do the bare minimum to keep people alive.

Besides, the fact that you have almost 40 MILLION Americans without any access to health care is astounding, to say the least. If the State (or provinces) cannot provide for that, who can? I would assume Pentagon expenses are fine by you, right? Or should I pay for police services as well?

As for the world economy "in the crapper", I can't say that for Brazil - we actually finance your own crap in the US with our forex reserves, just as China. The only reason the US is not even deeper in a black hole right now is because you still have the USD as a reserve currency. Once this is superseded by the renminbi and others, you will see what a crisis is like, Republican president or not.

You claim to be conservative but yet you support government backed healthcare, mandated vacation days, mandated work hours? I am not supporting US policy, we are on the completely wrong track. My argument is for the America that we used to be not what we are today.

Do you honestly think that the government has to provide healthcare for people to stay alive? If so then you are insane. How did people stay alive before 1965... I wonder.

This mentality that government is ALWAYS there to save you enrages me. We are all doomed if we don't change our paths.

 

[cwt1nospam]

You don't get it do you. These people are earning twice what the average person in there homeland does. Who cares what it is in US currency.

If everyone in the US made say..... 100k a year. And a company was hiring thousands if workers at 200k a year. How many people do you think would be beating down the doors to get a job there?

Oh, I get that. What you don't get is that their pay isn't due to a free market. It's manipulated by the Chinese government in many ways, not the least of which is rigging their currency. So you go ahead and keep dreaming that you're in favor of a "free-market" if you like. I'll recognize that you're really encouraging a system where the people who make the electronics (not just Apple's), clothing, toys, etc. that you buy can't afford to buy them!