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This is the reason the world's economy is in the crapper right now. People feel entitled to benefits that they have not earned and feel that they should have more and more for doing less work. I may be off a bit about a few facts but they still hold for the most part. If you don't earn it you don't deserve it.

Your own comparisons to europe are exactly my point. You all just love your socialism....

You're talking about meritocracy. Your argument would be true if every people were born in the same conditions. Thus, everyone would have equitable chances of being well succeeded in life. This is unfortunately not true.

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You claim to be conservative but yet you support government backed healthcare, mandated vacation days, mandated work hours? I am not supporting US policy, we are on the completely wrong track. My argument is for the America that we used to be not what we are today.

Do you honestly think that the government has to provide healthcare for people to stay alive? If so then you are insane. How did people stay alive before 1965... I wonder.

This mentality that government is ALWAYS there to save you enrages me. We are all doomed if we don't change our paths.

So are you an anarchist?
 
Really? REALLY? I'm embarrassed to be a member of a forum with so many ignorant people. We aren't simply "imposing Western culture". We are attempting to put a stop to the exploitation of extremely poor people who literally eat, sleep, and work in their master's home - Foxconn. How you all can act like working these employees to death is better than a $3 price increase in your iProduct is sickening.

I also think MacRumors (ARN!) should be ashamed of themselves. I think I've read the last "spin room" article that I can stomach here. The Foxconn employee isn't worried about "reduced overtime", he is worried about a loss of income-- a loss that, if you believe Foxconn (which obviously MR does), isn't going to happen anyway. The fact that he doesn't know Foxconn will augment his pay to offset the loss of working hours isn't unexpected-- he probably isn't getting the latest news bulletins like those of us who have the leisure to be on the Internet throughout the day. So his lack of knowledge about his own pay is hardly front page news-- unless it's purpose is to place Apple in a unconditional favorable light (a obnoxiously recurring theme here).

In case you are interested in the history, this forum went downhill once iEverything started dominating popular culture. People signed up in droves, forgetting they either hated Apple or completely ignored it before turning into current Apple zealots. Arn quit practicing medicine and focused on shepherding the masses to articles like this. Comments are often posted without thought, care, or concern. I guess it's society in general? Kind of like a delayed reaction to the current "standard" discourse of American politics? I guess the symptoms are obvious, but the cause may remain a mystery.

There are other Apple-related web sites that don't pander to the Foxconn loving/union hating crowd that seems to have amassed here. It's time to switch brands. Peace out, folks.

Oh for God's sake, they want to work as many hours as possible if that's what it takes. Either way, they don't want to have their salaries cut. These people are killing themselves to get this job and work as much as they can and still get a decent night's sleep. It's important they not be exploited but it's also important to listen to what they think too; no doubt they didn't know yet about their pay raises, but I'll wager even with the pay raises they'll want to work lots of overtime.

And your comments about sheep, the masses and the like are really just nonsense. Quit looking back with rose-tinted glasses to a golden age of yore that never existed. Really, your negativity is quite irrational.
 
Please let us know when you guys get there! We'd all love to know how great you feel about your new pay rates.

USA doesn't need immigration control anymore, working there became worse than in China. So, open the borders with Mexico and exempt foreign people from getting a green card.
 
But the whole point was to "help" the workers in the first place. If they're not happy with the changes, who are we to ram them down their throats?

Typical "we know what's best for you" philosophy that both political sides in America espouse lately.

In this situation I am with you. Let them work if they want. Seems like they have over adjusted.
 
In this situation I am with you. Let them work if they want. Seems like they have over adjusted.
Or... these workers are not aware of the pay changes to ensure they don't make less. Seems likely given that they can't afford access to the internet.

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Umm, how about blaming it on the almighty righteous, LEFT WING Americans. Don't lump us all together, please.
Right, because you believe in a Free Market where Corporations and the Chinese Government make the rules and everyone else (including Chinese workers and the entire U.S.) suffers.
 
You claim to be conservative but yet you support government backed healthcare, mandated vacation days, mandated work hours? I am not supporting US policy, we are on the completely wrong track. My argument is for the America that we used to be not what we are today.

Do you honestly think that the government has to provide healthcare for people to stay alive? If so then you are insane. How did people stay alive before 1965... I wonder.

This mentality that government is ALWAYS there to save you enrages me. We are all doomed if we don't change our paths.

The problem with these "conservative Americans" driven by individualistic "puritan/calvinistic" values is that if a person is not successful for whatever reason, it's because he/she is not "working hard enough" or worse, "not chosen by God".

Despite being a conservative person myself, I STRONGLY oppose the opinion that a State should simply do nothing when it comes to basic tasks such as public health and security or publicly-strategic goods including infrastructure - I defend a Minimalistic State, not an Absent State. Governments are there for a reason, and one of the most important reasons is to ensure that the fabric of society is not destroyed by such rabid individualism in the first place.

Ironically, the mentality you cry about is the same mentality that saved the US after the Great Depression, with your great "socialist" president Roosevelt and his public works initiative. Once more, that is not to say the State should intervene in every possible aspect of our routine lives: but to ensure that the taxes you pay revert back in the form of good roads, military protection and, YES, BASIC health care.

To support anything against this is to be an ANARCHIST, or someone who opposes any form of established governance framework. So if you are ever faced with unemployment (a pretty easy example nowadays in the US), you CANNOT presume that you deserve such a fate and that the State is not supposed to at least ensure you have access to a doctor when push comes to shove.

I may also note that not even Ron Paul supports what you say, since his opposition to mandated health care is grounded on constitutional factors, not ideological ones (i.e., that no one deserves a public health service).

As for mandated vacation days or hours, this comes from a basic legal tenet called "hypossuficiency", which in its turn resulted from the horrendous abuses perpetrated in the UK during the Industrial Revolution (where workers were treated as animals, similarly to what YOU criticize about China today)...

In other words, just a basic framework to guarantee basic human rights to people...or would you say that the right to a minimum period of rest is also abusive? Is it good to be a slave in America?
 
How about "don't" then. It's none of your business how long someone else works if it's their choice.

Not my point at all. But every time Foxconn is brought up all you hear are the negatives about how the employees work too much. Now they're having to work less, and now they're claiming. Seems like no one wants to get on their level to find out what they want.
 
Again, most peoples are missing the points of these kinds of regulation.

Lets use two different examples.

Lets say we make it legal so that any policemen at any time can enter your home just because he feels like it so that he can "check" if you are not doing something illegal.

It would be a clear intrusion and a very dangerous politics for our private life in the long term.

But yes you would probably find some peoples complaining "Hey, I have nothing to hide! Come any time you want! I actually feel safer this way!"

But it would still be a very dangerous politics for the public safety in general, it open the door to a system wide abuse that really wouldn't make anyone really "safe".

Another example, very similar. Lets say we consider it "legal" for employers to ask for Facebook account password of all their employee so that they can monitor them. Of course you will find peoples
who would comply because they want and need a job. They would say "It's ok for you to have it, because I need a job." But it would still be very dangerous long term for society and the value of privacy.

The issue with workers here is exactly the same. Yes some peoples don't mind having almost no free time in exchange for more money. But accepting this put pressure on all the workers and all the system, so that employers start expecting this kind of behavior and eventually you have a system where the worker class don't really have any hope of living an enriching life.
 
I'm sorry, but if that Western help is so bad, why again do you still live in the US and have not yet moved back to Asia where there is no guilty feeling middle class and where people work out their own problems? Let me guess... Life is more comfortable in the US where everything has a higher standard, isn't it?

The reason we move to America is for a better life, but we don't bend on telling the world how to live, you feel you needed to show what's best for them and your western way is the only way. So self righteous .
 
How's about we stop imposing Western culture?

This has NOTHING to do with imposing anything. Other than that the company follow the labor laws of their own country. Which prohibit more than 36 hours of OT work a month.

And one worker claiming to speak for 'lots of us' is hardly a major concern. She could be referring to herself and only a dozen other people, out of millions that work for the company. And yet the blogs go for the hit foddering hyperbole. Mike Daisey couldn't have done it better.

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Indeed. They don't need it to survive, they need it for their FAMILIES to survive. They're making more money than they'd know what to do with if it was just for themselves.

What's interesting is that THIS fact of life is likely why most of the folks that tried to jump (or did) took that action. Particularly in the days when Foxconn would pay up to a years salary in death benefits no matter the cause of death. NOT that the working conditions sucked so much, despite what the blogs etc tried to claim.
 
I'm sorry, but if that Western help is so bad, why again do you still live in the US and have not yet moved back to Asia where there is no guilty feeling middle class and where people work out their own problems? Let me guess... Life is more comfortable in the US where everything has a higher standard, isn't it?

:D
:cool:: Indeed! Like millions withOut proper healthCare like in China?
:rolleyes:Ç: Sooner than later Chinese society will be like the USA society, not because of copying it but because it is how any rich country works. USA used to be like China is today. And still is in many corners.
:eek::!!!
 
Living Wage anyone

Reading thru some of the initial comments about how "we" are "imposing western standards" on countries not able to afford it" or how they should relax and enjoy their iPad makes me realize how people rationalize exploiting people. How could these chinese workers afford to pay a months salary for an iPad? The article was clear that Foxcomm intended to increase wages to compensate for lost hours. While their announcement may end up being a scam, that is really what is needed.

This country has lost jobs to China because American workers are competing with Chinese workers for jobs. The Chinese workers don't have the benefit of real union representation. The result is lost jobs. This trend is pervasive in US business and is resulting in all kinds of jobs being lost including scientific, computer programming and engineering jobs. Many of the new jobs being created are low level, low paying jobs.

Cheap electronics is not worth trading away a real economy with real jobs and good pay. Only those with vested interests in exploiting people and fools can say it is bad that working conditions get better for working people anywhere.

There is a class war going on, its been going on since the beginning of this country. It started here with the theft of land and genocide of native people, continued with slavery of poor whites then blacks. After hundreds of years of struggle, finally unions begin to protect our rights only to be crushed and our jobs exported. Apple is just like any other corporation. It likes good PR and the FOXCOMM problem is bad PR. They are trying to sweep it away with their fake "Fair Labor Association", a computer industry front, but Apple is culpable for the deaths, the poisonings and bad working conditions and poor wages. We need to increase the pressure on Apple and other electronics companies formerly based in the US. Personally I think we need import taxes on all manufactured goods. Free trade is baloney, just an excuse for rich businessmen to make bundles of money. We need fair trade.

Brazil was right to impose taxes on iphones so they cost over $1000 US. They told Apple if they want cheaper phones, to make them in Brazil. If that were the case in the US, Apple might come back to the US to produce products.
 
I don't know what you alleged "Conservatives" are complaining about. This is a company responding to market conditions, not more regulations. Or do you only like the "Free Market" when it works in a large Corporation's favor?
 
Wow, so they make $634 a month when working 60 hours of OT a month. If their normal work hours are 40 hours a week. That equals 220 hours a month of actual time worked. So they make less than $3 an hour? :(

And? What is their cost of living? If it is well below $3 a hour then what is the issue. Why should they have to make the same $8 a hour minimum wage that US workers make if their cost of living isn't as high as in the US.

Consider, for example, that a Foxconn worker can rent a bed in the dorms for $17 a month. That's less than one day's pay. They can eat in the cafeteria for something like $4 a day total. Their uniforms cost them something like $5 a month. Everything else they make is money in their pockets. So in light of these details how is $3 a hour really that awful.

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Where did the recent suicide story about Foxconn Microsoft workers go? Where's the investigation of how other phones are made? Buried, neglected or forgotten by "journalists," because the truth doesn't sell as many ads.

Bingo.
 
I know they travel there just for that - work and earn money, but 60 hours of overtime? Assume you have one day off

These people go there to earn money so assuming a day off is a bad assumption.

and overtime is on top of a 40 hour that's 100 hours/6 days = 16 hours 40 minutes each day of work!

Also it's 60 hours of OT a month so it's 15 a week for a total of 55 hours a week, not 100.

even if we stick with your bad assumption that's 9.2 hours of work a day across 6 days.

Okay, give them 1 minute each day for lovemaking

Bad assumption to factor in any notion that these generally single people are bothering with any kind of relationship. Not to mention that you gave them a day off. They could be saving up the bonking and the talking to the family for that day. Certainly those would be leisure activities appropriate for your day of not working.

Not to mention that again your math is totally wrong.

9 hours of work. An hour each meal plus another hour of potty breaks and an hour to cover getting between work and 'home' and you are only up to 13 hours. That leaves 11 hours for showering, sleeping etc. AND a whole day off to do whatever you want.

that really isn't so hideous, even with the OT being way over what the law allows. double that amount of OT doesn't make for a totally over the top situation either.
 
The point is being missed completely.

China has higher working hour standards BY LAW than the USA. In the USA there is no limit even close to 40 hours plus no more than 3hours a day without exceeding 35hours a month.

Foxconn is only now agreeing to follow the law. But no one in China follows this law because factories need to produce and workers want to work.

Apple, a public company, must obey the law.

This is not Apples fault at all.
 
Aren't these the same workers that are threatening suicide and saying the working conditions are bad?

Some Microsoft factory workers said that. In a group of about 100.

but at no time has anyone ever jumped saying they were doing it because conditions at an Apple factory were that bad.

In fact, Foxconn saw a huge decrease in jumpers after they stopped giving out death benefits for suicides, which strongly points to the stress of supporting families back home as a major factor in the attempts.

Remember these people aren't slaves, if the conditions were that bad they could just quit.
 
Really? REALLY? I'm embarrassed to be a member of a forum with so many ignorant people. We aren't simply "imposing Western culture". We are attempting to put a stop to the exploitation of extremely poor people who literally eat, sleep, and work in their master's home - Foxconn. How you all can act like working these employees to death is better than a $3 price increase in your iProduct is sickening.

I also think MacRumors (ARN!) should be ashamed of themselves. I think I've read the last "spin room" article that I can stomach here. The Foxconn employee isn't worried about "reduced overtime", he is worried about a loss of income-- a loss that, if you believe Foxconn (which obviously MR does), isn't going to happen anyway. The fact that he doesn't know Foxconn will augment his pay to offset the loss of working hours isn't unexpected-- he probably isn't getting the latest news bulletins like those of us who have the leisure to be on the Internet throughout the day. So his lack of knowledge about his own pay is hardly front page news-- unless it's purpose is to place Apple in a unconditional favorable light (a obnoxiously recurring theme here).

In case you are interested in the history, this forum went downhill once iEverything started dominating popular culture. People signed up in droves, forgetting they either hated Apple or completely ignored it before turning into current Apple zealots. Arn quit practicing medicine and focused on shepherding the masses to articles like this. Comments are often posted without thought, care, or concern. I guess it's society in general? Kind of like a delayed reaction to the current "standard" discourse of American politics? I guess the symptoms are obvious, but the cause may remain a mystery.

There are other Apple-related web sites that don't pander to the Foxconn loving/union hating crowd that seems to have amassed here. It's time to switch brands. Peace out, folks.

I completely agree with your sentiments about this forum. People don't even bother staying informed, and then come on here and spew non-sense.

For instance, how many times did I post in this thread that Foxconn agreed to raise salaries to offset less OT hours...a point that was made in the article posted just before this one. And yet you still have idiots that flock in here in droves to rant about how Foxconn workers shouldn't be have their "salaries" cut. THEY ARE NOT BEING CUT, not to mention they are not even salary workers to begin with. RTFA people.
 
Had to throw in the the 'liberals' stab didn't you. Speaks volumes about your selfish uneducated position.
Actually quite educated. I just believe in a free society, not a society where the government is going to tell me how long I can work and how much money I can make. If those workers want to work more and provide a better life for their family, why should the government tell them they cannot?
 
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