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If you need overtime to survive you have the wrong job or are living above your means.

You can't distill the issue down to those two points. What about areas where the cost of living and raising a small family can't be done on a full time salary in the only jobs available to them?

I live in NYC and know plenty of people who are not living above their means but are working a second job over their full time one. I could never make the blanket statement placing the blame on this (or depending on OT) on them.
 
Yes, exactly.

I can't argue with someone that is happy with government intervention and a Socialist/Marxist strangle on society. You sir have been brainwashed by your leaders and in return they have already won.

Yes, exactly.

I can't argue with someone that is happy with no government intervention and a Neoliberal/Protestant strangle on society. You sir have been brainwashed by your leaders and in return they have already won.

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I don't want to start a religion war. I'm atheist... I said protestant as work/economic moral rather than critisizing any protestant religion. Maybe I'd better change "protestant" to "smithsonian".
 
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Yes, exactly.

I can't argue with someone that is happy with no government intervention and a Neoliberal/Protestant strangle on society. You sir have been brainwashed by your leaders and in return they have already won.

My nation is in the direction yours is, I haven't been brainwashed I'm just using common sense. There is no way Apple could have ever become what it is today in modern USA or Brazil. It would be impossible to comply with all of today's laws, rules and regulations without a daunting amount of capital. You just don't get it.
 
Citations needed proving they voluntarily work and don't suffer any pressure for working overtime.

From the article:

"We have just been told that we can only work a maximum of 36 hours a month of overtime. I tell you, a lot of us are unhappy with this. We think that 60 hours of overtime a month would be reasonable and that 36 hours would be too little," she added. Chen said she now earned a bit over 4,000 yuan a month ($634).
 
They aren't complaining about how much overtime they get, they are complaining about how much they get paid final.

Pay these people 1500$ a month, Apple should shrink its profits to acomodate the increase in salary, and then watch how happy those workers get!

Don't you get it, these people want to earn as much as possible to build up their savings. Even if you give them a 300% raise, they still want to work 60hrs because they want to make lots of $$$ and have a taste of the American dream.

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Apple is in the crossfire between the battle of FLA vs Foxconn employees.
 
U.S. - exporting our norms to societies not yet able to afford it.

"Not yet" or "not willing to"?

It's time we in western countries (and I mean "west" as in EVERY country having overwhelmingly western values, not just the rich ones) stopped trying to impose our paradigms on others with totally different principles, especially those in Africa and Asia.

It's clear that Asians are much more disciplined and hierarchy-oriented than the "freedom-loving" peoples of the west...

And if one wishes to talk of "sweatshops", I can absolutely assure that US employees rank far below most countries of the world in terms of employee rights and benefits. They may earn more but can be kicked any time of the day - that's all.
 
Working such long hours isn't sustainable...but it is only the very young who can sustain 60 hours/mo. overtime.


I was referring to compensation for the difference in pay basically. No human being should spent 12+ hours a day doing this, thats not living.

In my regular job I work 10 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, and have for 25 years. I have a great life and family. Also, you might want to talk to a farmer, who would laugh at your notions of how "working such long hours isn't sustainable" and "12+ hours...that's not living". Such sheltered lives you lead.
 
They should get paid more. Their one month salary can't even pay for a high-end Apple product. *sad face*
 
Lots of people work > 40 hours per week

My Chinese parents have always worked 60-80 hours per week since immigrating to Canada in the 50's. In fact, they worked weekends too. As a physician, you won't find me on the golf course, as I'll either be working or enjoying my kids in their activities. I've recently reduced my work week from 70 to 50 hours and I feel like I'm on holidays. Working harder and longer hours is not always exploitation (or even making more $)....as I teach my kids, sometimes it's work ethic. Especially in the China of today, good companies with good benefits attract workers and vice versa (supply and demand as applies to working conditions). Workers actually want to work more...imagine that! Maybe we should butt out of our arm chair righteousness, focus on real social issues instead of the good efforts of good companies and let the world get on with being productive.
 
Here in Brazil, worker's laws are very rigid but rarely followed by the companies. Usually they use subterfuges to bypass these regulations, e.g. forcing people to open an "individual company". This way, a worker is not a formal worker, but a 3rd-party service provider. Only the biggest companies suffer regular inspections by authorities.

German law has an overriding principle that facts override contracts. So in this case if the worker works from nine to five, and takes orders from the boss, he isn't self employed no matter what contracts they have.


They should get paid more. Their one month salary can't even pay for a high-end Apple product. *sad face*

Good idea. Ferrari workers will be happy. Boeing workers even more so.
 
Of course she wants to keep 60 hours OT instead of 36 hours... because it could mean a pay cut of $60 / month.

Probably nothing for most of us, but still a lot for someone who gets less than $650 / month... so almost 10% cut.

We probably don't realize, in comparison of the rest of China, Foxconn is almost paying double of what is available on other jobs. For a lot of workers it's a good way to cash out a lot of money to help their family, that are even poorer.

In comparison, if tomorrow a large tech company will open in US soil and would pay $100K or $150K a year for hundred of thousands of non-qualified workers... wouldn't you be happy to work there instead to flip burgers? And wouldn't you be happy to get as much over time as you can get... even if you need to work like crazy for 4, 5 or even 10 years, you'd make more than you could do in 30 years with another job...

So I'm sure you'd react just like her if over time would be reduce and you'd loose $10K or $15K...
 
Really... us in the west who are used to wealth tend to embrace socialism.:rolleyes:

People who actually want to work hard for hard needed cash are not welcoming the western way of union-style thinking.
Many of us wealthy-people-of-the-west simple cannot fathom that.

Let other countrie's own economics and culture sort themselves out.

Western dominance of other human's lives are so, so, so irritating.
:mad:
 
I understand Foxconn workers. The overtime money makes a huge difference for them.
I am Brazilian with Japanese parents and I have worked in Japan for 13 years. 12~14 hours/day, 6 days/week, 28 days/month with night shifts.

I used to work for Nippon Mektron which is one of Apple's suppliers now. Their main business is making flexible printed circuits.

I could easily earn US$4000/month. Foxconn workers earns US$634/month which is totally BS. No wonder Foxconn is so profitable and its executives are making fortunes.
 
So here we westerners go, forcing our "values" on another culture. These people are doing really well comparatively speaking and may resent our meddling with their paychecks. I think it will be okay with a very Asian fix. The workers will work their prescribed shift, change coveralls and resume work under a different employment designation.

When you look at how a lot of people in China live, doing dangerous farm and industrial work, working in a clean Foxconn factory is probably a plum job. But do we in the west give a damn about the steel mill worker who doesn't have proper protective equipment? Of course not.
 
Sorry, I couldn't get your point.

Here in Brazil, worker's laws are very rigid but rarely followed by the companies. Usually they use subterfuges to bypass these regulations, e.g. forcing people to open an "individual company". This way, a worker is not a formal worker, but a 3rd-party service provider. Only the biggest companies suffer regular inspections by authorities.
.

3rd-party service provider = 'contractor' is how they say in US.

;)
 
Dumb ass American

Here is a great example of Americans asserting ourselves on other countries that obviously have differing opinions on what "too much work is." We just assume that because we, as Americans, know everything that we should make the rest of the world comply with how we do things. If people want to work let them! Its obvious that their intentions/needing the money is the driving factor. We can sit back at our 40 hour a week jobs and talk about how terrible working conditions are from over 3000 miles away but we never listen to the actual people working at these places. We are so dumb and once again should let the PEOPLE OF CHINA decide how to run their companies not use math and rules that obviously don't coincide with he work ethic of China. So dumb, so dumb America. Let other countries make decisions not tell them how we do things because last time I check our economy is booming right...
 
According to your profile you are from Brazil. You have the highest government mandated paid vacation days of any nation at 41 days and you have to take at least 20 consecutive days to qualify with the law. You also (by law) have a maximum number of working hours per week at 44 not to exceed 8 hours per day. That work week is laughable to most people in the US. Your attitude is expected knowing what country you live in.

I am Brazilian too, so it's important to respond to your uninformed diatribe...Brazil already has the highest C-level earnings of the whole world, as well as extensive mandatory employee benefits which US workers have never dreamed of having. We also have one of the most expensive employee-related costs of any country (apart from Scandinavia), which in the end is the reason why you don't many products "Made in Brazil" out there.

You may call this excessive, but at least it provides a bit of stability to those being employed instead of just allowing companies to throw people in the gutters when they are no longer wanter.

The US, on the other hand, boasts of having a "liberal" (as is non-regulated) market with close to ZERO basic benefits such as health care and mandatory severance. In other words, even if you don't want to you must work as slaves to make a living - the only difference with China is that living costs are much higher; therefore your earnings must also be higher just to cover rent and food in the US.

As for your criticism of vacations days, this is just wrong: Brazilians have 30 calendar days of statutory holidays, just like France, Finland and in line with most European standards (between 25 and 30 days). However, it's almost impossible for Brazilians to really take those 30 days/year in the private sector - most either defer them or get some cash back upon leaving. We also do NOT have the same flexibility as countries like Switzerland and others to work 80% or 60% (most Brazilian employees are either full-time or nothing).

As for a 44-hour week, what the hell would you expect when the whole Europe STILL has averages between 40 and 48 hours, with an average COLLECTIVELY-AGREED week of less than 40 hours?

Once more, the only difference between US and Chinese employees is that your earn more - legally speaking, you are even more slaves than them nonetheless.

p.s.: To draw a parallel between Brazil and Greece is an absolute joke that merits no further consideration. Brazilians are widely known for their high levels of entrepreneurship, not to mention creativity and hard work despite all difficulties.

This is even more evident in the private sector (banking, legal, retail), where people work their arses off to support the growing corporate giants of today - the "lazy" Brazilians that you talk about today own(ed) or manage(d) Burger King, Embraer, BankBoston, Nissan/Peugeot, ABB, Inbev, Vale and Petrobrás; they develop world-famous apps such as Instagram; they excel at management techniques which miraculously merge US, European and even Eastern values.

Brazil is today the world's 6th biggest economy, having sharply reduced inequality over the last 15 years and with record levels of employment. Greece's only luck with its pea-sized economy is to be located in Europe - otherwise, they would be as developed as Tchad.
 
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wow, 4000 rmb/mo working about 55+ hours a week.

they could move to Shanghai and make about 14,000rmb/mo teaching English 20-25 hours a week. they just need to learn English and look like a white person. the english part isn't that important. i was with a belgian guy who was offered a job walking down a street. he told them his english wasn't very good but they didn't seem to care about that.
 
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I posted this yesterday when the story broke. The issue then was FORCED overtime. If they want to work OT, then that is entirely different and why should anyone - other than Foxconn - tell them otherwise.

It is not always a case of living beyond their means. It could be for savings, or providing for extended family, or anything else that is not a shortsighted luxury.

I was poo-pooed for this yesterday and yet it came to be in today's story.
 
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Oh, just throwing my comment in that no one cares about too. ;)
 
The issue here is forced overtime.

If they want to work overtime, by all means let them.

It's when you FORCE them to work overtime "or we'll find someone else!" that it becomes a problem. Overtime should be optional.

That's the key point people are missing. Let them work as much as they want! But don't force them.
 
German law has an overriding principle that facts override contracts. So in this case if the worker works from nine to five, and takes orders from the boss, he isn't self employed no matter what contracts they have.

You are absolutely right and Brdeveloper is flat wrong.

Exactly the SAME German principle applies in Brazil and is enforced almost every day by labor courts over there.

If there is an established link of subordination and "boss orders", the contractor is equated with an ordinary employee so that the company is almost always ordered to indemnify him.
 
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