FTC Looking Into Impact of Apple's Sales Agreement With Amazon on Independent Resellers

[UnusedLoginID]

They can still sell their ware on eBay and Craig’s list. At least you know what to expect then.
I think the issue is that these refurbishers and resellers were using the Amazon brand - and the fact Amazon is an authorized reseller - to advertise directly or indirectly that their products are genuine. Not so fast!

 

[cube]

You're not, but this article isn't about people just selling used computers. They can do that on Facebook, Craigslist, eBay or whatever they want. But if you're claiming to sell properly refurbished products (which, by the way come with warranties) using parts certified to work by Apple instead of knock off trash, then you need to be authorized. It's no different from a car dealer selling a "Certified Pre-Owned" automobile. If they want to say that, they need to get the blessing of the manufacturer and prove they are using legit parts and maintained it correctly for the protection of the new owner. Otherwise, anyone could just patch up a totaled car, say it's the same, and then sell it.

If you want to trade as refurbed, legit Apple stuff, then comply with the longstanding T&Cs. If you can't do that, sell something else that is less restrictive. Apple doesn't have to let you trade on their name if you aren't willing to certify that your business is legitimate.

You don't need anybody's permission to sell refurbs. They would just not be certified.

 

[nwcs]

I wouldn’t buy anything refurbished on Amazon. Too many instances of things being claimed to be refurbished that are just random returned crap. I don’t see any issue with people selling used Apple products as long as it’s clearly labeled as used. The problem is the same as any other used: the owner will always say it’s better than it is.

I don’t see how this is antitrust but then again the term has been abused and repurposed so often that maybe it meets the popular culture definition.

Final thought: Amazon sells a lot of crap (mismarked, misleading, downright fraudulent) and takes no responsibility for any of it. That should be addressed first.

 

[cube]

I wouldn’t buy anything refurbished on Amazon. Too many instances of things being claimed to be refurbished that are just random returned crap. I don’t see any issue with people selling used Apple products as long as it’s clearly labeled as used. The problem is the same as any other used: the owner will always say it’s better than it is.

I don’t see how this is antitrust but then again the term has been abused and repurposed so often that maybe it meets the popular culture definition.

Final thought: Amazon sells a lot of crap (mismarked, misleading, downright fraudulent) and takes no responsibility for any of it. That should be addressed first.

It is not only that flips would be mislabeled as refurbished (do not need to be certified), but that overcharging is common.

 

[mentaluproar]

The price of pushing the counterfeiters out.

When Amazon was full of them, pushing the "legit" small business resellers out, people wanted Apple to do something.

What were they supposed to do? Hand-vetting every single Amazon listing?

"You're legit, you're legit, you're legit and you're legit. You are not. Out."

People can still sell through their individual websites. They just can't sell through Amazon.

I assume, any brick-n-mortar mall in the US probably has similar rules and you can't sue yourself into a mall, can you?

The problem is Amazon, Walmart, and stagnant wages have killed malls. If you want to do business at scale, it needs to be online, and Amazon is the biggest in the US by far. You can sell somewhere else, but Amazon is so big that excluding others puts them at an unfair disadvantage. I understand what you are saying, but the market isn't diverse enough for that approach to work anymore.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Apple should be sued for antitrust. Before I was able to sell used Macbooks on Amazon with no problems. Now I can't since I don't meet the volume requirements. There is no concern about counterfeit Macbooks on Amazon as it would be a very difficult product to counterfeit. This is pure greed on Apple's part.

That is not grounds for a lawsuit.

 

[Kaibelf]

You don't need anybody's permission to sell refurbs. They would just not be certified.

But if you're going to sell refurbs as an authorized reseller, then you can't also have some rando using your reseller storefront to move NON-certified gear. Amazon chose to sign on to Apple's terms in order to become a direct reseller themselves, which is why these non-certified entities need to be off their storefront. A good example would be why Best Buy is now able to repair Apple products, but they can't also have a kiosk in their stores offering unauthorized repairs by some third party. It would violate the contract that put the new products on their shelves in the first place.

Essentially, Amazon (like so many times in the past), moved from being a facilitator to becoming a direct competitor. Their whole Amazon Essentials brand is built that way, and is a graveyard for countless smaller vendors who couldn't compete because the additional value-add wasn't there.

 

[Apple_Robert]

So I’m curious, does anyone have a right to sell products on Amazon? What are the laws around this?

There is no inherent right to sell on Amazon.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

So you were not an authorized reseller then, and were not in compliance with Apple's programs. Why does Amazon owe you a spot in their store?

Well for starters, the Apple authorized reseller program legally handcuffs you. You can't buy a part you need on eBay for $5, you need to get the $50 version from Apple. Once an Apple product goes EOL, you can't buy a part for $5, $50, or $500. You're just out of luck. And if Apple catches you selling something with a replaced part that they didn't sell to you, your reseller agreement goes poof.

Then there's the part where Apple controls who you can or can't resell your product to. Apple maintains a blacklist of people or companies it won't sell to. My old company got on that list, if we went to Apple.com and placed an order, we would be rejected. As a reseller, you're expected to abide by that list as well.

Want to sell a mac with bundled software, or no software? Nope, can't do that either.

At the end of the day, this is a power play move by Apple to prevent people from selling used equipment. Less used equipment means more people buying new equipment. Which means higher prices for everyone and more money for Apple.

 

[nt5672]

Why would you need to be authorized by Apple to sell used Macs?

I think this is the key. Apple is just looking for a cheap way to stop counterfeits. Stopping legitimate used sales is crappy and, if this is the case, Apple should be slapped hard.

 

[cube]

But if you're going to sell refurbs as an authorized reseller, then you can't also have some rando using your reseller storefront to move NON-certified gear. Amazon chose to sign on to Apple's terms in order to become a direct reseller themselves, which is why these non-certified entities need to be off their storefront. A good example would be why Best Buy is now able to repair Apple products, but they can't also have a kiosk in their stores offering unauthorized repairs by some third party. It would violate the contract that put the new products on their shelves in the first place.

Essentially, Amazon (like so many times in the past), moved from being a facilitator to becoming a direct competitor. Their whole Amazon Essentials brand is built that way, and is a graveyard for countless smaller vendors who couldn't compete because the additional value-add wasn't there.

The third party is the seller, not amazon. They just need to police the listings properly.

 

[mi7chy]

Prediction is FTC finds Apple guilty of manipulating supply in a way to keep prices inflated which harm consumers.

https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-competition/about-bureau-competition

"The Federal Trade Commission's Bureau of Competition enforces the nation's antitrust laws, which form the foundation of our free market economy. The antitrust laws promote the interests of consumers; they support unfettered markets and result in lower prices and more choices.

The Federal Trade Commission Act and the Clayton Act, both passed by Congress in 1914, give the Commission authority to enforce the antitrust laws. These laws prohibit anticompetitive mergers and business practices that seek to prevent hard-driving competition, such as monopolistic conduct, attempts to monopolize, and conspiracies in restraint of trade."

 

[Kaibelf]

Well for starters, the Apple authorized reseller program legally handcuffs you. You can't buy a part you need on eBay for $5, you need to get the $50 version from Apple. Once an Apple product goes EOL, you can't buy a part for $5, $50, or $500. You're just out of luck. And if Apple catches you selling something with a replaced part that they didn't sell to you, your reseller agreement goes poof.

Then there's the part where Apple controls who you can or can't resell your product to. Apple maintains a blacklist of people or companies it won't sell to. My old company got on that list, if we went to Apple.com and placed an order, we would be rejected. As a reseller, you're expected to abide by that list as well.

Want to sell a mac with bundled software, or no software? Nope, can't do that either.

At the end of the day, this is a power play move by Apple to prevent people from selling used equipment. Less used equipment means more people buying new equipment. Which means higher prices for everyone and more money for Apple.

So basically, you're upset that in order to trade on THEIR name as an AUTHORIZED repair shop, you can't use cheap parts that may or may not be dependable. And then you're also upset that if you violate a business contract that YOU VOLUNTARILY SIGN and GET CAUGHT doing something against that contract, you have consequences.

Why did your old customer get on Apple's do-not-sell list? Were they committing fraud? I've seen a few companies end on up those lists over the years, and in EVERY case they were buying products in volume to secret move to other countries or sell into education, again, directly in violation with a reseller agreement if not EXPORT LAW. And given that, why were you trying to be a part of that? Is also a HUGE part of the reseller agreement that you will not help someone who has been busted for fraud by Apple skirt their punishment. I'm sorry, but it sounds like all of your objections are because you are trying to avoid running an above-board operation.

How about instead of complaining about legal handcuffs, you instead get on the phone, find LEGITIMATE customers, and work harder to sell more and meet some volume goals. Apple works with resellers when they can't hit some milestones as long as you put in the effort and have a plan to get to where you need to. Again, I know this because I saw it with my own eyes.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

So basically, you're upset that in order to trade on THEIR name as an AUTHORIZED repair shop, you can't use cheap parts that may or may not be dependable. And then you're also upset that if you violate a business contract that YOU VOLUNTARILY SIGN and GET CAUGHT doing something against that contract, you have consequences.

Why did your old customer get on Apple's do-not-sell list? Were they committing fraud? I've seen a few companies end on up those lists over the years, and in EVERY case they were buying products in volume to secret move to other countries or sell into education, again, directly in violation with a reseller agreement if not EXPORT LAW. And given that, why were you trying to be a part of that? Is also a HUGE part of the reseller agreement that you will not help someone who has been busted for fraud by Apple skirt their punishment. I'm sorry, but it sounds like all of your objections are because you are trying to avoid running an above-board operation.

How about instead of complaining about legal handcuffs, you instead get on the phone, find LEGITIMATE customers, and work harder to sell more and meet some volume goals. Apple works with resellers when they can't hit some milestones as long as you put in the effort and have a plan to get to where you need to. Again, I know this because I saw it with my own eyes.

No, actually we were (probably still are, I haven't worked there in a while) a milti-million dollar company who occasionally used Apple's hardware in areas that were customer visible, due to it looking nicer than competitors - Dell, HP, etc. Our contracts were with universities and government orgs. I think we had a military contract or two at one point... Hardly in violation of export law.

Regarding using "crap" products. That may be, but simply taking a working fan from a broken mac, and putting it into a different mac, would be in violation of the agreement. I agree that there's no reason to call a franken-mac a certified mac, or even pretend that it is, but there's no reason to outright ban them either. For products not sold through Amazon, it becomes an Buyer/Seller issue, where Amazon will simply make the buyer take the item back if it doesn't work.

 

[Cosmosent]

Apple's Upper Mgmt better wise up soon, OR they are sunk !

 

[fhall1]

So if I refurbish my Ford or Toyota I can't sell it unless Big Auto gives me the OK?

I can only sell my used car if I do $2.5 mil in auto sales? That's insane.

That's not a valid comparison argument at all. Of course you can sell your refurbed Ford or Toyota, but not at a place advertising "Certified, pre-owned" Fords or Toyotas. Stick them on your lawn with a 4 Sale sign on them.

 

[JustSomeInfo]

Can't wait for the next headline.. Apple and Amazon can't ________ because the ________ says so. Enter whatever product and government agency in those blanks.

Ooh, I love MadLibs.
Apple and Amazon can't fart because the PTA says so.

 

[cocky jeremy]

It was reported sellers have moved over to Walmart, eBay or Etsy.

So where’s the antitrust issue? Amazon is not the only online marketplace and sellers have many choices where to sell their goods.

There isn't one. People just like to whine and complain.

 

[GeoStructural]

I personally try to use amazon as much as possible for a few reasons; Their return policies are fantastic, some stuff even arrives within 24-hours, and I get 5% pack on purchases with my Amazon visa.

I also love Amazon, I don’t get the hate, the “bad quality” narrative is stupid as you can clearly see the vendor, reviews, etc. I have bought essentials for a fraction of the price and the return policy is fantastic.

Even when you choose “get it later and get $5 off” your product arrives the next day.

 

[Naraxus]

Good. As well they should and I hope Apple is fined for this nonsense

 

[mannyvel]

Anti-competitive by definition.

 

[JGIGS]

So if I refurbish my Ford or Toyota I can't sell it unless Big Auto gives me the OK?

I can only sell my used car if I do $2.5 mil in auto sales? That's insane.

Who sells car as refurbished? It would be used car still. "Apples" and Oranges. But if your getting picky then fine Apple should be able to restrict who's allowed to sell there product as new at the very least. It's their brand.

 

[mikethemartian]

And someone would buy a high tech device from "Charlie's refurbs"? comes with a spoken guarantee you can never hear, and we only use authentic (hmmmmahhah) parts.

Sorry, I wouldn't even buy a refurbed Samsung that was not from a certified reseller. There are things like warranties, part authentication, expertise in assembly, support, business continuity. should be a non-issue

Hey I bought my heart pacemaker from Charlie’s Refurbs! He has crazy insane deals!

 

[timmyyak]

Your source for that information?

He's macfacts, duh! /s

 

[4jasontv]

Apple & Amazon: worldwide sellers. B&H: no. A tip: there's life beyond US borders.

Non-US customers should not be buying items labeled for sale in the US. Are you saying there are no authorized resellers outside of the US?