Fundamental Misunderstanding what AVP is

[Abazigal]

I guess what I meant was to understand the choices behind making AVP, bit like when they needed to make the iPhone.

The thing about glasses is that the form factor is already socially acceptable, and just like the Apple Watch, I don't really need to give up another device to integrate them into my life. Just as I replace my existing "dumb watch" with an apple watch, I can easily replace my existing pair of glasses with Apple Glasses.

There's this video on the grand theory of Apple which I have occasionally referenced here. One line that struck me - the job of the Apple Watch is so you don't need to pick up your phone as often (t=2.40). If you ask me what device would succeed the smartphone - it would be a device which I don't even need to hold up. Which is wearables (aka smart glasses).

It's hard to look at the Vision Pro and not see where Apple is headed - glasses, which IMO, is the ideal convergence of AR and AI. The tech is clearly still a long way off, so I guess I can understand why Apple has chosen to go with a premium offering like the vision pro where the key selling point is immersion. A "Vision Air" might give up light seals and immersion in exchange for portability. It could even be like the current AirPods product paradigm where you have the bulkier vision pro for use at home and the lighter "Vision Air" for use outdoors. Will it tether to your iPhone or still run its own OS? Who knows.

This is also why I feel that people claiming that Apple is behind on AI fundamentally don't get it. Apple may not be first to the party with AI, but they will get there eventually, with their entire ecosystem in tow. And unless a company is ready to invest in building an ecosystem to rival the App Store, then all they are doing is releasing early technology previews which Apple will either eventually acquire or adapt into their own product roadmap. They just don't stand a chance.

Does that make it fair or reasonable? I am not here to debate that. One thing I am certain though - this is Apple laying the long term foundation to eventually disrupt the smartphone themselves. They are just in no hurry because the iPhone is still insanely popular and profitable, but Apple will get there eventually, and I really don't think there is anything that anybody can do about it.

PS - Good lord, the safari bug where text I type in this forum keep getting replaced with text I have already typed seems to be getting worse by the day. I have had to edit this post so many times.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Odd concept, I know, but has it ever crossed your mind that enviable profits and market share are not Apple’s goals — but are actually the market rewarding Tim Cook’s Apple for doing important and difficult things not only well, but significantly better than others?

That isn’t how the markets work.

 

[Surf Monkey]

The thing about glasses is that the form factor is already socially acceptable, and just like the Apple Watch, I don't really need to give up another device to integrate them into my life. Just as I replace my existing "dumb watch" with an apple watch, I can easily replace my existing pair of glasses with Apple Glasses.

There's this video on the grand theory of Apple which I have occasionally referenced here. One line that struck me - the job of the Apple Watch is so you don't need to pick up your phone as often (t=2.40). If you ask me what device would succeed the smartphone - it would be a device which I don't even need to hold up. Which is wearables (aka smart glasses).

It's hard to look at the Vision Pro and not see where Apple is headed - glasses, which IMO, is the ideal convergence of AR and AI. The tech is clearly still a long way off, so I guess I can understand why Apple has chosen to go with a premium offering like the vision pro where the key selling point is immersion. A "Vision Air" might give up light seals and immersion in exchange for portability. It could even be like the current AirPods product paradigm where you have the bulkier vision pro for use at home and the lighter "Vision Air" for use outdoors. Will it tether to your iPhone or still run its own OS? Who knows.

This is also why I feel that people claiming that Apple is behind on AI fundamentally don't get it. Apple may not be first to the party with AI, but they will get there eventually, with their entire ecosystem in tow. And unless a company is ready to invest in building an ecosystem to rival the App Store, then all they are doing is releasing early technology previews which Apple will either eventually acquire or adapt into their own product roadmap. They just don't stand a chance.

Does that make it fair or reasonable? I am not here to debate that. One thing I am certain though - this is Apple laying the long term foundation to eventually disrupt the smartphone themselves. They are just in no hurry because the iPhone is still insanely popular and profitable, but Apple will get there eventually, and I really don't think there is anything that anybody can do about it.

PS - Good lord, the safari bug where text I type in this forum keep getting replaced with text I have already typed seems to be getting worse by the day. I have had to edit this post so many times.

This will never fit into glasses frames.

 

[G5isAlive]

I was actually thinking the VP may let me read in a more ergonomic position than my iPad or iPhone, which I have to twist my neck down to look at. A computer monitor on a desk, if positioned at the right height, lets me keep my head upright while reading, but sitting at a desk isn't relaxing. With the VP, I could read with my head up while relaxing on a sofa or in bed. Of course, the unknown is how much stress having the weight of the VP on my face puts on my neck or other parts of my body. But if the VP is comfortable enough on my face, it could actually put my massage therapist out of business.

Yes. As one that has logged over 12 hours now with an AVP, one of those sessions going for over 5 hours straight, versus the majority of the haters that wont even go to a demo, the AVP enables me to sit comfortably in a variety of ways not possible with a regular desk (though there are devices that you climb into that rotate you, your desk, and your monitors into a reclining/working position, but they cost a lot more than an AVP). The major limiting factor is not actually how you recline, but if there is enough light for the cameras to see your hands for the gestures. I haven't experienced any neck pain or headaches or face pain that the haters like to talk about. But I still like my massage therapist

 

[G5isAlive]

so what i’m gathering is if you don’t cheer and praise avp purchasers like a cheerleader fan girl

you’re a hater

Nope. Constructive criticism is always welcome. What distinguishes a hater is the plethora of negative opinions voiced as facts, obnoxious name calling, unwillingness to actually engage in real dialog, and the need to put down people that do purchases the AVP. It's all in the language and context. It's not hard to miss. But you knew this.

The reason for it still eludes me.

Anyway, like I said, I have enjoyed the comments from people that have actually used the AVP (there are free demos now) and have concerns or questions. The AVP is definitely a first gen device with rough edges. It's not for everyone. But for those that don't mind the rough edges, it can be rewarding.

 

[anthony13]

yea still don’t get it. If it was a specialty market tool for architecture and similar work, then I get it. As a device for media and the living room? Way too much of a disconnect from reality and friends for me. But I also understand I’m 40+ and maybe just old now 🤣

 

[Arran]

yea still don’t get it. If it was a specialty market tool for architecture and similar work, then I get it. As a device for media and the living room? Way too much of a disconnect from reality and friends for me. But I also understand I’m 40+ and maybe just old now 🤣

With the right software it could be a specialty tool for architecture.

Or surveying, remote medicine consultation, remote real-estate live walkthroughs, remote hardware troubleshooting, remote working for people with limited mobility (navigating via eye movements along with voice dictation may be the ultimate accessibility combination allowing severely handicapped individuals to re-enter the the workforce). Then there’s remote teaching, academic collaboration, geology, archaeology, shopping, etc.

All those minority uses will emerge when the right software applications appear - much like they did with iPad.

But right now the ads show people reclining on the sofa watching a huge TV on the ceiling - because that’s what a mass market can relate to. That‘s needed to drive enough initial interest and most importantly revenue to let the product live.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of what AVP is.

So many reviewers are making comparisons to other headsets like Oculus or PSVR. And in my ways, I don’t think that’s a relevant comparison. Sure some of the technology has parallels, but the purpose of AVP is very different.

Here’s a tangible examples of what I was doing last night. My cat was in a mood to play with me and some toys last night. I had a YouTube video playing via Juno (first party app not available yet) and placed it right next to our play area so I can see her and the video at the same time. In other adjacent areas, I had messages open to check some things and a browser in another area for an article I was reading. No monitor, no device to hold, and hands free.

Yes it’s a great media consumption device with amazing immersion. It can do a lot of things. The true power though IMO is it’s actually a computer with the ability to multitask without the constraint of one screen like an iPad. There’s a lot of improvements to be made for sure. But I think it’s an amazing gen 1, and I’m sure they will make lots of software improvements even in the next 3-6 months.

What are your thoughts?

You're not making a case for anything here, other than that it is an expensive iPad, which is exactly the understanding that everyone has, and has had for 8 months. That's what it is.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Lol once again, all of those things can be done in some form for $2500 less! Seriously, do people even look at other headsets or just think Apple invented all of this stuff?

Generally, when Apple enters a category, they do so in a way that its the first serious entry in a category that many people would even consider.

AVP is a different story altogether.

 

[Surf Monkey]

You're not making a case for anything here, other than that it is an expensive iPad, which is exactly the understanding that everyone has, and has had for 8 months. That's what it is.

Right. It’s an iPad. Strapped to your face. It weighs almost as much as an iPad Pro 12.9. On your face.

 

[Realityck]

Right. It’s an iPad. Strapped to your face. It weighs almost as much as an iPad Pro 12.9. On your face.

Todays update to the ongoing review and experience with Vision Pro has a lot of points including what you mentioned

Apple Vision Pro: Notes from the future

Our Apple Vision Pro review is in progress, but we already have plenty of thoughts.

www.macworld.com

Apple’s pathological aversion to plastic is a problem. All this metal and glass is just too heavy. It’s not just the weight (some VR headsets are heavier), it’s that it’s all on the front of your face and not well-distributed. This needs to be 200 grams lighter, at least.

Where do I put all this stuff? I quickly run out of space surrounding myself with floating windows and have to do a lot of turning and moving around if I want to be productive. Vision Pro desperately needs window management tools. In so many ways, multitasking on a Mac desktop is faster and easier.

So yes both the weight and that VisionOS resembles iPadOS in ways are areas which Apple could improve the product. Jason Cross continues to not make a quick judgment about what he likes and what are actual challenges he encounters.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Todays update to the ongoing review and experience with Vision Pro has a lot of points including what you mentioned

Apple Vision Pro: Notes from the future

Our Apple Vision Pro review is in progress, but we already have plenty of thoughts.

www.macworld.com

So yes both the weight and that VisionOS resembles iPadOS in ways are areas which Apple could improve the product. Jason Cross continues to not make a quick judgment about what he likes and what are actual challenges he encounters.

Agree. His is one of the better pieces on the Vision.

 

[Night Spring]

people claiming that Apple is behind on AI fundamentally don't get it. Apple may not be first to the party with AI, but they will get there eventually

I think people who say Apple is behind on AI are overlooking the fact that Apple is already making extensive use of AI in iOS devices and now in Vision Pro. Things like taking pictures of plants on the iPhone and the iPhone telling you what it is, the Podcast transcription feature set to be introduced in the next iOS update, VP's hand and eye tracking, the persona -- all AI. Where Apple is lagging is large language modules like chatgpt, that interact with users through natural language. But that's only one branch of AI, and it gets people's attention because they are aware of it when they interact with one. Meanwhile, Apple has tons of AI "under the hood" that most people aren't aware of.

But right now the ads show people reclining on the sofa watching a huge TV on the ceiling - because that’s what a mass market can relate to. That‘s needed to drive enough initial interest and most importantly revenue to let the product live.

Yup. Watching movies on giant screen is the kind of usage that initially wows people, but if that is all they use VP for, it will sit and collect dust in a few months. It's when people use it to do actual work that VP and other devices like it will become mainstream. When I go in for a demo, what I want to try is copy and paste, not courtside NBA or dinosaur encounter. If I can copy and paste with the VP as easily or easier than on my iPad, and it's comfortable to wear hours at a time, it's a device that can replace my iPad. If not, then it's an entertaining toy that I probably won't bother using.

 

[VisceralRealist]

I think people who say Apple is behind on AI are overlooking the fact that Apple is already making extensive use of AI in iOS devices and now in Vision Pro. Things like taking pictures of plants on the iPhone and the iPhone telling you what it is, the Podcast transcription feature set to be introduced in the next iOS update, VP's hand and eye tracking, the persona -- all AI. Where Apple is lagging is large language modules like chatgpt, that interact with users through natural language. But that's only one branch of AI, and it gets people's attention because they are aware of it when they interact with one. Meanwhile, Apple has tons of AI "under the hood" that most people aren't aware of.


Yup. Watching movies on giant screen is the kind of usage that initially wows people, but if that is all they use VP for, it will sit and collect dust in a few months. It's when people use it to do actual work that VP and other devices like it will become mainstream. When I go in for a demo, what I want to try is copy and paste, not courtside NBA or dinosaur encounter. If I can copy and paste with the VP as easily or easier than on my iPad, and it's comfortable to wear hours at a time, it's a device that can replace my iPad. If not, then it's an entertaining toy that I probably won't bother using.

100% on both points. AI is already widely used in computing, including by Apple. "AI" has just become a buzzword because of the recent popularity of LLMs and ChatGPT, so things that are AI are dismissed as not being such if they don't have that conversational ability of an LLM. But that doesn't mean Apple hasn't been using AI in its OSes. The main difference will be in seeing how Siri can be improved with the recent development in LLMs.

As for AVP, yeah, it can't just be content consumption. Neither can the iPad, for my purposes. Part of the reason I don't have an iPad is I can't see anything it could do for me personally that a MacBook can't do better. If I were a visual artist, that might be different. But for me an iPad would just be for consuming content differently and that's not enough. Any productive work I do is better done on macOS with a laptop. Most of the discourse about the AVP right now is "wow factor", but something can have "wow factor" and still sit on the shelf gathering dust after it fades. It remains to be seen whether it's a real production device or not, and not just something to use periodically to consume content in a novel way.

 

[Realityck]

Yup. Watching movies on giant screen is the kind of usage that initially wows people, but if that is all they use VP for, it will sit and collect dust in a few months. It's when people use it to do actual work that VP and other devices like it will become mainstream. When I go in for a demo, what I want to try is copy and paste, not courtside NBA or dinosaur encounter. If I can copy and paste with the VP as easily or easier than on my iPad, and it's comfortable to wear hours at a time, it's a device that can replace my iPad. If not, then it's an entertaining toy that I probably won't bother using.

There is a great write up by jumpcutking who went through the AVP demo today per his lengthy post

I will say Apple is trying to showcase this product as an entertainment product. They didn’t focus on game development and boarding some AAA titles or some cool VR experiences in games. They could find themselves being great video gaming system if they chose to support real 3-D environments, with the pro or maybe a max chip powering the immersive 3-D environments. However, they’re trying to make it seem like you need infinite displays will not being able to do a lot with the device.

I really do think some are indeed a bit fixated on the AVP being more entrainment value that Apple is emphasizing then productivity which is where most of us value more.

 

[Night Spring]

As for AVP, yeah, it can't just be content consumption. Neither can the iPad, for my purposes. Part of the reason I don't have an iPad is I can't see anything it could do for me personally that a MacBook can't do better. If I were a visual artist, that might be different. But for me an iPad would just be for consuming content differently and that's not enough. Any productive work I do is better done on macOS with a laptop.

I like having the iPad, because I do a ton of reading. Before the iPad came out, I used to read on laptops, and constantly wished I could take the keyboard off. So when the iPad first came out, I lined up to get one -- first time I lined up for a product release. And it was the best purchase I ever made. I now read on the iPad pretty much all the time while I'm awake, other than when I'm doing other activities, like eating, meeting friends, etc. I can do simple writing tasks on the iPad, but for heavy duty editing I need the desktop. That's where the VP has the potential to be better than the iPad, and even better than the desktop for me, because I could see more documents, and more of each document, at once.

Most of the discourse about the AVP right now is "wow factor", but something can have "wow factor" and still sit on the shelf gathering dust after it fades. It remains to be seen whether it's a real production device or not, and not just something to use periodically to consume content in a novel way.

Yes exactly. Most of the people evaluating the VP seems to be trying the wow features first, but it's the seemingly mundane usages that will be the real game changer.

 

[G5isAlive]

I like having the iPad, because I do a ton of reading. Before the iPad came out, I used to read on laptops, and constantly wished I could take the keyboard off. So when the iPad first came out, I lined up to get one -- first time I lined up for a product release. And it was the best purchase I ever made. I now read on the iPad pretty much all the time while I'm awake, other than when I'm doing other activities, like eating, meeting friends, etc. I can do simple writing tasks on the iPad, but for heavy duty editing I need the desktop. That's where the VP has the potential to be better than the iPad, and even better than the desktop for me, because I could see more documents, and more of each document, at once.


Yes exactly. Most of the people evaluating the VP seems to be trying the wow features first, but it's the seemingly mundane usages that will be the real game changer.

I like the iPad for all the same reasons you do. Bought Version 1. And now I have a iPad mini upstairs by the bedside because its so easy to use there, and a iPad Pro 11 inch downstairs in the TV room to play games on while watching a movie.

Having said that, as much as I love the iPad, for this weekend anyway the APV replaced it. Reading was even easier leaning back, was more intimate, and easy to find the right 'distance' for the text and keep it there. Plus, well, I enjoyed if I clicked on something I was reading, a link, the one story didnt disappear but a new window opened up and I could move it wherever I wanted. In many ways, it was an easier to use iPads (plural) hovering around me. Certainly easier to read and eat at the same time lol.

That was a good start. I also find it easier to use for answering email (with a blue tooth keyboard), watching movies obviously, 3D (duh), oddly have some issues with Music but thats likely software, but while I can use it with MS Word, I am still learning how one goes about selecting text (and deselecting). I need to train my eyes and hands better to keep out stray actions.

 

[lch6257]

Here is the two cents and long winded musings of an IT professional that supports patient care systems technical back end remotely.

Over the weekend, I realized that Apple sold us a blank slate and that is fine with me. So, I started by creating my own workflows or more correctly application flows. I found that stacking three deep in front, left and right allows for a relatively nice flow for multi tasking. I see each quadrant as a “stack” similar to ios stacks. This is a great and quite impressive start, it also helps that eye tracking control is both innovative and interesting, but there are a few quirks. For transparency, I am using zeiss inserts with 23w light seal, the thinner one,and fov is ok to me compared to my quest 3.

Basic Workflow established. It was time to go to actual work this Monday morning and this where the real eye opener begins. Software limitations at the moment on a day 3 product resulted in the need to get creative and figure a way to use three windows laptops in my new spatial computing environment. I have an M1 MacBook Air that I connected to AVP, then using airdroid web I connected multiple laptops via the browser and tabs and was able to work in 4 different work environments all within the AVP workspace Inclusiv. I had putty sessions running on all three connected windows laptops and was able to perform administrative database and environment configuration tasks. Window control this way is a bit retarded, but the fidelity and ability to literally work in three different workplace environments near simultaneous (changing tabs) was an absolutely eye popping experience and instantaneously transformative. It was also fun! This is a 1984 macintosh release moment we are living in folks. Once you start to understand what this product is and how to utilize it for both business and entertainment I don’t see how I can go backwards now.

ymmv. For a 100% remote tech jockey administrator like myself the AVP is a complete game changer with bugs and quirks and features that you just can not find anywhere else in any other product. I can have teams meetings on the moon every day now or simply in my office. The avp has the potential to be an absolute productivity beast. It’s brilliant for our IT use cases. Would bang.

 

[Night Spring]

but while I can use it with MS Word, I am still learning how one goes about selecting text (and deselecting). I need to train my eyes and hands better to keep out stray actions.

Please do let me know how that goes. Whether I can copy and paste text easily in VP is the most critical feature for me!

 

[G5isAlive]

Here is the two cents and long winded musings of an IT professional that supports patient care systems technical back end remotely.

Over the weekend, I realized that Apple sold us a blank slate and that is fine with me. So, I started by creating my own workflows or more correctly application flows. I found that stacking three deep in front, left and right allows for a relatively nice flow for multi tasking. I see each quadrant as a “stack” similar to ios stacks. This is a great and quite impressive start, it also helps that eye tracking control is both innovative and interesting, but there are a few quirks. For transparency, I am using zeiss inserts with 23w light seal, the thinner one,and fov is ok to me compared to my quest 3.

Basic Workflow established. It was time to go to actual work this Monday morning and this where the real eye opener begins. Software limitations at the moment on a day 3 product resulted in the need to get creative and figure a way to use three windows laptops in my new spatial computing environment. I have an M1 MacBook Air that I connected to AVP, then using airdroid web I connected multiple laptops via the browser and tabs and was able to work in 4 different work environments all within the AVP workspace Inclusiv. I had putty sessions running on all three connected windows laptops and was able to perform administrative database and environment configuration tasks. Window control this way is a bit retarded, but the fidelity and ability to literally work in three different workplace environments near simultaneous (changing tabs) was an absolutely eye popping experience and instantaneously transformative. It was also fun! This is a 1984 macintosh release moment we are living in folks. Once you start to understand what this product is and how to utilize it for both business and entertainment I don’t see how I can go backwards now.

ymmv. For a 100% remote tech jockey administrator like myself the AVP is a complete game changer with bugs and quirks and features that you just can not find anywhere else in any other product. I can have teams meetings on the moon every day now or simply in my office. The avp has the potential to be an absolute productivity beast. It’s brilliant for our IT use cases. Would bang.

okay color me impressed. Here I was figuring out how to download from dropbox on safari, and you are doing... putty sessions? is that like silly putty or? seriously I couldn't follow half of what you were doing, but enjoyed reading an actual use case. thank you.

btw. is 'would bang' a good or bad thing?

 

[lch6257]

okay color me impressed. Here I was figuring out how to download from dropbox on safari, and you are doing... putty sessions? is that like silly putty or? seriously I couldn't follow half of what you were doing, but enjoyed reading an actual use case. thank you.

btw. is 'would bang' a good or bad thing?

Thanks. I been in information technology a few decades now, so don’t worry about understanding. I just wanted to provide a professional use case after a few days of playing with a new $4k device That gives us a new presentation layer. It’s a fascinating device, truly.

Putty is an ssh emulator that is used primarily to talk to unix servers. To be clear, I can not yet do this natively, but directly by piggybacking to securely connected laptops. Would bang is slang meaning she’s a keeper.

 

[G5isAlive]

Putty is an ssh emulator that is used primarily to talk to unix servers. To be clear, I can not yet do this natively, but directly by piggybacking to securely connected laptops. Would bang is slang meaning she’s a keeper.

oh yes that made it clear LOL. Again, do appreciate your comments, especially with your background. I doubt I will be trying to run three computers with mine simultaneously but will try at least one tonight.

 

[AirpodsNow]

The thing about glasses is that the form factor is already socially acceptable, and just like the Apple Watch, I don't really need to give up another device to integrate them into my life. Just as I replace my existing "dumb watch" with an apple watch, I can easily replace my existing pair of glasses with Apple Glasses.

Thanks for the vid, never seen it and rather spot on.

I stumbled upon this vid, a guy randomly walking in LA and bumped into another YouTuber. He says how people didn't laugh at him with AVP, whereas the Quest was different. He did like the eyesight thing, it somehow works. It's kinda interesting.

 

[Abazigal]

Thanks for the vid, never seen it and rather spot on.

I stumbled upon this vid, a guy randomly walking in LA and bumped into another YouTuber. He says how people didn't laugh at him with AVP, whereas the Quest was different. He did like the eyesight thing, it somehow works. It's kinda interesting.

I am pretty surprised at the seemingly muted reaction to the Vision Pro being used in public. This forum made it seem like users would be treated like freaks and outcasts, but it already seems to have become publicly acceptable. Maybe it helped to have celebrities like Casey Neistat championing it.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I am pretty surprised at the seemingly muted reaction to the Vision Pro being used in public. This forum made it seem like users would be treated like freaks and outcasts, but it already seems to have become publicly acceptable. Maybe it helped to have celebrities like Casey Neistat championing it.

They did? I don’t think so.

Regardless, Casey’s video as evidence is pretty shaky. After all, he’s in NYC. There are VERY few things a person can do in NYC to make New Yorkers look up and pay any attention whatsoever. Some goofball wearing a dork helmet on the subway while gesturing at imaginary butterflies is about the most normal thing people can see there on a daily basis.

And since when is Neistat a celebrity??