Fundamental Misunderstanding what AVP is

[Allen_Wentz]

You fundamentally don’t understand that your hands were free, but you had an helmet on your head.

No. You (who does not own AVP) fail to grasp that he at that point in time benefitted by having hands free and did not care (not "fundamentally don’t understand") that he had goggles on. Duh.

Perhaps wear a headlamp to work/ride in the dark sometime and you may understand. Or wear airpods to talk hands-free on an iPhone and you may understand. Or maybe you are just a naysayer who does not want to understand.

 

[Abazigal]

I think you're misunderstanding where the frustration lies.

It is with Apple, not the buyers of AVP.

This is an enormous waste of Apple's precious R&D and dev time and resources... when a lot of us would love updates and refinements to all the other things they make that are just sort of twisting in the wind.

That has always been the unspoken cost of innovation. That sometimes, in order to usher in a new world order, you must be willing to do away with the current one. Everything has an opportunity cost.

In the very least, one can’t say that Apple is resting on their coattails and no longer innovating. They have been working on the Vision Pro for a decade, it’s amazing to see in hindsight how they have slowly but methodically laying the foundation for it (such as their TV+ content), and I can’t wait to see what comes next.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

To each their own.

Yet ignorant folks feel the need to comment ad nauseam about the product they do not intend to purchase.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

The latter

I have several friends who had been asking me about AVP and they honestly hadn't ever looked into or tried any other VR/AR device of any kind.

It makes total sense for some folks (most) to wait years for a new product to evolve to where the AVP is rather than investing time/money in the far different level of similar devices that preceded AVP. Why would I want what Meta Quest provided? It is not worth the bandwidth.

AVP also may not be worth the bandwidth (yet). That remains to be seen; but it is much, much closer.

 

[Ubuntu]

I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of what AVP is.

So many reviewers are making comparisons to other headsets like Oculus or PSVR. And in my ways, I don’t think that’s a relevant comparison. Sure some of the technology has parallels, but the purpose of AVP is very different.

Here’s a tangible examples of what I was doing last night. My cat was in a mood to play with me and some toys last night. I had a YouTube video playing via Juno (first party app not available yet) and placed it right next to our play area so I can see her and the video at the same time. In other adjacent areas, I had messages open to check some things and a browser in another area for an article I was reading. No monitor, no device to hold, and hands free.

Yes it’s a great media consumption device with amazing immersion. It can do a lot of things. The true power though IMO is it’s actually a computer with the ability to multitask without the constraint of one screen like an iPad. There’s a lot of improvements to be made for sure. But I think it’s an amazing gen 1, and I’m sure they will make lots of software improvements even in the next 3-6 months.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are my MacBook Pro and Quest 3 together (which can do all that you’ve described) cost less.

But to be less snarky, I hope you can enjoy the AVP. I just think it’s a bit silly when people (mainly Apple) try to differentiate it so much. It’s the best headset around I think, but it’s still a MR headset imo.

 

[Realityck]

Yet ignorant folks feel the need to comment ad nauseam about the product they do not intend to purchase.

While there is a lot of undeserved pessimism there is still a lot of desired pessimism.

MacWorld for example has two recent articles on the Vision Pro:

Apple Vision Pro needs a mixed-reality distortion field

Even without some obvious flaws, Apple Vision Pro is one hell of a hard sell.

www.macworld.com

Some of my concerns with Vision Pro are likely to fade in the future. There will probably be a significantly cheaper version a year or so after the Pro model, while chassis weight and battery performance are factors that only move in one direction in the tech industry. Developers can probably be depended upon to come up with an impressive library of third-party apps, and users themselves, if the Apple Watch is any precedent, may steer the product in a direction Apple wasn’t expecting, potentially helping to discover the use case that will make it essential.

The question is whether Apple is willing to support the Vision ecosystem financially for long enough to get through the growing pains: whether it will happily launch generation after generation of low-selling headsets, plowing a huge proportion of its developmental and marketing resources into the project without seeing anything like an adequate return on its investment. All for a slice of a potentially important future pie, when nobody actually knows how big the pie will be or whether the public is even hungry.

Apple Vision Pro: What is spatial computing anyway?

Apple keeps referring to its mixed-reality headset as a "spatial computer" but what does that even mean?

www.macworld.com

Apple goes to great lengths to avoid calling the Apple Vision Pro a virtual reality headset. Or augmented reality, or mixed reality, or any other “Reality” thing. We wrote a bit about what all these terms mean last year and they all apply to Apple Vision Pro, but it’s also different than other headsets.

Instead, the Vision Pro is usually referred to as a spatial computer and the act of using one as spatial computing. Is this verbiage a cynical marketing ploy to justify the sky-high price and late entry into this growing technology field? Or is spatial computing something other than virtual or augmented or mixed reality?

The answer is: it’s a little of both. By any normal human measure, Apple Vision Pro is a mixed-reality headset, with a dial to move between VR and AR views. But it does perform spatial computing, which is something of an umbrella term that incorporates most AR and VR stuff but also other things.

IMHO Apple trying to use clever marketing to make their mixed reality AVP headset stand out from previous and other headsets coming to marketplace. Such proclaiming its a Spatial Computer. There are a wide variety of usage limitations coming to light along with everything it's capable of doing. We don't know if some of that will be fixed or just acceptable as it stands? Anything new to consumers and not of the cheap side will attract accolades and barbs. There is no pleasing all techies out there.

 

[psycho78]

Yet ignorant folks feel the need to comment ad nauseam about the product they do not intend to purchase.

Its interesting too because its the same users over and over lol. For people who have 0 desire to purchase it they certainly spend a lot of time in the Vision Pro forums lol.

At the end of the day, yes there are other great headsets available cheaper (and in some cases, much cheaper)--but I have not heard from a single person who has tried one that says any of the other headsets are better, or even as good. Universally, everyone seems to say that the tech in the AVP is def ahead of anything commercially available. Now, is that price increase worth the added tech when cheaper devices can do many of the things (and many times more things) than you can currently on the Apple Vision Pro, though possibly in a worse way? That's up to the buyer.

I don't shame people who drop $100k for a car when you can buy a car that will do just as much (and sometimes more) for $50k.

I personally think the Vision Pro is an amazing piece of tech unriveled by any of the other headsets available. I have a Quest headset and this makes it look like a toy--that being said, I would also not recommend most people to buy one at $3500. The average person will not get $3500 worth of use out of it nor can the average person afford $3500 for a headset--but when a gen 2 or 3 comes out and if it reaches a price tag equivalent to a Macbook or iPad Pro I would expect these to flourish in the market.

While I dont recommend everyone buy one now I whole heartedly recommend everyone try a demo at the Apple Store.

 

[endemize]

Got mine today and I 100% agree. It’s actually good enough you don’t need to take it off. The big game changer here is how you interact with everything. It’s so intuitive. I have a meta quest 3 and there just is not a comparison. Quest 3 will have its uses for certain games. I would choose the AVP over it in every other instance hands down. I don’t care if people think it’s expensive. I also bought a $6,500 tv that is now obsolete because of the AVP and I just don’t care.

 

[tacoshell]

bagholders from 03 are posting like an old lady clutching her pearls during a robbery attempt.

lol. some of the accounts that are "coming out of the woodwork" (couple hundred posts, over 15 years old) in the past six months is a joy to watch. nothing sus there. oh yeah, AVP is just so exciting you want to talk about it. you were so excited that you decided to re-engage with the "community" in the run-up to release.

it has nothing to do with the bags you've been holding for 20 years. i mean, you're up like 1000% you can sell easily for market price in an instant if you were to put your bags on the market. right? "the volume is so crazy" lol

lol

the baggie fossils from the early 00s only have one advantage: the hindsight of knowing the power of perception, and how it gave them the bags they're trying to unload as we read.

APPUL 4 LIFE.

I know what all these words mean but this post doesn’t make any sense. Are you talking about the stock price? Do you think holding a bag in the market also applies when the current price is higher than when you bought?


IPOD SUX, ZUNE 4 LIFE.

 

[XboxEvolved]

A $500 TV can also do anything a $3000 TV can do, and yet some people appreciate the higher quality and are willing to pay for it.

I understand that. His premise was he thinks his TV gets HBO and no one elses does.

 

[Shirasaki]

Pathetic is more the word I would use. Marketing is such a dangerous manipulation and Apple is an absolute master of it.

Someone I met who worked with Apple before disputed the claim that Apple is a tech company, instead says it Is a marketing company. I can’t agree more. (Also steve jobs was a pain to work with)

It's like vast swaths of the tech industry (and society) are just in "fake it until you maybe make it" mode.

They have been Like this for decades. Maybe recently this trend exploded. Could this be the seed that eventually caused SVB to collapse?

 

[heretiq]

The AVP is a product in search of a problem that doesn't actually exist for anyone.

The experiences of OP and people actually using AVP are very helpful, appreciated and useful. Uninformed third-party opinions not so much.

 

[aevan]

I understand that. His premise was he thinks his TV gets HBO and no one elses does.

Ok, I missed that, sorry.

 

[XboxEvolved]

The experiences of OP and people actually using AVP are very helpful, appreciated and useful. Uninformed third-party opinions not so much.

I like how you quoted my post but didn't actually contest what I said, you just seem to be annoyed that I'm correct in my assessment. I got nothing against anyone enjoying this thing more power to them, but don't go on the internet and tell people they don't understand it and then list off a bunch of stuff you can do in some form on far cheaper tech.

 

[NotApplicable]

I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of what AVP is.

Yes, everyone else is an idiot aren’t they! Only you have the true, fundamental understanding of what AVP is!

 

[heretiq]

I like how you quoted my post but didn't actually contest what I said, you just seem to be annoyed that I'm correct in my assessment. I got nothing against anyone enjoying this thing more power to them, but don't go on the internet and tell people they don't understand it and then list off a bunch of stuff you can do in some form on far cheaper tech.

The OP was sharing his experience and a realization that he believes is different from the broader perspective on the device. I saw value in that, but not in the comment that he could get the same experience for less money — which is both obvious and besides the point for those of us wanting to learn more about this new spatial computing device.

 

[XboxEvolved]

The OP was sharing his experience and a realization that he believes is different from the broader perspective on the device. I saw value in that, but not in the comment that he could get the same experience for less money — which is both obvious and besides the point for those of us wanting to learn more about this new spatial computing device.

Yeah I don't think it is that obvious to a lot of people on here because a lot of them are like the OP and think they are doing something brand new, and then they use Apple's marketing terms to describe a headset.

 

[heretiq]

Good for him. He went through enough B.S. with reddit. Being an indie developer is no joke, to see one get any kind of reward is heartening.

Great points @Abazigal and @cateye. Christian is one example of the thousands of real “indie” developers developing for AVP. They are largely silent, but much more representative of the developer community perspective on the value of developing for Apple platforms than Google, Facebook, Netflix and others with hidden agendas. Unfortunately, it is the latter that many non-developer pundits on MR are quoting to support their “no developer is going to develop for AVP” bias.

 

[heretiq]

Yeah I don't think it is that obvious to a lot of people on here because a lot of them are like the OP and think they are doing something brand new, and then they use Apple's marketing terms to describe a headset.

Apple’s entry in this category will bring focus, investment, advancements and grow the market for themselves and competitors. Apple’s marketing and marketing and terminology will drive this growth where Microsoft and Meta have failed. If you were making a multi-billion dollar investment in this space would you use the same demonstrably failed technology and marketing approach as those that have floundered for decades? 🤔

 

[heretiq]

The latter

I have several friends who had been asking me about AVP and they honestly hadn't ever looked into or tried any other VR/AR device of any kind.

Read this comment very slowly. The fact that AVP is driving interest amongst people who "hadn't ever looked into or tried any other VR/AR device of any kind" is the point, and should be celebrated — not derided. Where is the outrage and derision that Microsoft and Facebook have invested decades and billions in developing and marketing their products and yet remain invisible to people like your friends? I just don’t get the Apple bashing when they're investing billions to drive innovation and awareness to a demonstrably stalled (some might say failed) market. 🤔

 

[Abazigal]

Great points @Abazigal and @cateye. Christian an example of one the thousands of real “indie” developers developing for AVP. They are largely silent, but much more representative of the developer community perspective on the value of developing for Apple platforms than Google, Facebook, Netflix and others with hidden agendas. Unfortunately, it is the latter that many non-developer pundits on MR are quoting to support their “no developer is going to develop for AVP” bias.

Great observation.

I believe this is because Apple's App Store policies are designed to both benefit as many of the smaller developers as possible, while also preserving the bulk of their revenue.

Most developers are making under $1 million, which means they qualify for the small developer programme and need pay Apple only 15%. This is a pretty good deal considering how much of the administrative matters end up being handled by Apple.

Christian Selig himself has shared that in 2023, he made just under $1 million in revenue (no word on what this translates to in terms of actual take-home pay). While he expects to exceed this amount in 2024, he does not seem bitter about having to pay Apple more at all. So either he is very good at hiding his true feelings, or he is content with the money he is making.

At the same time, the amount of revenue generated by these developers is a very small amount of total App Store revenue (the bulk comes from freemium games like Fortnite). I estimate under 5%, so it's a small price to pay in order to keep the majority of developers happy.

Meanwhile, it's no small secret that Apple gets the most money from IAPs, and really, I don't think there is much sympathy to be had from the likes of clash of clans (and its thousand different clones) giving Apple 30% of revenue. IAPs have virtually zero marginal cost, so it still free money for them either way.

This money then goes back into upkeeping the iOS App Store, while ensuring a thriving marketplace for these small developers. It's actually pretty clever when you think about it.

 

[TheRoxyTheatre]

Got mine today and I 100% agree. It’s actually good enough you don’t need to take it off. The big game changer here is how you interact with everything. It’s so intuitive. I have a meta quest 3 and there just is not a comparison. Quest 3 will have its uses for certain games. I would choose the AVP over it in every other instance hands down. I don’t care if people think it’s expensive. I also bought a $6,500 tv that is now obsolete because of the AVP and I just don’t care.

I can appreciate this aspect of the AVP. Having an IMAX size screen with a set of Dolby Atmos capable headphones is a game changer. A legitimate home theater set up would cost thousands more.

 

[Naraxus]

....Apple feels like a late stage company that is in the "squeeze juice from the existing lemon" phase of things.

That's what you get when you appoint a beancounter to be your CEO. You get micromanagement, penny-pinching, fifedoms etc taking precedence over things like innovation, making things work, great customer experiences and so on.

Jobs made a huge mistake making John Scully 2.0 the CEO.

 

[DrWojtek]

The problem is that any sane person that today already spends x amount of hours every day in front of a screen in any form, would not want to take a step further down the anti-social path that the AVP is. We want to reduce our screen time, not increase it.

The future is not more tech and anti-social behaviour.

You should have played with your cat instead of wasting your time on YouTube.

 

[okieoutwest]

The future is not more tech and anti-social behaviour.

Skipped to the end of this thread and glad you said this here. It’s sad that being an enthusiast for one of the better tech companies finds one among a crowd that is also so uncritical in its view of tech and its trajectory right now.