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Squire said:
That is, in a nutshell, the reason I bought my Mac in the first place (a 17" 1 GHz iMac). I was sick and tired of my computer doing things that I didn't want it to do.

Squire

Funny, that´s similar to what my client (the one I mentionned somewhere above) said the other day when giving her a tutorial on InDesign. She had a PC in her office that she´d been using for a few years. She´d only had her new 15" PB for a couple of days and already she exclaimed her love for it and the OS. And her hate for the beige box.

Anyway, I got more convinced that day that the average user will be better off with an integrated fully featured computer like the iMac or a notebook. They will not know when to apply a module (processor/memory/wireless/modem) to perform certain tasks more efficiently. I believe these things should be built in, and the OS should kick in the extra functions when needed without bothering the user. One thing is having modules that are shaped to only fit certain holes, something everyone will manage, but the user will then also have to know what the purpose of the different modules are. I for one am a Mac user for the simplicity of almost all processes, and I think that´s still the most valid selling point Apple has.
 
Regarding Apple, marketing, price points, consumer education, et al:

Please do not misunderstand me. I am a staunch Mac advocate, and have been since I got into this crazy rat race in '86. However, when you can't even convince the educated techs, how can you expect regular people to "get it"?

I'm not trying to be a downer here, far from it. But when you have consumer apathy running amuck, it's no wonder things are so screwed up. That's just the computer world, to say nothing of the real one...

Apple does not have a super-low price point for similar reasons that Sony doesn't, that Porche and Mercedes do not: it trivializes their brand. Don't think so? Don't agree? You think it should be cheaper? Really?

Consider this: we, the public, have to fight against the Wal-Martization of the consumer. I see this more and more every day: "cheaper = better". I've said it before: you have people out there who would choose a Ford Tempo over a Mercedes not because they cannot necessarilly spend the money, but because they believe that being cheaper makes something better. They can get away with cutting corners in their lives, as if there was no real consequence. But that isn't true, and it never has been.

Our society is encouraging our population to say values are unimportant, that everything is disposable, don't pay top dollar for anything, and steal as much as you can and, when you get caught, it wasn't really you, and you didn't really do anything wrong. It was the system.

People are people, and so long as we allow room for the mentality of "Well, Windows is just as good as Mac OS, and all the OSs are just as bad and flawed, so why should I spend more when I can spend less?", then we all loose, not just Apple. It's like, in America, people who live in northern states (heck, even some southern ones) have a visceral reaction, particularly at first blush, about living in Florida. "Oh," some say, "it's too hot and muggy, and it's all swampy, so I could never live there." I won't lie to you: Florida is hot, but not the way many think. "Apple is junk. All my friends tell me this, so it must be true." I talk to computer techs, all on the PC side of things, all of the time who try to tell me that there's no software for the Mac, and I should be using Windows so I can keep up with the rest of the world, or face reality, or some other equally dull-witted reasoning.

If someone doesn't spend more because they haven't got it to spend, I don't fault them for it. You can't buy a Porche if you can't afford one, and you shouldn't buy one if you can't afford to keep it, but Apple has long ago lost the culture war.

"Computer people", and I use that term loosely, aren't computer enthusiasts such as I was, and many others were as well. Most people aren't even interested in technology. They just want to have the cool gadgets. Like it's another notch on their belt. I know this because I support them, day in and day out. They use computers because it is trendy and popular. Gotta have that email. Gotta be able to search the web for the latest song, or video. Gotta get that file swapping program.

Perhaps if Apple sent a message to people that the future is in their hands, the decision as to who will control their lives and their desktops is theirs, and that Apple really does produce a product worth their consideration, it might work. Then again, what do I know? If they glitzed it up and sold it on Survivor, maybe it would work then. Hey, you know what, Apple is a survivor, in nearly every sense and definition of that word, and they're the underdog. Remember the old Hertz/Avis rivalry? Maybe Apple should say: "We're #2, and we're working harder for you."

Mike
 
MikeTheC said:
We, the public, have to fight against the Wal-Martization of the consumer. I see this more and more every day: "cheaper = better". I've said it before: you have people out there who would choose a Ford Tempo over a Mercedes not because they cannot necessarilly spend the money, but because they believe that being cheaper makes something better. They can get away with cutting corners in their lives, as if there was no real consequence. But that isn't true, and it never has been.

This is so true it hurts. Literally. And btw that's why I'm still stunned the iPod is such an amazing success and is not (yet?) losing marketshare to the 'good enough', cheaper imitators like the horrible, horrible Dell DJ. I mean, what has happened here? A pricey product with style, class and genuine user-friendliness outselling the cheap crappy competition? Why can the iPod achieve what the iMac or the PowerBook or the Power Mac can't? (And the "people would have to re-buy all their software" argument IMO only works for professional user, as the eMac or iMac come with all the software 'normal' e-mailing, web-surfing, cd-burning users will ever need.)
 
the future said:
This is so true it hurts. Literally. And btw that's why I'm still stunned the iPod is such an amazing success and is not (yet?) losing marketshare to the 'good enough', cheaper imitators like the horrible, horrible Dell DJ. I mean, what has happened here? A pricey product with style, class and genuine user-friendliness outselling the cheap crappy competition? Why can the iPod achieve what the iMac or the PowerBook or the Power Mac can't? (And the "people would have to re-buy all their software" argument IMO only works for professional user, as the eMac or iMac come with all the software 'normal' e-mailing, web-surfing, cd-burning users will ever need.)

Some musings

If Macs could run Windows ( 😱 ) more Macs would sell. Macs look cool and switching would not be a hurdle...

Even more interesting, if OSX could run on PCs, less Macs would sell. OSX is pretty cool and if people could dual boot, then geeks and students could get their cheap hardware and run an excellent os.

Many people dont want the hassle of learning something new and thinking they will loose access to software like games and shareware programs. Office is really important to the Mac for easing switchers across.

The iPod serves both pc and osx so Apples cool hardware design is allowed to thrive. Hopefully it will bring many users across to macs as Apple establishes itself in the minds of main stream market...
 
aswitcher said:
Hopefully it will bring many users across to macs as Apple establishes itself in the minds of main stream market...
Only if they get some new computers out of the bloody door VERY soon. I can't believe how long it's been since there was anything new in the range.
 
skunk said:
Only if they get some new computers out of the bloody door VERY soon. I can't believe how long it's been since there was anything new in the range.


True of G5s and iMacs but everything else has been updated recently.

I agree though iMacs though are holding back switchers looking for a decent all in one LCD monitor machine...
 
Dead On Arrival ...waiting for replacement...10 working days have passed...no one can tell me when I might get it...
17" PowerBook G4 1.5GHz - 128 VRAM - 80 GIG 5400 RPM HDD - 1 GIG RAM
Wow I'm sorry, have you tried calling them back for it?

From the Rumor on the main page it lookes like they might be getting ready for new G5's (PowerMacs that is)
 
the future said:
Why can the iPod achieve what the iMac or the PowerBook or the Power Mac can't?
Enthusiasm about computers has decreased and what positively differentiates Macs from the competition is imperceptible, irrelevant, and unimportant to most people. Seems there's a general lack of ability to recognize and discern genuine quality/value in computers, both hardware and software. What some of us take for granted simply isn't compelling enough for the mainstream to prefer a Mac or other non-PC/Windows alternative.

MikeTheC's excellent post already covered some sober thoughts about this quite well.
 
slooksterPSV said:
Wow I'm sorry, have you tried calling them back for it?

From the Rumor on the main page it lookes like they might be getting ready for new G5's (PowerMacs that is)


No one seems to be able to give me a straight answer about how much longer it might be. 17"s are apparently in constraint at present in oz which is about the only thing Apple would say.

Can't say this switch is going well... 😡
 
aswitcher said:
No one seems to be able to give me a straight answer about how much longer it might be. 17"s are apparently in constraint at present in oz which is about the only thing Apple would say.

Can't say this switch is going well... 😡

Dude, that sucks. Just don't think that all Apple products suck because you got one bad machine. I've never had a single bit of trouble with any of my Macs, and neither has any of my family members. You just happen to get a bad PowerBook. Hopefully your replacement will arrive shortly. Stick with Macs, you'll be happy you did in the long run. If you haven't already done so, its a very good idea to buy the 2yr. AppleCare extended warranty for $349. You may think thats a lot of money, but its nothing compared to paying $900+ for a new logicboard if it fails for example. Plus it extends your telephone support from 90 days to 3 years too. Its a very good buy! You have until 1 year of your original purchase to buy it. So you have sometime to think about it, or save up for it.
 
mklos said:
Dude, that sucks.

That's so true.

Yep, I got Applecare already...

Got an iPod as well with Applecare...but it has been sitting useless in a box for the last 2+ weeks... 🙁
 
aswitcher said:
Some musings

If Macs could run Windows ( 😱 ) more Macs would sell. Macs look cool and switching would not be a hurdle...

Even more interesting, if OSX could run on PCs, less Macs would sell. OSX is pretty cool and if people could dual boot, then geeks and students could get their cheap hardware and run an excellent os.

I regret to inform you that there are some flaws in this reasoning, much as I would love to see it be the truth and happen myself.

If Apple were to, let's say, work with MS for a PPC version of Windows that could run natively on G4s and G5s, it would stratetically undermine their position, because it would be tantamount to admitting defeat and throwing in the towel. The plan would not only backfire for that reason but also because there are very few people out there who would want to spend the money on the Apple premium hardware. It would also fail to work because the OS wouldn't be the only thing to recode, but so would all the apps, too. To say nothing of the fact that the WHOLE POINT IN SWITCHING would be moot.

So, why not just have Apple put out their own brand of x86 hardware? Well, first, it would be another strategic and psychological defeat for Apple. Second, again, an insufficient number of people would pay a premium for Apple-branded hardware to run an OS they could run on anybody's cheap hardware. Third, other than switching brands, this would hardly be a "switch" in the sense we're talking about.

Which brings us to having Mac OS X available for the x86 platform. This would be the best strategy of those offered here because it would bring a viable OS alternative to the x86 masses. However, it would more likely be a strategic problem, if not out-and-out failure, for Apple because it would have the effect of canabalizing their hardware sales. And, for a hardware-driven company like Apple, this really doesn't help anyone.

If, theoretically, Apple were to truly envision themselves as a software company and not a hardware one, this would, of course, obviously be the basic strategy they'd go with, assuming they didn't decide to abandon OS development which, I think, would fundamentally be suicide for Apple, and would be the death of the Mac platform.

Oh, and by the way, you'd still have the "switching hurdle" because people would then have to switch to running Mac OS X/x86 apps. Really, what's the difference between that and rebuying apps that also happen to run on a different hardware platform? The software cost for the consumer would be the same because you'd still have the same fundamental redevelopment costs.

aswitcher said:
Some musings
Many people dont want the hassle of learning something new and thinking they will loose access to software like games and shareware programs. Office is really important to the Mac for easing switchers across.

This does go to the core of the argument of people not being interested in technology. This, unfortunately, a company by itself, and perhaps the whole computer industry together, cannot strategize around or against. It is what it is. The only way to change it is to effect societal change, which is unlikely, unwieldly, costly, and time-consuming.

Regarding the iPod cutting across the Mac and PC markets and stubbornly being popular despite it's price point, I would argue that this phenominon is due to marketing and trendy-ness more than any particular technological prowess on Apple's part, much though I might wish to the contrary.

Mike
 
We concur.

I must admit that MikeTheC makes a very intelligent and informed synthesis of the state of the Mac vs PC.

In the 15 years I've used a Mac, versus my 'dark-ages' period when I briefly dabled into PC's, I can attest that Apple has a vastly superior product.

Apple's strength lies in its control of the hardware, and not allowing the hodgepodge of dozens of standards stuffed in an un-elegant box. The current iterations of Mac products are clean, well-designed, and orderly. This is in direct contrast to getting a motherboard from one company, the drives from another company, memory from another company, etc, ad infinitum.

I had MORE problems with my former PC systems, either locking up, not recognizing components, viruses, and so on. I've only had 2 kernal panics, in the two years plus I've had my iBook, which goes to show how superior even a low-end Apple system provides.

Sure, it would be great to get a PM G5 for the prices that Dell offers many of it's systems, but you get what you pay for. I'll continue using Macs until I die.
 
G5 iMac in the works

I would look for something along the lines of:

20" iMac 2.0 GHz G5, 512MB, 128MB video, dual layer 2X optical drive
17" iMac 1.8 GHz G5

These will be a complete redesign. Something that totally rocks.

I will speculate that the eMac is dead and will be replaced by something like the 15" iMac.

Also,

17" PB with 2.0 GHz G4, dual layer 2X optical drive

Even with the recent bump in the PowerBooks, I would look for something new announced at WWDC. True, they will not ship for weeks.

I think the iPod rumors I have been reading are pretty close. This will be a major update --- Jobs DOES NOT want those felons (in an antitrust context) at MS to steal his thunder. I just hope they don't try to do too much by adding too many "fluff" features. 80GB iPod with video looking good.
 
mcfudd said:
I will speculate that the eMac is dead and will be replaced by something like the 15" iMac.
Something like? There already is a 15" iMac and it hasn't replaced the eMac.

Have you read about folks in education who prefer CRTs in "hostile" environments where LCDs would be easily damaged?

Would have made much sense for Apple to recently update the eMac if they didn't think there was still a market for it and was intending to replace it.

Btw, my new eMac is far from dead, thank you. Plus it was significantly cheaper adding a 1GB DIMM compared with any current iMac. Yes, I'd have preferred a LCD display but right now I'm satisfied with the value I'm getting from the eMac.
 
time will tell

sjk said:
Something like? There already is a 15" iMac and it hasn't replaced the eMac.

Would have made much sense for Apple to recently update the eMac if they didn't think there was still a market for it and was intending to replace it.


We will see what happens to the PowerBook G4 at the WWDC to see if your argument is valid. They were just bumped two+ weeks ago. I think things will change.

The iMac LCD screens have a solid plastic cover over the actual LCD. Pretty strong except in classes where the first graders have hammers. Even low end eMachines systems come with LCD displays. I cannot imagine keeping CRTs around. Could be wrong?

Also, the eMac need a bump so badly a few weeks ago it would have been crazy for Jobs to wait until June to change things.

They are solid systems --- very cheap to upgrade --- but time to move on.
 
MikeTheC said:
I regret to inform you that there are some flaws in this reasoning, much as I would love to see it be the truth and happen myself.

SNIP

This does go to the core of the argument of people not being interested in technology. This, unfortunately, a company by itself, and perhaps the whole computer industry together, cannot strategize around or against. It is what it is. The only way to change it is to effect societal change, which is unlikely, unwieldly, costly, and time-consuming.

Regarding the iPod cutting across the Mac and PC markets and stubbornly being popular despite it's price point, I would argue that this phenominon is due to marketing and trendy-ness more than any particular technological prowess on Apple's part, much though I might wish to the contrary.

Mike

I wasn't suggesting any changes to Apple were likely 😉 But I see your points.

Most PC users shy from macs for 3 reasons.

Cost - and for what they want it is more expensive (desktop/laptop, office)

PC centric software - especially download ppeer-to-peer systems and games, they always ask what the mac market is like...and because I haven't switched yet I can't give them a good idea but to say its more limited...

New system - they have enough trouble with XP but since they have always used MS they are unwilling to take the risk of trying something new
 
LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE

Please oh please stop spelling it "loose" (you know who you are).

On the subject of Apple and pricing I have to agree with MikeTheC.

Apple is the Armani of the computer world. Would you really like to
see them selling Macs for £450 in supermarkets?
Macs are iconic, stylish, well engineered, quality products. They aren't machines for people on a budget. It's no accident that they are expensive. It's as much a part of their branding as any practical costs. Apples are indeed, bad for your wealth.

There's a direct correlation between their "coolness", niche market and price. If Apple dropped their prices, Macs would become increasingly mainstream, and since when has being mainstream been "cool" or "thinking differently"?

If you can't afford one then don't buy one. Few really NEED a Mac. For most it's a personal preference. If you do need one or simply "must have" one, then save and then really appreciate the quality product that you have purchased.




LOSE (verb) To fail to win; fail in: lost the game; lost the court case.
LOOSE (adjective) Not tight-fitting or tightly fitted: loose shoes.
 
personal choice

PRØBE said:
There's a direct correlation between their "coolness", niche market and price. If Apple dropped their prices, Macs would become increasingly mainstream, and since when has being mainstream been "cool" or "thinking differently"?

I get what you are trying to say, but have a slightly different take.

Apple charges more for their systems because they are a hardware company -- not a software company. True they make great software, but their profits come from the hardware.

I don't agree that if something becomes mainstream it is no longer "cool" --- think iPod. Very cool, very expensive, and very mainstream.

I would much rather pay less, but I will not give one more penny of my money to support a company that maintains an illegal monopoly, overcharges for buggy software, and blatently lies in court. Yes, I am talking about MS.
 
Not to knock your post but...

sjk said:
Something like? There already is a 15" iMac and it hasn't replaced the eMac.

Have you read about folks in education who prefer CRTs in "hostile" environments where LCDs would be easily damaged?

Would have made much sense for Apple to recently update the eMac if they didn't think there was still a market for it and was intending to replace it.

Btw, my new eMac is far from dead, thank you. Plus it was significantly cheaper adding a 1GB DIMM compared with any current iMac. Yes, I'd have preferred a LCD display but right now I'm satisfied with the value I'm getting from the eMac.

IMHO, the eMac's screen is GROTESQUE! Resolution at its maximum has an unnaceptable refresh rate. I would not, and could not look at eMac's screen longer than five minutes. Guess I've become used to flat-screens too much.

As for hostile environments in education, it would seem that schools should "stand up" and make irresponsible pupils accountable for any damage, but I guess this is me dreaming. If it were up to me, grades K-12 would have a mandatory uniform, and reinsitute 1 to 1-1/2 hours of physical education into the curriculum, EVERY day-that my friends would cure us of "McDonald's made me fat, so I'm going to sue them" attitude.
 
mcfudd said:
I get what you are trying to say, but have a slightly different take.

Apple charges more for their systems because they are a hardware company -- not a software company. True they make great software, but their profits come from the hardware.

I don't agree that if something becomes mainstream it is no longer "cool" --- think iPod. Very cool, very expensive, and very mainstream.

I would much rather pay less, but I will not give one more penny of my money to support a company that maintains an illegal monopoly, overcharges for buggy software, and blatently lies in court. Yes, I am talking about MS.



Although undeniably Apple's most successful product by far in sales terms, ipods are hardly mainstream.
 
mainstream

They are not mainstream everywhere.

But go to Manhattan, NY and you will discover they are very "mainstream." 🙂
 
the future said:
This is so true it hurts. Literally. And btw that's why I'm still stunned the iPod is such an amazing success and is not (yet?) losing marketshare to the 'good enough', cheaper imitators like the horrible, horrible Dell DJ. I mean, what has happened here? A pricey product with style, class and genuine user-friendliness outselling the cheap crappy competition? Why can the iPod achieve what the iMac or the PowerBook or the Power Mac can't? (And the "people would have to re-buy all their software" argument IMO only works for professional user, as the eMac or iMac come with all the software 'normal' e-mailing, web-surfing, cd-burning users will ever need.)


I know it's weird i was expecting the ipod to go the way of betamax and the dreamcast.
 
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