G5 Specs for WWDC!

[SyndicateX]

I HAVE A QUESTION.

You know how around a year ago, the fastest Apple processor was around 1.5 GHz? Everyone always said then that even though there were 3.2 GHz Intels around, that the Apple processors were still comparable for various reasons. Does this mean that if we get 3 GHz in an Apple machine, that they will blow away Intels offerings?

Pretty much, Apple and AMD have always used processors that ran at lower clock speeds but offered comparable calculations. I do find it unbelievable that in a little over a year since apple has dumped Motorola, we have gone from a max of dual 1.4ghz g4's, to dual 2.0 ghz g5, now to dual 3ghz at the least (just my opinion). And although AMD has also made significant progress in their chips, its no where near the progress apple and IBM have made as partners. And all this time, Intel has gone from 3.2ghz when we were at 1.4, all the way to 3.4.....and now scrapped the processor for the Pentium M.

When you look at the domination intel had on the market for so long and their sudden collapse, it can make you wonder if even the great and powerful Microsoft could be setting itself up for just such a collapse with their next os being 3+ years away.

 

[invaLPsion]

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These guys have been dead-on several times. In fact they announced the last Powerbook and iBook revision a few days before their release and were exact on all the specs! I'm not saying they are infallible, but they seem to have some real info (kinda like ThinkSecret).

Anyhow, I'd love to see this happen!

Croquer has never gotten anything right. They are like MOSR. No truth at all....

And they were completely wrong about the iBook and Powerbook specs and everyone was saying that they would come out anyway.

S0rry, there is no truth to this.

 

[macridah]

Those are big jumps, but i'll take them. Can't wait. I'll be attending my first WWDC

 

[SyndicateX]

Pin-incompatibility could be a big deal, too. The 970 uses a scheme that IBM calls 576-GBA, and the Power5 uses 5400. Nevermind that the Power5 uses on-die memory control (usually a pin change), and a different architecture, quite aside ffrom heat.

Thanks for the link. I thought I remembered this, but I didn't really want to go digging for even more muck.

Here's where we take a massive, screechingly different path in our reasoning. The Power5 is a high-power, high fault-tolerance Big Iron server chip, not something intended for workstations or desktop computers. It's like the Power4 on steroids, and so the 975 will be its little brother. Odds are that the 975 will be higher clock because it will be less hefty on the corporate mainframe characteristics (like thicker oxides on the gates and more cores and cache per chip). IBM will be driving the Power5, but I'd be willing to lay money they're working with Apple on the PPC 975.

The Power5 is probably the most advanced thing that IBM has ever created. It's a dual-core, eight logical processor, sixteen virtual processor (SMT) design. Each unit is sold as something called an MCM, or mmulti-chip module, which is then slotted into a two MCM unit called a book. Each book presents the server with the idea that is has 32 processors to work with, all of them on incredible bandwidth that would make the current Opterons and G5s cry like babies.

It is not, however, a chip that goes over 3.0ghz yet. The debut models are around 2.0ghz core clock, which will likely scale over 3.0ghz on the consumer version (the 975).

Facts are wonderful things.

True, and I didnt mean to imply that apple would be using an actual POWER5, I just meant it would be a processor derived from it, which I figured would be implied as all Apples processors are deviations from IBM's more costly processors. If it is a 975, then it wouldnt have ALL the cutting edge technology within the POWER5 itself, but it still offers a huge performance and technological advancement over the current 970's. I guess I should have just kept the argument to the 970 vs 975, I just wanted to point out the fact that you pointed out so well in your other post that they are based on entirely different processor's and regardless of what the derived processor actually utilizes, it will still be superior to the current POWER4 basis.

(And I do have another link somewhere that details an actual article between Apple and IBM that specifically states that Apple would have a significant role in the future direction of IBMs processors, I just need to find it.)

 

[i_am_a_cow]

FROM THE APPLE STORE:

Between March 28, 2004, and June 26, 2004, purchase a Power Mac G5 and a 23-inch Cinema HD Display at the same time — and get $500 back by mail.

*The following terms and conditions govern this offer: End-user customers must order and take possession of qualifying Apple products from March 28, 2004, through June 26, 2004. Apple products must be purchased directly from Apple or an authorized Apple reseller located in the 50 United States or the District of Columbia...

somethings coming.

 

[a17inchFuture]

This site is the site that prediucted G5 PB's in eight weeks, about 10 weeks ago. They are bunk, and I think this rumor is too.

Also, I dont know much about burning dvd's, but i think the dual layering is slightly complicated, and unlikely to be included on these computers. Check here if you care to know more, but this article says the model is coming soon, and its teh first dual layer burner, so i doubt apple would casually be including them in their new models.

site: http://www.burnworld.com/howto/articles/intro-to-dual-layer.htm

 

[ZildjianKX]

Well, the specs are certainly what Apple should be releasing... even if they are true, I bet there is going to be a huge wait.

 

[ITR 81]

Too bad the 3Ghz won't be out in time for me to use in my new small business.

I'll just have to make due with a dual 2Ghz machine and get a 3GHz or so for home.

 

[thatwendigo]

somethings coming.

Psssst. Apple Brilliant Savings promo thread (started on March 28th)

 

[Toreador93]

You guys keep forgetting about COOLIGY!!


Intel, AMD, Apple + Cooligy

Also, NEC and Hitachi have water cooling systems for Laptops. I don't think they're 1" thick, but I think the technology will be there eventually. And with Cooligy, I think it'll be soon.

 

[thatwendigo]

This site is the site that prediucted G5 PB's in eight weeks, about 10 weeks ago. They are bunk, and I think this rumor is too.

As opposed to how often this site and others have crowed that new PowerMAcs, PowerBooks, iMacs, and everything else would show up? Do I really need to go back and show how often you have been in on the feeding frenzy on those topics, or will you drop this?

Also, I dont know much about burning dvd's, but i think the dual layering is slightly complicated, and unlikely to be included on these computers. Check here if you care to know more, but this article says the model is coming soon, and its teh first dual layer burner, so i doubt apple would casually be including them in their new models.

As I already stated, Pioneer has demonstrated the technology in the drive that Apple uses now, otherwise known as the Pioneer DVR A06. It requires an update to the drive's firmware that the company is not releasing to the public yet, but which they did show would work at CES 2004.

http://www.burnworld.com/howto/articles/intro-to-dual-layer.htm

How does this have any bearing whatsoever on the introduction of the technology? For one thing, Apple is known for embracing new techology - 17" laptop screens, USB, FireWire, AGP, and so on - in their designs. All that the link you posted does is explain how it works, and show off the Sony design that's coming to marrket right now.

The computer and peripheral page of Sony Style is advertising the dual-layer drives right now. They're $199 retail for the installable DRU-700A units.

Reasearch before you shoot down what others say.

 

[k2k koos]

3Ghz......Thanks Steve Promise kept!

If it is WWDC of Paris, Steve has held his promise.

If introduced and available right after the Paris Expo (usually septemberish) Then they are available a year after the 2Ghz was available in the stores (I'm not talking pre order here) , If WWDC announced, that would be 1 year after the announcement of the 2Ghz, With a speed % increase seen usually after 18 months or more, not bad at all, kuddos to Apple



if it is all true of course.....

 

[iris_failsafe]

It seems that we finally are going to see a workstation from Apple. Very excited to hear about ATI professional cards coming out. Maybe Maya unlimited and Softimage will finally have a Mac version.

Al so if indee these specs turn out to be true, they will crush even an sgi machine and any intel power thing out there

 

[ZildjianKX]

As I already stated, Pioneer has demonstrated the technology in the drive that Apple uses now, otherwise known as the Pioneer DVR A06. It requires an update to the drive's firmware that the company is not releasing to the public yet, but which they did show would work at CES 2004.

Hardmac, who published this info, posted later that the drive would have to be physically modified as well... I was following the news on it closely since I own that particular drive... real bummer

 

[IBSNOWEDIN]

I hope this rumor is true. if it is i will be ordering one of those 3ghz monsters come on be true.

 

[Ysean]

Looks like some people are mistaken

Wow, 65W - that's going to be a lot of heat.....so look for a lot of noise....

But it will be nice to see real pro level graphics cards if its true..

D

Even if 65W is the "typical" heat generation it is not a big deal. Almost EVERY chipmaker specifies their "typical" heat generation and not their max. You can get the max if you do enough digging. But, what they all like to talk about is the typical output. So this is still better than the other boys. Besides, how many people actually maxes out their computers for extended periods of time doing compute intensive tasks?

 

[neonart]

Croquer has never gotten anything right. They are like MOSR. No truth at all....

And they were completely wrong about the iBook and Powerbook specs and everyone was saying that they would come out anyway.

S0rry, there is no truth to this.

Ahh, dude?

The iBooks were right on except the high end, but they even called the Superdrive. The Powerbooks were also right minus the midrange. They made these calls before anyone else, including ThinkSecret.

Again, I'm not saying this is it, but it appears these guys do have some decent info.

And BTW, was it not you that believed and promoted NeatGekko's predictions? At least these guys have gotten a few things right. Not trying to get on your case or anything, but I find your statement of "Croquer has never gotten anything right" to be misleading, and unfounded.

 

[alexf]

How many watts do the current 2, 1.8, and 1.6 processors run at?
How much more noise would their be between a dual 2 GHz now and a dual 3 GHz?

Here is a link from the Apple site with power consumption / thermal specs for the current lineup: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=32486

I also believe that the current single processor machines are significantly quieter than the duals. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Sun Baked]

Even if 65W is the "typical" heat generation it is not a big deal. Almost EVERY chipmaker specifies their "typical" heat generation and not their max. You can get the max if you do enough digging. But, what they all like to talk about is the typical output. So this is still better than the other boys. Besides, how many people actually maxes out their computers for extended periods of time doing compute intensive tasks?

This is why Max is a problem, it would put this chip at or above a 3.2 GHz Intel Xeon chip...

About where the 2.0GHz PPC970 is.

And the PowerMacs have two of these hot puppies.

 

[thatwendigo]

Hardmac, who published this info, posted later that the drive would have to be physically modified as well... I was following the news on it closely since I own that particular drive... real bummer

Ah, well... I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the correction, and I'll keep it in mind when I argue the dual-layer point in the future. It doesn't change the fact that Sony is selling their burner on their website.

Interestingly, Hardmac now claims that NEC is releasing the ND-6100A, a laptop format 8x DVD burner that will support dual-layer format. Their list, verbatim:
DVD+R9 2,4x WRITE
DVD+R 8x WRITE
DVD+RW 4x WRITE
CD-R 24x WRITE
CD-RW 16x WRITE
CD 24x READ
DVD 8x READ

 

[thatwendigo]

Here is a link from the Apple site with power consumption / thermal specs for the current lineup: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=32486

I also believe that the current single processor machines are significantly quieter than the duals. Can anyone confirm this?

Oh my God, thank you, alex.

Those of you who clamor for the G5 in a laptop, read it and weep:

1.6 GHz G5 microprocessor, 800 MHz Frontside Bus, 512 KB L2 cache,
256 MB DDR333 128 bit SDRAM, Expandable to 4 GB SDRAM, 80 GB Serial ATA, SuperDrive, (3) PCI Slots, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra, 64 MB DDR video memory, 56 kbit/s internal modem

IDLE: 120W
MAX: 420W

1.8 GHz G5 microprocessor, 900 MHz Frontside Bus, 512 KB L2 cache,
512 MB DDR400 128 bit SDRAM, Expandable to 8 GB SDRAM, 160 GB Serial ATA, SuperDrive, (3) PCI-X Slots, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra, 64 MB DDR video memory, 56 kbit/s internal modem

IDLE: 120W
MAX: 430W

Even if you assume that portable versions of components would cut power usage in half, that's 60 watts at idle and 215 watts at full-bore for a single processor 1.8ghz G5. Trim an additional 15 watts for the 970fx, and you're still staring at 45 watts and 200 watts. Damn.

 

[ffakr]

You guys keep forgetting about COOLIGY!!


Intel, AMD, Apple + Cooligy

Also, NEC and Hitachi have water cooling systems for Laptops. I don't think they're 1" thick, but I think the technology will be there eventually. And with Cooligy, I think it'll be soon.

Cooligy is very similar to current heat pipe solutions. This is not "water cooling". It's a bit more complicated than a circulating radiator setup like you'd find in an after market water cooling PC solution.
The G5 uses Heatpipes. If you take the covers off the heat sinks, you'll see that there are heat pipes embedded into the G5 heat sinks.

Here's some info on how heatpipes work...
http://www.cheresources.com/htpipes.shtml

 

[ffakr]

Oh my God, thank you, alex.

Those of you who clamor for the G5 in a laptop, read it and weep:

1.6 GHz G5 microprocessor, 800 MHz Frontside Bus, 512 KB L2 cache,
256 MB DDR333 128 bit SDRAM, Expandable to 4 GB SDRAM, 80 GB Serial ATA, SuperDrive, (3) PCI Slots, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra, 64 MB DDR video memory, 56 kbit/s internal modem

IDLE: 120W
MAX: 420W
...
Even if you assume that portable versions of components would cut power usage in half, that's 60 watts at idle and 215 watts at full-bore for a single processor 1.8ghz G5. Trim an additional 15 watts for the 970fx, and you're still staring at 45 watts and 200 watts. Damn.

You do realize that you can't even remotely compare the power consumption of a desktop to a laptop, right?
The Powersupply in the G5 is, I've heard, rated up to 600 watts. Good power supplies are about 70% efficient. Right off the bat, the machine is going to waste a lot of power.
The draw includes a desktop video card that is probably going to draw about 50 watts all by its self, and a 7200 RPM 3.5" hard drive. Also consider that a G5 supports multipliers other than 2:1 so Apple doesn't need to ship a laptop with an 800MHz system bus.
A quick look at hard drives revealed that a 7200rpm 3.5" desktop drive I looked at requires over 12 watts while spun up seeking. A 2.5" 4500rmp laptop drive requires 2 watts while spun up seeking. That's a factor of 6, not a factor of 2.

Think about it this way.....
420 W max draw on a single G5 1.6 GHz tower.
the CPU has a typical draw of under 30 watts, max should be only slightly higher (Athlons and P4's Max is within about 10% of typical). That is nearly 400 unaccounted for watts outside the processor.
or..
A G4 Tower has a powersupply that is roughly 400 watts. Figure the max draw of the machine is probably about 300 watts. Do you think that a G4 laptop has a max current draw of roughly half a tower? That would be 150 watts with a 55 watt/hour Li battery. So, a maxed out G4 powerbook would have 20 minutes of battery life?

I don't think your assumptions are even close to reality.

 

[MrSugar]

Water-cooling is the only viable option now, since CPU have gotten so hot. And Water Cooling, if the component leaks, will be just as devastating as if a PowerMac's fan fails. A burnt processor is about as effective as a soaked one. Hopefully it will have water cooling, then there won't be any gripes about fan noise.

And I'm sure IBM and Apple learned their lesson in the past, get a big stockpile of these boys before shipping.

I sure hope this rumor is true -- because I can't help from being remembered about 2Ghz G5 rumor last year and everyone doubting that.

If they can get 3Ghz into a Powermac, I can see a G5 in Powerbooks in January.


And PCI-Extreme is the new replacement for PCI. All the PC venders are going with PCI-Extreme and it'd be foolish for Apple to keep going with PCI-X just to be different. Not to mention ATI and Nvidia are going with PCI-Extreme with their new GFX cards.

PCI-x and PCI-Extreme are different, one is the new graphics card interface (PCI Extreme) and one if a faster slot for PCI cards that runs at 133mhz and 100 (PCI X).

 

[eyeluvmyimac]

i must commend thatwendigo on his input, i feel very enlightened having read his contributions to this thread and he (at least appears haha) to really know what he's talking about...that being said i would like to hear his take on the whole water/liquid cooling aspect because (i dont think) he has commented on that yet...

as far as my own opinion...i really hope this all turns out to be true, the dual layer dvd burning wouldnt mean that much to me, but im sure it does to others....ill have my money out and waiting come wwdc... =)