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G5 Specs for WWDC!
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All things being equal.
I think it would be a good option to have the first optical drive be straight dual-layer burner, and have a REALLY fast (read 52x) in the second optical bay. Why, if they've been out for a year-and-a-half, can't Apple use 52x CD-burners?!
Let's be able to burn a small amount of data (700 MB or less) to a blank CD-R in about a minute and a half, like the rest of the civilized world!
I think it would be a good option to have the first optical drive be straight dual-layer burner, and have a REALLY fast (read 52x) in the second optical bay. Why, if they've been out for a year-and-a-half, can't Apple use 52x CD-burners?!
Let's be able to burn a small amount of data (700 MB or less) to a blank CD-R in about a minute and a half, like the rest of the civilized world!
Apple Has a Good Name Dept.
Of course Apple won't make Water Cooled G5's. You're right that is a very PC thing.
They'll make Phase-Change G5's.
Or this will be the PowerMac G5 (With Climate Control).
Water Cooling is for Dorks. Climate Control is for people who drive a Lexus.
dopefiend said:
Of course Apple won't make Water Cooled G5's. You're right that is a very PC thing.
They'll make Phase-Change G5's.
Or this will be the PowerMac G5 (With Climate Control).
Water Cooling is for Dorks. Climate Control is for people who drive a Lexus.
Umm, no.
I just spent some time specing PCI Express Fiber Channel HBA's today.
And that has nothing to do with graphics cards.
MrSugar said:
I just spent some time specing PCI Express Fiber Channel HBA's today.
And that has nothing to do with graphics cards.
Well here is my take:
Anything less that 2GHz on the imac or its replacement would be a waste of Apples time.
At least one of the PowerMacs needs to run at 3GHz. Steve would be under unbelievable pressure if this where not the case. It will certainly have to be announced, delivery might be a bit off but it would have to be announced.
Thanks
Dave
Anything less that 2GHz on the imac or its replacement would be a waste of Apples time.
At least one of the PowerMacs needs to run at 3GHz. Steve would be under unbelievable pressure if this where not the case. It will certainly have to be announced, delivery might be a bit off but it would have to be announced.
Thanks
Dave
bertagert said:
ffakr said:
That entirely depends on the laptop and the systems being compared. If you look at the Pentium 4 "dekstop replacement" laptops, they eat enough power to reduce even high capacity baterries to less than an hour of life. A GeForce Go 5600 runs at 12 watts on its own, the 970FX is another 15-25watts, add on a 7200RM laptop drive (around 4-5 watts, I gather, but in shorter bursts), I have no idea on RAM wattage, but you'd see an increase in moving to PC3200 SO-DIMMS, and increase in the FSB and other fabric concerns.
Yes, and this is supposed to change anything? If you take 70% of 600 watts, that's still 420 watts of expenditure. Take 70% of 420 watts and you come up with 294 watts. Halve that, and you're still at 147 watts. Take off half of that for power optimization in graphics cards and such, and you're still well over the G4 PowerBook's draw, as near as I can figure. With the 7447A, we're looking at around 35-60 watts across the whole system for the portable, though I'm having to guess at a few numbers in that figure.
Oh, and it better be rated to 600 watts, considering that the figure for the dual 2.0ghz is 604w at max draw.
Surprisingly, the wattage of video cards isn't easy to find unless you're looking at the most current generation. The ATI x800 is considerably better at power draw than its predecessors at either nVidia or ATI, and it draws some 60-70 watts, as I recall from anandtech's review.
The G5 needs faster drives to keep it fed or you lose basically any performance advantage over the G4. That means that you're looking at 5400 and 7200 RPM, not 4500 RPM. The interesting thing is that 7200 RPM drives draw a minute amount of power over 5400RPM but provide a measurable performance boost because of lessened seek times (which keeps the drive in standby more often, and thus pulling less power when not heavily in use).
Yes, and quite a bit of that "unaccounted for" wattage is going to the subsystems that make using the G5 worthwhile - bus, RAM, drives, GPU, and so on. Without the fast support, you're going to be rehashing the thing that people complain about the most on the G4, which is a starved processor.
It depends on the generation of PowerMac you're talking about, and I don't think that any of those are using the 7447A 1.5ghz part, which is one of the most efficient G4 chips ever manufactured. It puts out that clock rate at a svelte 11 watts and uses much less heat-intensive parts/
I don't think your assumptions are even close to reality.
I was making a comparison to make a point, not stating that there was a direct correlation. The G4 towers used 250-350 watt power supplies for most of their lives. The current generation is much more power efficient than ever, and yet the desktops are drawing off a supply that is twice as fat as anything before. To put this another way, I could build a nice, fast PC from parts (well, as nice as PCs can be, that is
) and have it not need anything like 600 watts at peak.Laptop-wise, the Centrino is what we need to be looking at. It's competing solidly with the P4 on performance and running a mere 22-25 watts at 2.0ghz since the die shrink to 90nm (something that the G5 doesn't do as a single chip). The G5 is not the way to go. I'm sorry, but the numbers just don't favor it, unless you'd rather have a louder, hotter PowerBook than we have.
eyeluvmyimac said:
Thanks for the kind words. I make mistakes, just like any other human being, but I really do try to be well-informed and as objective as possible in the situation.
I'm staying out of the watercooling issue because I don't think it really needs to be discussed at this point. Liquid cooling, as in closed-system heatpipes, are already in Apple products. I'm typing at one at the moment (the eMac). However, I don't think that consumer active-pump liquid cooling systems are quite ready for mainstream yet. There's too much that can break and hurt other parts.
If anyone can do it, it's Apple, though.
Two words: Vapor Chill
Forget fans, forget water cooling. Vapor chilling is the true solution for a top-of-the-line pro desktop. If Apple made vapor chill a BTU option for around $500, I would get it.
Forget fans, forget water cooling. Vapor chilling is the true solution for a top-of-the-line pro desktop. If Apple made vapor chill a BTU option for around $500, I would get it.
ClimbingTheLog said:
What he said. Phase-change is what pro pc users are using, so it would be really embarrassing and dissapointing to be stuck with fans or even water cooling on a high-end pro desktop Apple machine.
AndrewMT said:
Vapor Chill ATX case - a mere $1,175 for a plastic chassis alone.
Complete watercooling - a steal at $390!
For those who don't know about Vapor Chill systems, here's an article about it. Basically, it's an even more complicated and more likely to fail system, because it not only relies on liquid at some stage of the process (between the condendor and the evaporator), but also on forcing high-pressure liquid through copper tubing. The one benefit to this steup is that, as I recall, Freon is gaseous at room temperature, so a leak just means that you have a completely failed cooling system and not an immediately shorted board.
Lovely tradeoff.
thatwendigo said:Vapor Chill ATX case - a mere $1,175 for a plastic chassis alone.
Complete watercooling - a steal at $390!
For those who don't know about Vapor Chill systems, here's an article about it. Basically, it's an even more complicated and more likely to fail system, because it not only relies on liquid at some stage of the process (between the condendor and the evaporator), but also on forcing high-pressure liquid through copper tubing. The one benefit to this steup is that, as I recall, Freon is gaseous at room temperature, so a leak just means that you have a completely failed cooling system and not an immediately shorted board.
Lovely tradeoff.
The new VapoChill case is around $800 and it comes standard on all of L's Mach desktops - probably the finest windows pc ever made.
Phase-change cooling has come along way since it made its consumer debut a few years ago. Everyone here knows that Apple could take this technology and make it reliable (Although, it is just as reliable as an air-conditioner) and cost-effective. Apple wouldn't be Apple if it didn't take risks by bringing new, somewhat questionable technologies to the market before any other computer manufacturer.
For those who don't know about Vapor Chill systems, here's an article about it. Basically, it's an even more complicated and more likely to fail system, because it not only relies on liquid at some stage of the process (between the condendor and the evaporator), but also on forcing high-pressure liquid through copper tubing. The one benefit to this steup is that, as I recall, Freon is gaseous at room temperature, so a leak just means that you have a completely failed cooling system and not an immediately shorted board.
Lovely tradeoff.[/QUOTE]
ahhh, just to highlight the reliability of these systems probably everyone on this thread has at least one of them in their house at the moment. Fridges and reverse-cycle airconditioners use phase change cooling. How often do they break down? This technology has been around in fridges and stuff for years and has become very reliable. It would not be very hard to keep that reliability and shrink the system down to fit in a PM.
Lovely tradeoff.
[/QUOTE]ahhh, just to highlight the reliability of these systems probably everyone on this thread has at least one of them in their house at the moment. Fridges and reverse-cycle airconditioners use phase change cooling. How often do they break down? This technology has been around in fridges and stuff for years and has become very reliable. It would not be very hard to keep that reliability and shrink the system down to fit in a PM.
AndrewMT said:
Two points, and they roughly go in order of what you're talking about:
1) I'm not impressed by something as ridiculously central to computing as the cooling system costing $800, especially not when people already call Apple overpriced. I mean, Jesus... The top of the line PowerMac, now at $3,799 baseline?
2) If you're so fond of L, then I suppose the prices don't bother you. Here's an example:
P4 3.8ghz with 512K L2 (overlcocked)
950mhz overlcocked FSB
512MB PC3200 (overclocked)
250MB SATA 7200RPM
ATI Radoen 9800 Pro 128MB
8x DVD-RW
IEEE 1394a and 1394b
Gigabit Ethernet
56k modem
802.11g (no base station)
BlueTooth
Wireless Keyboard
XP Pro (but no bundled software specified)
No monitor
Cost: $5,953
At the Apple store:
G5 dual 2.0ghz
1GB PC3200
2x 250GB SATA 7200RPM
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
8x DVD-RW
IEEE 1394a and 1394b
Gigabit Ethernet
56k modem
Airport Extreme with Base Station (Antenna and modem port)
BlueTooth
Apple Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
OS X 10.3.3
No monitor
iPod 40GB
iSight
Logitech Z-680 6.1 speakers with THX
HP PSC 2410 Multifunction Printer
LaCie d2 160GB FireWire drive
Cost: $5,989
Overclocking = bad. If you want to take those kinds of risks with your system when you've got the parts and you know what you're doing, that's one thing. The systems at L's website are being sold as consumer machines, though, and that's a maintenance nightmare waiting to happen.
Risks are one thing, and economics and physics are another. Apple tends to lead market trends in many ways, but it's a far better idea to use cooler chips than to use extravagant cooling systems that can easily go wrong.
<edit>Oh, by the way, the baseline L system when specced to be equal to the G5:
Mach 3.5 Custom
Intel Pentium 4 @ 3.5ghz
256MB "DDR466"
120GB SATA 7200RPM
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128Mb
8x DVD-RW
IEEE 1394a and 1394b
Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
XP Professional
no monitor
Cost: $3,642
Dual G5 2.0ghz
1GB PC3200
250GB SATA 7200RPM
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
8x DVD-RW
IEEE 1394a and 1394b
Wireless Keyboard and Mouse
OS X 10.3.3
no monitor
Cost: $3,712
aussiemac86 said:
You've obviously never seen a compressor foul on a refrigerator or an air conditioner, nor have you seen the runoff pipes for serious cooling units. The one at the restraunt I used to work at had a bucket to catch the residual condensation from the cooling coils, which was piped outside to be rid of it.
I mean... Wow. The units in air conditioners and refrigerators are huge, compared to what goes inside of a computer case! The vapor chill units that are being discussed here are $800 at a minium at the moment, and they're highly specialized. Small parts are more likely to break, and nobody builds these things to last 20 years, whereas air conditioners used to be expected to run forever.
I live in a region that it gets to 90 degrees and 90% humidity by June and only climbs in temperature as summer goes on. All you need to know that this is possibly a bad idea is to remember what happens when your air conditioner freezes a bearing, breaks a line (happened to me more than once), or otherwise fouls. It gets hot really quick then, and if your system is designed around this one wonder system, a singel failure means the whole thing goes down.
G4scott said:
I don't think so. If done right several things can be done with water cooled systems.
1. First and foremost this is a Mac. The average user knows NOTHING about the inside of their computer. They don't want to know anything about the inside of their computer as long as it "just works" So water cooling could simply be a feature that is added to the system and Apple wouldn't need to advertise it. Does Apple advertise that their CPU has a heat sink? As long as the user knows that its quite and it runs fast they dont need to know the cooling method.
2. As long as these water cooled heat pumps are created in a manner that assures that there is NO chance in hell of leaking this shouldn't be a problem. Such a system can be implemented simply by having the water cooling be an all in one system. Having a grunt hook up hoses is a surefire means of having a stray leak here and there. As long as the system is set up where you slap it into the PowerMac, hook up a plug to power the pump, twist some screws this should be doable. But Apple would have to use their development teams to implement a water cooling method that is near flawless in regards to stray leaks and would probably have to redesign the PowerMac to accommodate it which would be a major chore on their part. As for the other technologies that people listed here. Yes they are very impressive and very expensive. Apple is NOT going to take an over the counter solution and slap it in a G5. Its going to be customized for the system. Look at how the G5 was developed. The guts of the dang thing is a beautiful assembly of technology. Apple isnt going to take VapoChill, water cooling, Phase-Change or any other type of tech without doing some serious redesigning of the PowerMac. *shrugs* Who knows maybe thats what theyve been doing over the last year just in case IBM couldnt meet the deadline.
IMHO the big problem is that Macs have always been touted as being super cool and super electricity friendly. Water cooled CPUs dont strike me as either.
Processor, Schmocessor...I'm excited about a) the two optical drives and b) the superdrive extreme for capability of authoring dual-layer discs...which is what I presume it will do, provided that the rumors prove to be true. The added room for hard drives is helpful as well. I've been needing a reason to shell out extra dough this summer!
Guys, I wouldn't worry about the cooling system too much - I'm sure Apple will get something very functional and cool(no pun intended) worked out.
Although it would be neat to have liquid cooling...
I also think these rumors are dead on-
iindigo
Although it would be neat to have liquid cooling...
I also think these rumors are dead on-
iindigo
ok one thing you will not see is dual layer superdrive. These drives just came out a few months ago and there isn't any media for them yet in the US market. (it's $13 a pop in Japan) so be happy with an 8x burner for now. Asking for dual layer right now is expecting apple to throw in ati x800 cards. I'd be happy if the 9700 128MB was standard.
Tyler
Tyler
TyleRomeo said:
Might that change, considering that Sony, Pioneer, and others are manufacturing drives, and that the first company is selling them here in the US? It seems a bit odd to be producing a drive that there wouldn't be media for.
Ah, so it's a reasonable but outside chance at technology from companies that have historically been pretty decent to Apple, but not always the quickest to move with them? Neither the ATI x800 nor dual-layer DVDs should be ruled out, though I don't think that people should necessarily be expecting them either.
Ysean said:
Yes, Sorrry, I ment PCI Express. I am actually very well technically informed, sorry that I mis re-called a name. Maybe you should understand this site is to inform people, and not to insult them about their information. That being said, thanks for the correction...
Facts
I don't care if there will be dual-layer superdrives, as I won't be getting one. However, I will be buying a G5 with the upcoming update (whenever that is), and I'll get a combo drive and then go buy a pioneer DVR-07 for cheap (currently $92). All I care about is that the update brings PCI-Express, and room for more than 2 hard drives. It's a given the processors will be faster, and since I'm on a 450 Mhz G4 whatever they turn out to be will be speedy to me. I've been waiting since the end of Jan. to get a new machine, but I have to hold out until the update. It better be WWDC or I'm going to go insane. Curse the rumor sites for constantly putting a carrot in front of me!
I don't care if there will be dual-layer superdrives, as I won't be getting one. However, I will be buying a G5 with the upcoming update (whenever that is), and I'll get a combo drive and then go buy a pioneer DVR-07 for cheap (currently $92). All I care about is that the update brings PCI-Express, and room for more than 2 hard drives. It's a given the processors will be faster, and since I'm on a 450 Mhz G4 whatever they turn out to be will be speedy to me. I've been waiting since the end of Jan. to get a new machine, but I have to hold out until the update. It better be WWDC or I'm going to go insane. Curse the rumor sites for constantly putting a carrot in front of me!
syndicatex, you might want to pull on the reigns a bit. i'm not discrediting facts here, i'm putting doubt to a wholly outlandish speculation.
1: the only real fact here is that each one of the features listed is the next significant advance in its respective hardware category. when is the last time apple released a machine with so many changes at once? although close, i don't even think the g5 was as different from its predecessors (revamped motherboard, 64bit, speed bump, sata) as this list is from current systems.
2: apple, like most companies, needs money. they'll be able to keep sales up longer by spreading out new features over a period of months, regardless of whether the technology is present to provide them now at consumer prices. every so often apple goes for a big upgrade, but it's not probable.
in regards to your argument, i don't really want to get into all that. other people have already pointed out false statements, misused terminology, and incorrectly cited sources within your post, and the only thing i could add is that your grasp of ibm's ppc roadmap, both past and future, seems a little off. refine before you flame, please.
1: the only real fact here is that each one of the features listed is the next significant advance in its respective hardware category. when is the last time apple released a machine with so many changes at once? although close, i don't even think the g5 was as different from its predecessors (revamped motherboard, 64bit, speed bump, sata) as this list is from current systems.
2: apple, like most companies, needs money. they'll be able to keep sales up longer by spreading out new features over a period of months, regardless of whether the technology is present to provide them now at consumer prices. every so often apple goes for a big upgrade, but it's not probable.
in regards to your argument, i don't really want to get into all that. other people have already pointed out false statements, misused terminology, and incorrectly cited sources within your post, and the only thing i could add is that your grasp of ibm's ppc roadmap, both past and future, seems a little off. refine before you flame, please.
thatwendigo said:
i think you must be the hardest person to disagree with on this forum because you just happen to know so much, but the 970fx DOES run at 24.5 watts @ 2.0ghz. Just providing some sources to good information everyone needs.
And If apple used the new Hitachi 7200rpm drives (considering when they make larger ones) they use about 2.5 watts. So if IBM can work out the kinks in their 90nm processors, it is very possible to see it in a g5 notebook, with hardly much change in temp or fan noise.
If anyone can do it, it's Apple, though.
Amen to that, thats why I never think something is too far off from apple successfully doing it. I still am baffled everyday looking at this gorgeous 17" powerbook of how exactly they managed to do it!
mangoduck said:
True, but what else are they really upgrading? Processor, dvd drive, an upgraded graphics card? Those all seem pretty reasonable to me even with adding some extra drive bays. Personally I just believe that is the way technology is today. A decade ago, it took years to make a 100mhz jump in cpu speed, now we've gone from cd burners, to dvd burners, to the next evolution of dual layered burners in no time at all. Advancements arent as expensive as they once were so it is much easier to fully adopt brand new technology for hardly any difference in the customers final cost. (From the sonystyle site, dual layer drive with every format possible 199$. How much more is that than the superdrive costs to produce? Not much probably.)
And 1 example I would have is the 17" powerbook, no one had 17" screens, widescreens at that! Wireless built in, bluetooth, firewire, backlight keyboard. At the time it was revolutionary, and considering that NO ONE has even come close to duplicating the 1" form factor and general beauty of it since its release, I think it shows a great deal how much farther ahead Apple is of alot of its competitors, even on their comparitively miniscule budget.
I disagree, while all companies need sales, Apple needs publicity. They continue to create products that amaze people that have never paid attention to them and that is the only way they continue to survive in a MS / x86 cursed world. If they just put out products on par with other companies, then no one cares. But when they can put out a tv commercial advertising a dual 3ghz 64 bit computer with dual dvd drives and blah blah...most of the public doesnt follow these things daily as some of us do, adn to them it is the first time they hear about "dual layer drives" and all the other technology just now coming out, and when they see it their jaws drop and they say "wow, thats pretty sweet!" while they look at their crappy beige or black plastic PC.
If they can continually impress non-mac users into remembering that and evven looking into it and eventually see the great things they never knew existed (OS X, for example), thats what apple truly needs, not just every mac user out there to go out and buy a new G5.
Ill be the first to admit to it. I do know what Im talking about but at the time I had only read a section of this thread, and i really didnt care to take the time to write a novel to express every technological aspect of the argument. In haste I summarized it, never read it, and posted it and it came across wrong because i didnt point out alot of things that to me are just common sense. No, the POWER5 is not going to be in the next mac, but its deriviant, the 975 or 980 (whatever IBM decides to call it) will be, I assure you. The 970 is a great processor, but it isnt the processor that is going to take apple where it wants to go. The 970fx had potential to be a good transitional processor from the 970 to something else, but there are to many bugs, Apples not here because they do what everyone thinks they are going to do, they are here because they always manage to suprise us, even though we pour through the rumor mills daily and think we know it all, Steve Jobs always has a good little secret up his sleeve.