Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[537635]

Some posts here are just ridiculous.

Imagine having a car, which exhibits a fault, which requieres a replacement of one third of that car. But, wow, you get a 4 year warranty. After that it will cost 1/3 of the price of a new car to service it. And you never know when you're gonna need that service. Once a year, twice a year, maybe after 2-3 years... nobody can actually tell you or guarantee that.

Sorry, but that's a crappy car. And a crappy company, which traded quality and good name for pennies.


My history:
#1 December 2016 - purchased MBP 15
#2 May 2017 - keyboard starts failing - sticky keys (topcase replaced in August)
#3 November 2017 - keyboard starts failing - sticky keys (topcase replaced in December)
#4 December 2017 - keyboard start failing right after service - dead key (replaced in January 2018)
#5 May 2018 - keyboard starts failing again - sticky keys (Apple replaces entire laptop with a 2018 model)
#6 January 2019 - occasional double key presses start creeping up (keyboard replaced in October 2019)

## December 2019 - occasional double key presses start appearing again


So that's 6 (six!) keyboard on a laptop, bought 3 years ago.

So please tell me again, that the newest, newest butterfly keyboard iteration *might* last and the problem is actually solved.

 

[Appledoesnotlisten]

I am sorry to hear about your sufferings.

I have had 3 butterfly laptops and my wife has one (she is a heavy-heavy) typer. No single keyboard problem, though have had enough of other problems.

Maybe your fingers are not a good fit for this keyboard or you live in a dusty place with a lot of sand and do not clean? Or maybe you eat with your laptop? Your 6 (six!) is outstanding.

Imagine having a car, which exhibits a fault

...but the seats are so comfortable (the keyboard) that you don't want a new one with better milage.

After that it will cost 1/3 of the price of a new car to service it.

Since you already own it, you have already absorbed the depreciation hit. The 16" is out, sorry for all of the 15" owners.

Sorry, but that's a crappy car. And a crappy company, which traded quality and good name for pennies.

They partially made it up with the 4 year warranty (that includes battery replacement), which is plenty. Who knows, they might even extend it even more down the road.

 

[537635]

Oh with the eating behind the computer again. This is what I meant by "ridiculous". All other keyboards are resilient. People have been using them for decades. Yes, a crumb got there once in a while and rendered the key inoperable so you had to use a vacuum cleaner which solved the problem instantly.

This is a single unique instance in computer history, where the most important input device failed so miserably. On top of that that said input device is almost irreplaceable and one third of the device needs to be replaced.

So again, no I do not eat behind a computer, it is mostly stationary in a relatively clean apartment, where it lives on a desk. For a while I also used a keyboard protector, no change.
I do use it though. I type very fast, and computer is often used for video rendering. For business purposes. You know, not like an iPad.

So it might also be you who simply uses the computer for simple content consumption and doesn't type fast enough to notice these faults.

 

[Appledoesnotlisten]

Oh with the eating behind the computer again. This is what I meant by "ridiculous". All other keyboards are resilient. People have been using them for decades. Yes, a crumb got there once in a while and rendered the key inoperable so you had to use a vacuum cleaner which solved the problem instantly.

This is a single unique instance in computer history, where the most important input device failed so miserably. On top of that that said input device is almost irreplaceable and one third of the device needs to be replaced.

So again, no I do not eat behind a computer, it is mostly stationary in a relatively clean apartment, where it lives on a desk. For a while I also used a keyboard protector, no change.
I do use it though. I type very fast, and computer is often used for video rendering. For business purposes. You know, not like an iPad.

So it might also be you who simply uses the computer for simple content consumption and doesn't type fast enough to notice these faults.

I don't type that much, but my wife DOES. All the problems I had were battery, motherboard and SSD related. Again, my 2012 Retina MBP required 2-3 repairs, so I can't say that this generation is THAT worse. I might replace one of the 2017 15" with a 16", but will definitely miss that 2017 butterfly.

 

[MCKLMT]

Now Apple has released a new keyboard for the MacBook 16, is it still a good idea to buy a MacBook 13 with the old one?

 

[Mainsail]

I am confused. Is this thread about the third generation keyboard released in the summer of 2019, or is it a general list of complaints about the older BF keyboards? Most of the posts seem to be an echo chamber of problems related to the older designs, which we all know were flawed.

I admit to not reading every post, but it seems like very few of these complaints have to do with the 2019 BF Keyboard.

 

[537635]

I am confused. Is this thread about the third generation keyboard released in the summer of 2019, or is it a general list of complaints about the older BF keyboards? Most of the posts seem to be an echo chamber of problems related to the older designs, which we all know were flawed.

I admit to not reading every post, but it seems like very few of these complaints have to do with the 2019 BF Keyboard.

This is a thread from July 2018. So before mocking others, make sure you know what you're talking about.

Otherwise I'll admit this is a confusing topic.


Short Apple Butterfly keyboard history:

1st gen: 2015 Macbook
2nd gen: 2016 Macbook Pro
3rd gen: 2017 Macbook Pro (Apple never acknowledged this, although there is slight change in key design, and some indications that it was also a mechanism redesign), same change for 2017 Macbook
4th gen: 2018 Macbook Pro (additional silicone barrier)
5th gen: 2019 Macbook Pro (dome redesign) - most probably the final redesign. I don't believe we'll see another new Apple product with this type of keyboard.


So 2016 and 2017 are interchangeable, so are 2018 and 2019. Personally I've had them all and saw all of them fail miserably. In October they replaced the 2018 topcase with the 2019 topcase and I'm already seeing sporadic double key presses. So there you go.

 

[Mainsail]

This is a thread from July 2018. So before mocking others, make sure you know what you're talking about.

Otherwise I'll admit this is a confusing topic.


Short Apple Butterfly keyboard history:

1st gen: 2015 Macbook
2nd gen: 2016 Macbook Pro
3rd gen: 2017 Macbook Pro (Apple never acknowledged this, although there is slight change in key design, and some indications that it was also a mechanism redesign), same change for 2017 Macbook
4th gen: 2018 Macbook Pro (additional silicone barrier)
5th gen: 2019 Macbook Pro (dome redesign) - most probably the final redesign. I don't believe we'll see another new Apple product with this type of keyboard.


So 2016 and 2017 are interchangeable, so are 2018 and 2019. Personally I've had them all and saw all of them fail miserably. In October they replaced the 2018 topcase with the 2019 topcase and I'm already seeing sporadic double key presses. So there you go.

No mocking intended. Just seems like we are seeing very few complaints about the 2019 BF KB....just an observation. It has been in the wild for over 6 months with millions of laptops, and I rarely see someone post an issue. At this stage, the boards were full of issues about the older KBs. Given that the BF KB is under the microscope, it seems like the 2019 version is holding up pretty well. It is easy for the casual reader to merge all of these things together (it is a bit of an echo chamber) and just assume that the problems that people have with the 2015 MacBook persist with the latest version.

Also, you are right, the 2019 KB replaced the dome switch with one made of hardened material. In addition, the silicone membrane was replaced with nylon. The theory is that nylon is less tacky and less susceptible to dust and dirt.

Edit: BTW - I have had occasional double press on every keyboard I have ever owned for the last 30 years. But, I am a terrible typist so I chalk it up to me. Haven’t had the issue with my 2019 MBA, so far....

 

[537635]

It is still early. Redesign might have just postponed things. At this point it is extremely difficult to argue that butterfly mechanism isn't an inherently flawed design.

1. Keyboard needs to be resilient.
2. Has to have good mechanical tolerances.
3. Needs to be easily serviced.

HP, Lenovo... all three are true. Apple... not a single one.


I am a light typist (as in don't press hard on keys) and it pains me that I actually like typing on these keyboards.

 

[Mainsail]

Yep. You have to weigh the pros and cons of every laptop to decide what is best for you. The 2019 KB seems to be an improvement. In addition, there is the extend warranty, so I am comfortable with it. Others might not be. I get it.

Just be aware that every laptop has a soft spot. Everyone thought the 16in MBP was going to be the perfect machine with the new scissor mechanism, and it will probably be great for most people. But, MR is chuck full of complaints about all kinds of 16in MBP issues unrelated to the KB. Actually, there are even people complaining that they don't like the feel of the scissor keyboard.....so go figure.

 

[jgorman]

The odd and cruel part of this butterfly keyboard situation is that everyone paid good money for a laptop with a good keyboard, but even if people use the four-year service program, Apple just replaces faulty keyboards with faulty keyboards.

Furthermore, since Apple does not tell people about this issue at the point of sale, it is more a latent "surprise present" after people start using, and perhaps relying on, their machines.

Then down the line, say a person decides to sell their machine and upgrade, how do they in good conscience sell their machines with this keyboard after the service program expires? If they add a disclosure about the keyboard and the cost of a top case replacement, who would buy it at a reasonable price?

Apple's handling of this just strikes me as dishonest.

 

[ap123ap]

The main reason for me returning my 2018 MBP is the fact that Apple seem to think it’s acceptable to replace faulty hardware with equally faulty hardware. WTF. These machines are supposed to be premium line. How can be justified?? It was painful returning my machine this weekend made by a brand that I have truly grown to love but it had to be done.

 

[Mainsail]

The main reason for me returning my 2018 MBP is the fact that Apple seem to think it’s acceptable to replace faulty hardware with equally faulty hardware. WTF. These machines are supposed to be premium line. How can be justified?? It was painful returning my machine this weekend made by a brand that I have truly grown to love but it had to be done.

Actually, I believe the 2018 models get the 2019 KB replacement, which has a hardened dome switch and nylon (less tacky/sticky) vs silicon membrane. So, in your case, it isn't exactly an identical swap. But, I get the frustration.

 

[ap123ap]

Actually, I believe the 2018 models get the 2019 KB replacement, which has a hardened dome switch and nylon (less tacky/sticky) vs silicon membrane. So, in your case, it isn't exactly an identical swap. But, I get the frustration.

Yes, rumours seem to indicate that 2019 keyboards replace 2018 failures, with butterfly keyboards that also fail, that are also covered by the replacement program. ‘Thanks Apple for replacing my watery poo with a hardened turd.’

Jokes aside, frustration is strong!

 

[Viamusic10000]

The odd and cruel part of this butterfly keyboard situation is that everyone paid good money for a laptop with a good keyboard, but even if people use the four-year service program, Apple just replaces faulty keyboards with faulty keyboards.

Furthermore, since Apple does not tell people about this issue at the point of sale, it is more a latent "surprise present" after people start using, and perhaps relying on, their machines.

Then down the line, say a person decides to sell their machine and upgrade, how do they in good conscience sell their machines with this keyboard after the service program expires? If they add a disclosure about the keyboard and the cost of a top case replacement, who would buy it at a reasonable price?

Apple's handling of this just strikes me as dishonest.

Of course. Apple is the 6th largest company in the world. You think they care about you? Were just customers in a spreadsheet at the end of the day. I like the design, os and ecosystem but I have no illusions about Apple. They suck and are too big to fail.

 

[clinkinfo2]

Oh with the eating behind the computer again. This is what I meant by "ridiculous". All other keyboards are resilient. People have been using them for decades. Yes, a crumb got there once in a while and rendered the key inoperable so you had to use a vacuum cleaner which solved the problem instantly.

This is a single unique instance in computer history, where the most important input device failed so miserably. On top of that that said input device is almost irreplaceable and one third of the device needs to be replaced.

So again, no I do not eat behind a computer, it is mostly stationary in a relatively clean apartment, where it lives on a desk. For a while I also used a keyboard protector, no change.
I do use it though. I type very fast, and computer is often used for video rendering. For business purposes. You know, not like an iPad.

So it might also be you who simply uses the computer for simple content consumption and doesn't type fast enough to notice these faults.

It's got nothing to do with eating and using the computer. I know that Apple defenders love to try and jump on people for that. But I've had 5 failures and food has never even entered the room where my machine is. Just like you, it stays on a desk in a clean house.

The problem I believe after reading many threads and applying some of my own analysis and logic is in typing styles. I'm a very heavy typer. I have a heavy stroke, which has lead to carpal tunnel and other issues. I don't want to have it, it just is. I believe from some other conversations, those of us who are prone to this typing style tend to induce the failures far more often then people who type lightly.

I even notices on my last failure of the 2016, the space bar where I was hitting (right side) seemed deformed and bent down lower than the left side. The butterfly low travel keyboard doesn't seem to get along with heavy typing users.
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This is a thread from July 2018. So before mocking others, make sure you know what you're talking about.

Otherwise I'll admit this is a confusing topic.


Short Apple Butterfly keyboard history:

1st gen: 2015 Macbook
2nd gen: 2016 Macbook Pro
3rd gen: 2017 Macbook Pro (Apple never acknowledged this, although there is slight change in key design, and some indications that it was also a mechanism redesign), same change for 2017 Macbook
4th gen: 2018 Macbook Pro (additional silicone barrier)
5th gen: 2019 Macbook Pro (dome redesign) - most probably the final redesign. I don't believe we'll see another new Apple product with this type of keyboard.


So 2016 and 2017 are interchangeable, so are 2018 and 2019. Personally I've had them all and saw all of them fail miserably. In October they replaced the 2018 topcase with the 2019 topcase and I'm already seeing sporadic double key presses. So there you go.

So this is just an observation after reading so much about the problem (because I've suffered with it many times already):

The 2015/2016/2017 designs seems to be very prone to keys getting "stuck" and not working anymore.
The 2018/2019 complaints seem to revolve around multiple keypresses and duplicate entry issues.

Obviously that's not a scientific analysis or anything, but it does seem to be a trend I've noticed when reading through the problem threads all over.
[automerge]1578872037[/automerge]

I am confused. Is this thread about the third generation keyboard released in the summer of 2019, or is it a general list of complaints about the older BF keyboards? Most of the posts seem to be an echo chamber of problems related to the older designs, which we all know were flawed.

I admit to not reading every post, but it seems like very few of these complaints have to do with the 2019 BF Keyboard.

They are all the same general design. The point of many of the posters is, all of the tweaks that have been attempted by Apple have failed (silicone covers, new "materials"). The overall design is flawed and is highly likely to be removed entirely because of it. If the 2019 version had finally worked, we wouldn't have seen the 16" move back to the old keyboard. The 13" models are highly likely to follow in the next announcement. And yes, there are many complaints still about the 2019 version failing. Just look 1 quote above yours.

 

[Mainsail]

It is doubtful that 2019 BF KB reliability data had anything to do with the scissor design in the 16in MBP. The 16in MBP design was probably already baked in before the 2019 KB was even released.

There is no comparison in the number of complaints posted about the 2019 KB and the prior KBs. I am not saying there are zero problems, but people would have repeat keys and stuck keys before there was ever a butterfly KB. Given the focus it gets, I rarely see complaints about the 2019 KB reliability. There were pages and pages of complaints about the older ones.

BTW - least we think there such a thing as a flawless laptop, just check out the complaints about the new 16in MBP. This forum is flooded with them. Not KB problems per se. But it is far from flawless.

 

[clinkinfo2]

It is doubtful that 2019 BF KB reliability data had anything to do with the scissor design in the 16in MBP. The 16in MBP design was probably already baked in before the 2019 KB was even released.

There is no comparison in the number of complaints posted about the 2019 KB and the prior KBs. I am not saying there are zero problems, but people would have repeat keys and stuck keys before there was ever a butterfly KB. Given the focus it gets, I rarely see complaints about the 2019 KB reliability. There were pages and pages of complaints about the older ones.

BTW - least we think there such a thing as a flawless laptop, just check out the complaints about the new 16in MBP. This forum is flooded with them. Not KB problems per se. But it is far from flawless.

we can agree to disagree about the 2019 complaints, but as a reminder, the BF keyboard has been out for 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018. That’s 4 years of users to complain, versus only 1 year of 2019 purchasers.so your perception might be influenced by the simply number of users already on prior models. And in my experience, it took about 6-12 months for the first failure If I remember correctly (but maybe I wasn’t using it much at first).

no one said the 16” is a perfect design, everything comes with trade offs, design decisions, and manufacturing quality goals . BUT, I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone that would argue a mobile computer design that can’t allow character input is a reasonable design, trade off, or acceptable manufacturing defect. It’s pretty fundament to a computer and has been successfully accomplished since the start.

i would agree, the 2019 reliability data probably wasn’t available yet BUT I would imagine apple themselves were unhappy with the failure rate of prior models AND their own internal testing of the 2019 Design. If they were happy and confident with the 2019 design change, it would have stayed.

 

[Demis013]

Hi guys, just a question for all of you who has brought a MBP with the 2018 butterfly keyboard in for a repair: did everyone of you backup the laptop before bringing it in for a repair and has it ever happened that the laptop was indeed restored to the factory settings? I'm curious because I want to know how thoroughly I have to do my backup...

 

[clinkinfo2]

Hi guys, just a question for all of you who has brought a MBP with the 2018 butterfly keyboard in for a repair: did everyone of you backup the laptop before bringing it in for a repair and has it ever happened that the laptop was indeed restored to the factory settings? I'm curious because I want to know how thoroughly I have to do my backup...

yes, fully back it up. It normally comes back with everything still there, but I did have one repair where it was reset completely and I had to restore from the time machine backup.

 

[markedlymac]

Well well well.

News about my return of my 2018 MBP.

They tested my keyboard and independently confirmed my repeating 'A' key.

And they made - in my opinion - quite the coup of an admission, aat least in terms of PR.

In my case, I bought this 2018 machine from Harvey Norman. So for a refund (and re-purchase asa my reasonable method for replacement), under Consumer Law, it has to go through HN as they're the point of sale.

Harvey Norman told me eaarly on that for them to issue this refund they need a piece of paper from Apple saying 'maajor failure'. (That's the big buzzword under Consumer Law which means the consumer can then demand a refund.)

Today I asked for exactly thaat. But the genius said that, legally, Apple have advised all their employees that they cannot or will not ever put those two infamous words in writing.

(For reference, the five possible criteria for 'major problem' are advised by ACCC here. In my case, 2-3 of those five criteria, in my mind, apply.)

But amazingly, they admitted this in writing:

"Replace top case w/keyboard with identical replacement part at no cost to customer. Customer understands that new part will be exactly as prone to key failure as the design remains unchanged."

I cana't wait for Norman's response to this piece of paper: Apple STATING, in effect, that the only repair option will only result in the problem coming back!

I'll take this to Harvey Norman, and keep you updated on my mini drama.

And if I need to go the the NSW Tribunal to enforce my refund, this written statement from the manufacturer is a powerful piece of evidence and a damning written dmission which essentially states that the only manufaacturer 'repair' remedy for the 2018 MBP model does NOT resolve the keyboard problem, for the consumer. Therefore, it can only be assumed that a replacement with a completely different model with a different "design" (in Apple's words), can.

BTW, I'm happy to privately send my original report to anyone who may need my repaair asa evidence in their own casae.

I have more I could share but I'm tired of this issue and I now have a 16-inch model and just want it out of my life forever. The genius told me some very interesting and alarming things about the defect of the butterfly keyboard which I haad never read anywhere before and reveal how pathetically bad this design was. Anyone want to hear that detail, while it's fresh in my mind? If not, who cares, I just wish this isue didn't exist in the first place...

 

[Mainsail]

Well well well.

News about my return of my 2018 MBP.

They tested my keyboard and independently confirmed my repeating 'A' key.

And they made - in my opinion - quite the coup of an admission, aat least in terms of PR.

In my case, I bought this 2018 machine from Harvey Norman. So for a refund (and re-purchase asa my reasonable method for replacement), under Consumer Law, it has to go through HN as they're the point of sale.

Harvey Norman told me eaarly on that for them to issue this refund they need a piece of paper from Apple saying 'maajor failure'. (That's the big buzzword under Consumer Law which means the consumer can then demand a refund.)

Today I asked for exactly thaat. But the genius said that, legally, Apple have advised all their employees that they cannot or will not ever put those two infamous words in writing.

(For reference, the five possible criteria for 'major problem' are advised by ACCC here. In my case, 2-3 of those five criteria, in my mind, apply.)

But amazingly, they admitted this in writing:

"Replace top case w/keyboard with identical replacement part at no cost to customer. Customer understands that new part will be exactly as prone to key failure as the design remains unchanged."

I cana't wait for Norman's response to this piece of paper: Apple STATING, in effect, that the only repair option will only result in the problem coming back!

I'll take this to Harvey Norman, and keep you updated on my mini drama.

And if I need to go the the NSW Tribunal to enforce my refund, this written statement from the manufacturer is a powerful piece of evidence and a damning written dmission which essentially states that the only manufaacturer 'repair' remedy for the 2018 MBP model does NOT resolve the keyboard problem, for the consumer. Therefore, it can only be assumed that a replacement with a completely different model with a different "design" (in Apple's words), can.

BTW, I'm happy to privately send my original report to anyone who may need my repaair asa evidence in their own casae.

I have more I could share but I'm tired of this issue and I now have a 16-inch model and just want it out of my life forever. The genius told me some very interesting and alarming things about the defect of the butterfly keyboard which I haad never read anywhere before and reveal how pathetically bad this design was. Anyone want to hear that detail, while it's fresh in my mind? If not, who cares, I just wish this isue didn't exist in the first place...

This is a bummer. Under the repair program, I thought Apple was replacing 2018 BF KBs with the 2019 version. It sounds like you are going to get an identical part for your 2018 MBP. That doesn’t seem fair.

 

[Roadstar]

I have more I could share but I'm tired of this issue and I now have a 16-inch model and just want it out of my life forever. The genius told me some very interesting and alarming things about the defect of the butterfly keyboard which I haad never read anywhere before and reveal how pathetically bad this design was. Anyone want to hear that detail, while it's fresh in my mind? If not, who cares, I just wish this isue didn't exist in the first place...

I'm interested in that detail. I think the news about Mac sales dropping while PCs are growing are at least partly due to the butterfly keyboard. Seems to be such an expensive mistake for Apple.

 

[markedlymac]

He said that the repeating keys issue is originally caused by the dust. it gets under the key and causes that delicate metal part to bend and warp because it's being crushed against that piece of dust.

(so we can deduce how that causes the repeating / missing / haphazardness to happen. The metal part probably gets stuck on the debris or is always having to lift it up and down since it's stuck to it, this ridiculously thin design was an absolute disaster.)

Also, he said it causes a visible depression in the affected key. Looking across my Keyboard, He looked at my A key and confirmed that as another way to know I had the keyboard issue.

That's good to know for anyone else having trouble proving the defect to a genius, I guess.

Crazy.

Maybe this was publicly known info from other people's reported experiences already, but boy was this new to me.

Hopefully I have to never talk about this pathetic defect once my 2018 model is refunded to me by Harvey Norman.

 

[maflynn]

I think the news about Mac sales dropping while PCs are growing are at least partly due to the butterfly keyboard.

I think the butterfly keyboard hasn't helped apple sales, but I'd go out on a limb and say that's not the only reason for apple's shrinking market share. Price is probably the biggest factor imo, then there's the lack of innovation. While apple obsessed with making their laptops thinner, PC makers added improved their laptops, rolling out some nice improvements and also trying some daring designs (such as dual screen)