GM had the 4.5 liter Duramax in development for their half-ton trucks, but the economy and their situation canned that. Ford also was working on a baby Powerstroke and Cummins was working on a baby I-6 for Dodge. But, those as well have been canned.
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GM Considers diesel engine for Chevy Cruze
- Thread starter Lord Blackadder
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GM had the 4.5 liter Duramax in development for their half-ton trucks, but the economy and their situation canned that. Ford also was working on a baby Powerstroke and Cummins was working on a baby I-6 for Dodge. But, those as well have been canned.
I actually saw a prototype 4.5 Duramax on ebay about a year ago. A few of them are probably out in the wild somewhere - shame they killed it, it was a good idea.
The big three had little choice but to cancel a lot of programs in the last couple years due to the financial crisis, but America needs a company to develop a range of smaller diesel engines suitable for auto applications - not the least of which would be a diesel-powered version of the Volt.
takao said:
One would assume GM would use the new engine in any Cruze diesel here in the USA? If, of course, they actually do sell this here. I say do it, GM.
Diesel is no less refined than gasoline - it's a product of the exact same refinement process.
Different carbon chains are gently boiled off by gradually raising the temperature of the crude. The smaller molecules are the first to burn off. Typically carbon chains 5-8 (pentane through octane) are sold as "gasoline." The next four or so are sold as "kerosene," or jet fuel. After that comes what we call "diesel." Each is as pure as the others, but diesel is made of larger, more complex carbon chains.
I can see both sides of the diesel engine argument. It's hard to deny that diesel engines are, other things being equal, more fuel-efficient than gasoline engines. The higher compression ratio equals greater power output per gallon and greater torque. In the larger sizes that we usually see in trucks, they seem to last longer than gasoline engines, too. But the damn things are noisy, and the exhaust smells really bad.
That may be true of the huge American diesel truck engines, but go examine a new VW, BMW or Mercedes diesel and you'll see that this is just not the case anymore. They sound a little different, smell a little different, but not worse than gasoline - it's just that we are so used to gas engines that everything else is assumed to be worse somehow.
This. You can barely even smell the exhaust - if at all - even from the new truck engines with DPFs. The Cummins ISB in the Dodge, in particular, is effectively odorless (though they were having durability problems with their DPFs - dunno if that's solved yet or not).
That said though, right this moment I'm very glad I don't have to buy diesel fuel. The price per gallon for #2 is hovering right around $4/gallon at all the stations near me (North San Diego County).
and VW with their darn PumpeDüse engines sure didn't help ... the PD concept was always good for saving fuel but those engines could have easily put into a tractor pulling contest
today IMHO the german carmaker diesels are leading the way only in fuel usage and torque ratings. In regards to emissions & noise/smooth running the french (PSA) and Fiat have very likely taken over
and yeah it has mostly has to do with trucks using the diesel engines.. because you know even her in europe those trucks are smelly and noisy ... even if yourself are driving in a diesel behind them
today IMHO the german carmaker diesels are leading the way only in fuel usage and torque ratings. In regards to emissions & noise/smooth running the french (PSA) and Fiat have very likely taken over
and yeah it has mostly has to do with trucks using the diesel engines.. because you know even her in europe those trucks are smelly and noisy ... even if yourself are driving in a diesel behind them
That could be true, but I can't verify it - simply because I don't really see any of those around here....
...This, on the other hand, has not been my experience at all.
I live out in the country (horse and cattle farms), and about half the pickups out here are 3/4 ton and 1 ton diesels, mostly Chevys and Fords. Following one down the highway it's hard to hear them, but if you're behind one you can damn sure smell it - and yes, I'm talking about the new ones, too.
Caveat - you specifically mentioned a Dodge, and I don't recall seeing (or smelling) any of those around here lately.
A friend of mine owns a 2009 Jetta TDI, and another friend owns a 2003(ish) Golf TDI. The new Jetta is significantly better than the Golf with the older generation diesel, but even the Golf's engine is much more refined than a diesel truck engine.
I live in Alaska, and they love their big diesel trucks here. I can agree that pretty much all of them stink awfully when you drive behind them. Also, performance modifications are pretty popular, so that with re-tuned ECUs and free-flowing exhausts, the damned things are positively deafening and noxious. The older trucks are definitely much worse than the newest models though.
Can't speak to the new DPF-equipped trucks, I haven't had enough experience with them. Hopefully, the increasingly stringent economy and pollution regulations will continue to make pickup diesels less and less similar to the dumptruck, semi and bulldozer engines we currently associate them with.
Still, the bottom line is, passenger car diesel engines from Germany and Italy in particular are excellent and nothing like the big clunkers in American trucks. If a diesel Cruze makes it here, it will be very smooth and quiet by comparison.
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there are videos on youtube of 2.0 diesel cruze owners sprinting to 200+ km/h and apart of reving higher it doesn't sound that bad... over 150 the wind noise sure gets quite noisy though
but it shows that even on the diesel that last gear change is coming around 180km/h which means for legal highway cruising speed that last gear isn't going to have to work much
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3404FpjqPB8
in germany though it means you are banned from the left lane if it takes you so long to hit 200
in germany though it means you are banned from the left lane if it takes you so long to hit 200
Apparently the diesel Cruze tops out at 210 km/h (130ish mph); I'm somewhat surprised it goes that fast, though it has decent power and torque. My 1999 Nissan Altima manual was governed to 120mph, and although I did hit 120 in it once
o), it had over 1500rpms left before redline, so it could probably have hit 130mph or more.
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Something amiss with your numbers.
130 mph is on the order of 210 kph.
120 kph is actually closer to 75 mph.
Wikipedia states the Toyota Prius 3rd Gen gets a combined AFE of 50 mpg (4.7L US gallons) if the diesel Cruze gets 37/48, that would give it a median AFE of 42.5 — 85% of what the Prius gets.
OTOH, they say "Drive a Toyota, you'll never stop!" and, "Toyota, the last car you'll ever drive."
OTOOH, Chevy? Yeesh. You might as well have XP on an Acer.
OTOH, they say "Drive a Toyota, you'll never stop!" and, "Toyota, the last car you'll ever drive."
OTOOH, Chevy? Yeesh. You might as well have XP on an Acer.
Against this you have to factor in the presumably lower cost of the Cruze, somewhat higher performance, lower cost to maintain, and lack of the battery pack with all it's complexity, carbon footprint, and cost.
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Are the Diesel versions built in Germany?
The Jetta I have is a 2000 1.8T, assembled in Puebla, and I would not call it "well-built" at all. I won't go so far as to call it a lemon, but there's evidence of poor engineering and poor assembly throughout the car. I suppose it was a first-year model...
In hindsight, I do wish I'd have gotten the Diesel variant of the era, but all in all, I still think I could've done better with a Honda. YMMV.
Nope, the new Jetta is built in Mexico. Off the top of my head, I'd say that the only German-built Volkswagens you can buy in the USA are the GTI and Tiguan. The Phaeton and R32 are (or were) also German-made. The Touareg is built in Slovakia, the Routan is built by Chrysler, and the Jetta, non-GTI Golf (except the R32) and New Beetles are all made in Mexico. Not sure about the Eos.
My father bought a 1988 Jetta brand new and it was a lemon. It had every issue under the sun, not the least of which is that it rusted terribly in five years (big holes in the floor and wheelwells!). I agree that the Mexican-built Volksawgens have struggled with build quality at times over the years, but that sweet Audi 1.8 turbo was a great motor.
As for the Cruze, I'm not sure how GM would manage a US-market diesel version. My best guess is that the diesel model would be built alongside the other US-market Cruzes at the Lordstown, OH assembly plant using complete VM Motori engines shipped from Italy.
My father bought a 1988 Jetta brand new and it was a lemon. It had every issue under the sun, not the least of which is that it rusted terribly in five years (big holes in the floor and wheelwells!). I agree that the Mexican-built Volksawgens have struggled with build quality at times over the years, but that sweet Audi 1.8 turbo was a great motor.
As for the Cruze, I'm not sure how GM would manage a US-market diesel version. My best guess is that the diesel model would be built alongside the other US-market Cruzes at the Lordstown, OH assembly plant using complete VM Motori engines shipped from Italy.
the fact that after the second generation Jetta, VW had to rename the car in germany/europe (Bora, Vento) and still had lousy sales there, should have been a warning sign
the last few generations of the jetta have been absolute rubbish ... i hoping this new generation is actually better
the last few generations of the jetta have been absolute rubbish ... i hoping this new generation is actually better
Mexico may come around, in time.
Japan sure did, Korea has, and China is well on it's way.
I started a thread about the new Passat and Jetta a little while back. Basically, the new Jetta is bigger, costs less, and uses cheaper materials. People expecting Golf-like levels of refinement and build quality will be disappointed.
And it went from looking like nothing else to looking like everything else.
I don't find it ugly, necessarily, but when I see one, I always think "Corolla!" - until I get closer, and then I think "Kia!"
I will give it the benefit of the doubt until I get a chance to test drive it.
Apropos to our discussion here, if Volkswagen takes the Jetta downmarket, that will bode well for GM and the Cruze diesel, which may be able to equal or exceed the new Jetta TDI's level of equipment, refinement and pricepoint.
Apropos to our discussion here, if Volkswagen takes the Jetta downmarket, that will bode well for GM and the Cruze diesel, which may be able to equal or exceed the new Jetta TDI's level of equipment, refinement and pricepoint.
A bit off-topic, but why haven't car manufacturers created hybrid cars that use a diesel engine + battery? There are lots of petrol-electric hybrids, but not diesel.
Volvo has recently launched a diesl hybrid (V60 Hybrid) with a claimed 124 US mpg
http://www.volvocars.com/uk/campaigns/hybrid/Pages/default.aspx
Also note seeing as we are an apple related board
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorshows/geneva-motor-show/264535/volvo_v60_diesel_plugin_hybrid.html
i haven't seen either in the flesh yet to be honest... GM selling the cruze in europe without a hatchback version for 2 years simply was a mistake
if you want to be successful in europe as mass car maker you have to:
1. offer a diesel
2. offer a hatchback if its a small car/ offer a station wagon if it's a large one
3. combine rule 1 and rule 2
4. offer them within 3 months of release
on quality i wouldn't be surprised if the the new jetta spikes up in that department ... after all there will be less to go wrong
. Never underestimate the people who just want a good sized car which simply drives i suspect this new jetta is going for a very similiar strategy like Renault went with the Dacia Logan around here: decent size, no bells and whistles, reliable/old technology and a low price
on the opposite side Lexus Europe is in a delirium or absolutly high: they expect their new CT200h to double lexus sales in europe: a 30.000+ euro hatchback which looks like a 18.000 mazda3 except made uglier, has a less comfortable and noisier ride then usual for a lexus, without achieving any 'sporty' fell whatsoever despite claiming otherwise, has a whopping 136 hp hybrid only which doesn't even come close to it's claimed MPG, a very american interieur, less interieur space than the A3 despite being larger on the outside etc.
i wan to have the things they are smoking... doubling sales
compared to the other premium compacts, A3, BMW 1, Alfa Guiletta and even the Volvo C30 they are going to fail miserable
Very cool, a very impressive car - outstanding economy without sacrificing anything (except that it will be pretty expensive). 99% chance it won't make it here.
There have been plenty of diesel hybrids prototyped over the last few years, but they are just not making it to market. Hopefully that is beginning to change.
We'll see how the Jetta sells. I'm hoping I'm wrong about it moving downmarket, but it's a lot cheaper than the old one so it remains to be seen how they kept the quality up.
Here in the US, the sedan (saloon) is king, even on smaller cars like the Focus and Corolla. That is slowly beginning to change, but Americans still like three-box cars over hatchbacks. Personally I prefer hatchbacks and wagons, though larger cars still look good as sedans.
The major difference between US and European car buyers is that Europeans are willing to buy an expensive small car, and Americans still associate size with price and quality. Small cars should be cheap and sparsely appointed, big cars are expensive and more feature-filled. This idea is changing, but only slowly.
By the way, I do like the Volvo C30 - it's a bit of an ageing design now but it still looks good and has a lot of power in T5 form. Kind of a yuppie-mobile though.
But even the Elise isn't immune, it's all relative of course, but it's gained roughly 170kg since the Series 1.
But along with aerodynamics... it's perhaps the most important factor in, as you say... handling, acceleration, braking, fuel economy... pretty much everything.
When you think how innovative a car like the Audi A2 was, I do find the lack of real progress over the last 12 years particularly sad. 10 years ago, the A2 was a sub 1000kg (sub 900kg in certain trim) proper 4 seater, its 3 cylinder TDI engine could easily achieve 70+mpg imp without even trying (according to Wiki 107.8 mpg & 140 mpg imp were also achieved).
The 1.2 TDI version emitted 81g/km CO2, featured Stop/Start, an Eco mode that disengaged the clutch when the accelerator was released to maximise free wheeling and was rated at 94mpg.
And this was 10 years ago...
In many ways, it's shameful today that we think that 60 or even 70mpg is somehow remarkable for a family car.
But not the brand image... that could perhaps be the biggest stumbling block of all, it certainly is in Europe anyway.
Personally... I don't think GM have a clue, and that's one of the reasons why they got themselves into one almighty hell of a mess, and only time will tell if they can get themselves out of it. I'm still of the opinion that GM's decision to attempt to introduce Chevrolet into the European market will ultimately prove futile.
Have to say my preference is for saloons... occasionally an estate (particularly A4 & A6 allroads, also 159 Sportwagons, that sort of thing), hatches (the bigger ones anyway) & estates can/tend to be a little boomy in my experience. Saloons also often have better body rigidity too.