GM Considers diesel engine for Chevy Cruze

[gkuhn]

To be honest it may be more that those in Europe aren't looking for pure horse power as we seem to be wanting here in the US...living very well with the power of my "base" 4 banger 2003 Subaru Baja...

We don't have big blocks here in Germany. Compared to a gasoline engine, driving a diesel engine is much more fun (due to higher torque). More than 70% of BMW 7-series and Audi A8 are sold with a diesel engine. Even Porsche is offering diesel as an option for the Panamera.
Diesel engine is a nice combination of driving fun and fuel saving.

 

[Gav2k]

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It's funny because neither GM nor Ford in Europe use their own Diesel engines, instead GM use Fiat engines and Ford use a Peugeot-Citroen engine.

Wonder if this will be the case in this? Chevy in Europe is a very cheap and nasty brand of car, much like Kia (they are re-branded Daewoo's).

I also wonder if Auto's v's Manual gears make a difference seeing as 90% of cars in Europe are manual v's the opposite in USA.

Adanvtages of diesel here are: Better mileage, longer range on a tank, lower tax due to lower CO2 emissions, higher resale value, longer life.

IMO European manufacturers have had much longer to perfect the technology (i.e. Common Rail Injected Diesel) so GM are up against it here.

I wonder how it will fare against the likes of the VW Golf's Blumotion that gets 74mpg! Much more than the crappy Japanese cars.

Take it you've never been down south where ford makes it's own engines?

 

[Graeme43]

Diesel is still noisy and stinky though! Every time I am in my car and a diesel goes infront I can smell it and it kinda hurts my nose as it "smells hot" if u know what I mean

Plus my 2T petrol has just as much or more torque than a diesel and has double the horsepower

 

[garybUK]

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Take it you've never been down south where ford makes it's own engines?

You mean Dagenham where they make the Petrol and some of the PSA Diesel engines? Take it I have... seeing as my dad and uncle worked for Ford for >20 years Funny how after knowing about fords like that neither of them would own a Ford privately (dad has a Audi A6 Estate + uncle a VW Passatt).

 

[jazzbo]

One small con for diesel is that in cold climates, at the very least you pay a slight premium for winterized diesel, and often you may need to add a de-gelling agent even with "winterized" fuel, or if a cold snap happens before the local dealers switch to winterized. I used to have a VW TDI Beetle and it just shut off one very cold morning in Maine, and had to be hauled to a garage so the fuel line could thaw out. The dealer claimed they made it very clear to me (and everyone) who bought a TDI that they needed to put in the conditioner; this was after commenting on why my engine stopped, "fuel probably gelled, we had 2 others already today." I suggested maybe they needed to emphasize the point a little better to new buyers.

Granted there is a deal of regular maintenance that car owners should expect, but in speaking with other TDI owners, several in my area had this 'surprise' in their first winter.

I don't know if the cleaner diesel is winterized better or not and/or what the premium for winterized fuel is these days during the colder months.

 

[takao]

A bit off-topic, but why haven't car manufacturers created hybrid cars that use a diesel engine + battery? There are lots of petrol-electric hybrids, but not diesel.

well i suspect we will see such cars first from a european car company: the japanese are on the front for gasoline powered ones but they simply lack any know how in regard to diesel

just look at their european diesel line up where i suspect 70-80% of all their diesel options are in reality just an engine they bought and slapped their name on the cover

VW is actually working/worked on a diesel range extender hbrid system for their recent small car concept projects, like 'up!" etc.:
it combined light weight materials throughout with an electric engine for normal driving and for highway speeds and extending range a small 2 cylinder 0.8 liter diesel engine optimized to run at constant speeds
quite clever actually .. the overall output combined still was around 70 hp or so which combined with a low weight of the car (800-900kg) still was juicy enough
looking at the very current and very genius Fiat Twin Air engines i have to say that very refined turbocharged small displacement/ few cylinder engines are actually the next step over the overly complicated hybrid systems

 

[MattA]

I have had a Golf TDI for 10 years. I bought it new. It currently has 218K miles on it. It's been a fantastic car. I commute 80 miles daily and get 45-47 mpg (depending on my foot).

The reason the newer Common-Rail TDIs don't get the mileage of the VE TDI's from the early 2000's is the emissions equipment. The Common Rail engine uses a particulate filter. Every once in awhile, fuel is injected during the exhaust stroke to burn the particulates. That fuel goes against your fuel economy.

I've had diesel fuel gel twice, neither on the TDI. My old Rabbit Diesel had gel problems in NV and CO. Both times it was well below 0. Most of the time the stations know to treat the fuel. Sometimes they don't get to it in time.

The two major reasons for higher diesel prices in the winter are anti-gel additives and demand for home-heating oil. Generally the price of diesel drops in the summertime to approximately the cost of RUG.

When it comes time to buy a new car, I will definitely get another TDI. No question. I won't even consider a hybrid. More power, less complexity, better driving characteristics, etc.

I hope more car companies consider diesel for the USA. We really need to increase fuel mileage across the board or get off oil completely. Diesels would be a huge help in that regard.

edit: The big reason there hasn't been a diesel hybrid is cost. A Golf TDI-hybrid would start at $30K. Would you pay $30K for a compact hatchback? Even if it did get 60mpg?

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The fuel gelling problems are a minor issue as far as I'm concerned. Here in Alaska people regularly drive diesels in -40F or colder weather. I don't see it as a major issue. More widespread adoption of diesel cars and trucks may be a slightly bumpy road here and there - but really the only stumbling block is the higher taxes on diesel here, not any technological issue.

on a random note just so you know switching to diesel you need to improve your MPG by around 30% for the switch to be carbon neutral. Remember Diesel as a lot more carbon in it per unit volume than unleaded.

Can we get a link for that?

Most of the dealerships here lump Proton, Hyundai and Kia... why? they are cheap cars for mums and old people that goto the supermarket, they are no where near upto the quality of the big german cars. Even most jap cars are pretty rubbish to be honest, even Honda dealers are shutting down left, right and centre, GM (Opel/Vauxhall's) new Astra's and the other bigger horrible thing, seem to have just styled them on the Japanese cars... yuk! World cars do not work, different markets want different things.

The Koreans have been improving a great deal since they built my brother's 1998 Hyundai Accent (which I someday hope to convert into a rally car when it's served it's on-road purpose). I would say that many of the latest models from Korea equal or exceed the Japanese in quality.

As for the Germans, I am a fan of many German cars and they have earned their reputation, but not all of their cars are great. I remember looking over the C-Class hatchback a few years ago and aside from the RWD and the badge it was inferior to a Golf IMO, and quite a bit more money. Same goes for the M-Class, or the BMW 318 and Z3. I think people often assume that the German cars are benchmarks, but not all of them are.

The Genesis sedan is a great car but will be ignored because of the Hyundai badge.

 

[takao]

The Koreans have been improving a great deal since they built my borther's 1998 Hyundai Accent (which I someday hope to convert into a rally car when it's served it's on-road purpose). I would say that many of the lates models from Korea equal or exceed the Japanese in quality.

true i think the mentioned Kia Cee'd is the prime example of a great korean car ... the problem though is that with it the price advantage also vanished
and i nretroperspective the name change from Dewoo to Chevrolet really helped GM a lot, sales really have been picking on ... relativly

regarding japanese cars they somehow again managed to hit 2 homeruns in the stupid name department
the Mitsubishi iMiEV which in german is spoken out (translated) "iStink"
and the suzuki Kizashi which in austrian dialekt german sounds pretty close to " kiss...'lower backside' "

As for the Germans, I am a fan of many German cars and they have earned their reputation, but not all of their cars are great. I remember looking over the C-Class hatchback a few years ago and aside from the RWD and the badge it was inferior to a Golf IMO, and quite a bit more money. Same goes for the M-Class, or the BMW 318 and Z3. I think people often assume that the German cars are benchmarks, but not all of them are.

true that .. regarding german benchmark cars i would mention the Golf TDI, the Mercedes E250 Blu Efficiency CDI, the BMW M3 .. in their markets they are simply the best there is for different reasons:
the Golf TDI is defining a whole vehicle class for most of europe: "Golf Klasse", every new vehicle roughly the same size and hatchback layout gets compared to it
the E250 BE CDI: showing that a fuel saving vehicle doesn't need to be hideous and still can be a big saloon car driving from Barcelona to Stuttgart on a single tank
the M3: the sporty 4 door saloon car benchmark

 

[MagicBoy]

The diesel is an Italian (VM Motori) design, and on paper the numbers are pretty good: 150hp and 240 ft-lbs from a 2L I4. It's a common rail direct injection motor, but not turbocharged.

It's got to be turbocharged for that amount of power and torque. There hasn't been a common rail non-turbo diesel made that I'm aware of. The last non-Turbo cars I recall being sold over here were the venerable VAG SDI which was rough as anything but lasted forever, and the PSA XUD. Both disappeared from new cars about 5 years ago.

Turbo Diesels are cleaner and more fuel efficient even with significantly more power.

I'll be sticking with my TDI PD engined Skoda. Thumping performance, 65mpg on a run and none of the electronics and emissions kit to go wrong. Plus I can make soot on demand to annoy BMW drivers

 

[Lord Blackadder]

regarding japanese cars they somehow again managed to hit 2 homeruns in the stupid name department
the Mitsubishi iMiEV which in german is spoken out (translated) "iStink"
and the suzuki Kizashi which in austrian dialekt german sounds pretty close to " kiss...'lower backside' "

That is brilliant!

true that .. regarding german benchmark cars i would mention the Golf TDI, the Mercedes E250 Blu Efficiency CDI, the BMW M3 .. in their markets they are simply the best there is for different reasons:
the Golf TDI is defining a whole vehicle class for most of europe: "Golf Klasse", every new vehicle roughly the same size and hatchback layout gets compared to it
the E250 BE CDI: showing that a fuel saving vehicle doesn't need to be hideous and still can be a big saloon car driving from Barcelona to Stuttgart on a single tank
the M3: the sporty 4 door saloon car benchmark

The Golf GTD sounds like the perfect car to me: practical, efficient, yet with good performance. Sadly, we Americans will probably never get to buy one.

The M3 remains a great car, especially the 4-door versions.

It's got to be turbocharged for that amount of power and torque. There hasn't been a common rail non-turbo diesel made that I'm aware of.

I thought the same, the power and torque numbers are definitely turbodiesel territory, but I have been unable to find any official description of the engine (it's called the RA 420) that mentiones a turbo. VM. Motori's own web page unhelpfully fails to even list the Cruze as an application or even the engine itself! Their automotive engine brochure does list the RA 420 but doesn't label any of the engines as turbodiesels either.

EDIT: Automobile Magazine calls it a turbodiesel in their news article about the diesel Cruze rumor, as does this more descriptive Argentinian press release (in Spanish) so I have to assume it's just a case of VM Motori not being fully descriptive on their webpage. I hadn't heard of a common rail non-turbo diesel engine either, so I thought it a bit weird but without confirmation I had to assume non-turbo till proven otherwise.

 

[MagicBoy]

Mmmm, Golf TDI. Cracking cars. I went for the bargain option - Golf GT TDI mechanicals in the slightly smaller Skoda Fabia. Some american friends who run older Merc diesels we had over were very surprised by the refinement and power of it.

Wikipedia (yeah I know!) have some more information on the RA420 -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Cruze#Powertrains. Appears to be quite popular unit with the Far Eastern manufacturers. A little surprised Chevy/Daewoo/GM went to VM when they've got their own joint manufacturing operation with FIAT as used in the Opel/Vauxhall ranges.

 

[LarryC]

They are exempt from CAFE( since HD's are supposed to be work trucks and all), but they are required to meet the new diesel emissions laws.

Which I believe are a lot more stringent than in Europe. I don't know if this is true, but I have read that the diesel offerings in Europe would have been approved here just a couple years ago. Those small Ford's in Europe are getting something like 65 MPG.

 

[iGav]

looking at the very current and very genius Fiat Twin Air engines i have to say that very refined turbocharged small displacement/ few cylinder engines are actually the next step over the overly complicated hybrid systems

The Twin Air is conceptually brilliant... but its real world numbers haven't anywhere near matched up to Fiat's official figures (68.9mpg official - 35.7mpg real world, neither of which are particularly brilliant to begin with) and there lies one of the problems with small capacity engines, in anything other than ideal test conditions (i.e. rolling road), it is extraordinarily difficult to even approach the officials figures in everyday conditions, because put simply, they have to be razzed.

Like what you've said though, there's a compelling argument to be made that a diesel-electric hybrid (like VW's XL1 Concept), with energy recovery would probably be the best arrangement (particularly for an urban car), in this instance the diesel engine is isolated from the actually drivetrain (reducing NVH etc) and the electric motors counter the age old argument of petrol>diesel refinement.

I do think that smaller capacity, fewer cylinder engines are the way to go, but only if the absolutely most important factor is addressed first, and that is one of weight, until then...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Like what you've said though, there's a compelling argument to be made that a diesel-electric hybrid (like VW's XL1 Concept), with energy recovery would probably be the best arrangement (particularly for an urban car), in this instance the diesel engine is isolated from the actually drivetrain (reducing NVH etc) and the electric motors counter the age old argument of petrol>diesel refinement.

I do think that smaller capacity, fewer cylinder engines are the way to go, but only if the absolutely most important factor is addressed first, and that is one of weight, until then...

Agree on all points. A diesel serial hybrid could potentially blow any current production car out of the water in terms of fuel efficiency - triple digit mileage is possible under favorable conditions, and even more "real-world" driving mileage will be a substantial improvement over current cars.

When I look around my city and see everyone tooling around in 6.0L V8 pickups, I feel like we have a lot of convincing to do though.

Keeping weight down is all-important. Which is why I remain in love with the Lotus Elise. It proves that less weight fixes everything - better handling, acceleration, braking, fuel economy...of course in a hybrid, the battery pack is always the vexed question. Even the best batteries are still expensive and relatively heavy.

 

[SuperCachetes]

I wish there were more affordable Diesels in the States. A Cruze might be a bit "too" affordable, but neither can I step up to a Mercedes. The BMW 330d is sweet, though. I have to rule out VWs based on a personal bias. What to do...

I'm really keen to see this system in action. Waste oil as fuel = brilliant.

 

[takao]

i just checked the austrian chevrolet cruze site and interestingly the 2.0 diesel engine there doesn't match the power output of the engine mentioned here as it's a 163 hp, 360 nm engine opposed to the 150hp 320nm

the power output would fit the r 425 on the VM motori site but then the displacement doesn't match (2 liters vs. 2.5)

edit: nevermind ... the 163hp diesel is the new 2011 replacement engine for the 150 hp engine in the euro market, so i suspect the old production line of the 150hp version can no produce the engine for the US market

 

[InsanelyApple]

Why do Americans harbor hate for diesel? I'm not very familiar with the differences between the fuels, other than gasoline is more refined.

Well, diesel exhaust smells worse than gasoline exhaust. (Personal Experience)

 

[gnasher729]

Hold it right there! The Kia models sold in Europe actually nowadays borrow from the current Hyundai Motor Company parts bin, and as such are way more civilized cars. Anyone who's driven the Kia Cee'd hatchback in Europe know it's a way better car than people think.

Mostly because they are actually made in Europe. And Kia pinched the guy who designed the Audi TT to design the Kia Ceed. But I really wouldn't know who is borrowing from whom.

 

[mfram]

So when will automakers sell a compact pickup with a 2 liter diesel in the US? I want a diesel pick up. But I don't want a behemoth that requires a ladder to enter and hogs 2/3 of a 2 car garage.

I prefer diesel in a work truck for three reasons: torque, torque and torque.

Don't know about trucks, but Volkswagon has been selling 2.0L 4-cyl diesel engines for a while. You can get a Jetta Wagon TDI.... but that's not quite the same as a truck.

I personally own a Jetta TDI sedan. It's a nice engine.

 

[digitaldean]

I currently have a 4.7L V8 Dodge Dakota. I'd buy a diesel version of it in a heartbeat. I could still get the power/hauling ability needed but have the mileage to justify having the pickup.

But now with the possibility of having $5/gal gas looming, the 18 HWY MPG may force my hand.

Had the truck for over 5 years, but it may get too cost prohibitive to keep.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I currently have a 4.7L V8 Dodge Dakota. I'd buy a diesel version of it in a heartbeat. I could still get the power/hauling ability needed but have the mileage to justify having the pickup.

But now with the possibility of having $5/gal gas looming, the 18 HWY MPG may force my hand.

Had the truck for over 5 years, but it may get too cost prohibitive to keep.

I take it you need to haul, tow stuff often enough that not having the truck would be painful.

My dad refuses to get rid of there 1995 Ram that gets like 15 MPG HWY on a good day because it is nice to have a truck for when stuff needs to be hauled or we need the bed.
Mind you the truck has been pretty much reduced to just that type of duty or if one of our other cars are out of action for one reason or another it is a spare vehicle.

SUV and trucks have their places. Problem I see is to many people only want trucks when really in a family with 2 vehicles you really only need a max of 1 SUV/truck between them and a car for the rest. That is how my parents did it for a while. SUV for my mom/family car and a gas and my dad drove a car.

Dad car mainly went 2 and from work and my mom SUV was for when the family went somewhere together and my mom drove it to and from work but my mom drove like 6 miles each way compared to my dads near 30 miles each way.

 

[takao]

I currently have a 4.7L V8 Dodge Dakota. I'd buy a diesel version of it in a heartbeat. I could still get the power/hauling ability needed but have the mileage to justify having the pickup.

But now with the possibility of having $5/gal gas looming, the 18 HWY MPG may force my hand.

i just looked up the torque on the new 4.7 v8: 446nm ... compared to this thread Chevrolet Cruze 2011 new diesel with 360nm from a 2.0 I4 ... no wonder you would want a diesel for pulling (the 3.7 v6 entry engine only produced 319 nm of torque ... in a truck heavier than the moon)

that the US car makers still sells trucks, pickups etc. without diesel options is simply a complete lack of any common sense. diesel engines are practically made to be perfect for pulling and towing in commercial vehicles
for it's south american Amarok pick up VW simply took the 2.0 I4 TDI from the golf/jetta and set up the engine slightly different in regards to the power/torque band and ends up with an engine which was very likely cheaper to develop, cheaper to build had less weight and still achieves 400nm of torque

 

[iJohnHenry]

.... that the US car makers still sells trucks, pickups etc. without diesel options is simply a complete lack of any common sense.

Profit and common sense cannot co-exist, apparently.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I wish there were more affordable Diesels in the States. A Cruze might be a bit "too" affordable, but neither can I step up to a Mercedes. The BMW 330d is sweet, though. I have to rule out VWs based on a personal bias. What to do...

The VW diesels are very well-built cars. A friend bought an '09 Jetta TDI and he is satisfied with it. I checked out the BMW 335d at the Detroit Auto show a year ago or so, and while I like the car BMW only offers it as a sedan and the base price is a laughably expensive $44k. If you won't buy a VW and want a newish diesel, your only other vaguely affordable option is a used W210/W211 (1996-2009) Mercedes Benz E-Class diesel. Nice cars, but you'll have to find one and it will be used (and not particularly cheap).

I currently have a 4.7L V8 Dodge Dakota. I'd buy a diesel version of it in a heartbeat. I could still get the power/hauling ability needed but have the mileage to justify having the pickup.

But now with the possibility of having $5/gal gas looming, the 18 HWY MPG may force my hand.

Had the truck for over 5 years, but it may get too cost prohibitive to keep.

that the US car makers still sells trucks, pickups etc. without diesel options is simply a complete lack of any common sense. diesel engines are practically made to be perfect for pulling and towing in commercial vehicles

Chrysler is particularly stupid in my opinion, because they should have put the Mercedes diesel engines from the Sprinter van, which they were already selling here, into the Ram. The Sprinter came with four, five and six cylinder diesels that would fit into a variety of other vehicles, and would be particularly useful in trucks and SUVs. While weaker than the biggest V8s, they still offer a lot of torque for their size and much better fuel economy. Why, Chrysler? Why?

Mercedes sells the Sprinter here now, so the opportunity was lost for Chrysler.