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Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
In many ways, it's shameful today that we think that 60 or even 70mpg is somehow remarkable for a family car. :(

It certainly could be significantly higher. Public taste, laziness on the part of manufacturers and other things have all conspired to keep the bar set low on fuel economy.

In the US, there's one key reason why small cars don't sell (above and beyond the reasons I already listed), and that is that popular wisdom holds that you will die in a small car when someone in a large SUV or truck hits you. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy as people buy big cars because they don't feel safe in small ones, with the result that they become part of the "problem". Ultimately it's down to selfishness. Apparently people would rather kill someone else in an accident than risk being killed themselves.

It's idiotic, but this "wisdom" will only be unlearned slowly. Smaller cars are much safer now then they once were - safer than trucks and SUVs.

By way of a postscript, it's worth pointing out that today's safety and environmental regulations make it more difficult to make a car frugal, small and light than it was when Alec Issigonis designed the Mini. Also, aluminum construction (in smaller production cars such as the A2) remains nearly as rare and expensive as it was in the 50s.

But not the brand image... that could perhaps be the biggest stumbling block of all, it certainly is in Europe anyway.

True, and that's a shame, because brand image often matters than a car's actual merits. If the new Jetta is a turd, people will still buy it because the VW badge has cachet here that GM does not, at least in the realm of small cars.

I'm not going to stand up too much for GM, I've never held a high opinion of most of their products, but I have reasonably read good reviews of the Cruze and I hope they bring the diesel here.

Have to say my preference is for saloons... occasionally an estate (particularly A4 & A6 allroads, also 159 Sportwagons, that sort of thing), hatches (the bigger ones anyway) & estates can/tend to be a little boomy in my experience. Saloons also often have better body rigidity too.

The sedan body is the default in the US. Hatches and wagons are much rarer and therefore more interesting. In Europe it's really the other way around. When you're talking about mid-size or larger cars, sedans do generally have better proportions in my opinion (with a few exceptions - I like 5-Series wagon, and the 1990s Subaru Legacy wagon). Hatches look good on small cars though. The Focus, for example, looked stupid as a sedan but great as a hatch.

I do agree with you about the noise though - my Forester's rear suspension is sometimes very audible in the cabin, especially with the seats down. A few years before I bought my Forester, I used to mock it as the ugliest thing on the road, but I've gotten used to it and while it's never going to be attractive it does have a certain pleasing purposefulness in its proportions. Even though a lesbian couple I know call it my lesbian wagon. :rolleyes::D
 
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LarryC

macrumors 6502
Jul 19, 2002
419
33
North America
In the US, there's one key reason why small cars don't sell (above and beyond the reasons I already listed), and that is that popular wisdom holds that you will die in a small car when someone in a large SUV or truck hits you. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy as people buy big cars because they don't feel safe in small ones, with the result that they become part of the "problem". Ultimately it's down to selfishness. Apparently people would rather kill someone else in an accident than risk being killed themselves.

It's idiotic, but this "wisdom" will only be unlearned slowly. Smaller cars are much safer now then they once were - safer than trucks and SUVs.

Do you have any supporting evidence to back up this claim of yours that small cars are safer than trucks and SUV's? It might be selfish in your eyes that I bought an SUV for my wife to drive around in, I call it being being protective and reasonable! I should also add that I drive a 2009 Dodge RAM and I love it!
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
If you buy a truck or SUV because you want to tow or haul, drive offroad or use it for work, fine. If you bought it because you're being "protective", then, yes, that is a selfish motivation.

Larger SUV's and trucks often do suffer fewer driver fatalities, so in some ways they are safer (in the US), but that is because they force smaller vehicles to absorb most of the impact during a crash. Also, the rollover risk remains high, so that the "protection" you are buying is pretty conditional and may come at the expense of other people's lives.

In addition, I should point out that minivans are safer than SUVs, so if you want your family safe, buy a minivan. Finally, it's a proven fact that pickups are less safe than cars, period.

If you want to debate it further I suggest we start another thread though, so we can keep this one on-topic.
 
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LarryC

macrumors 6502
Jul 19, 2002
419
33
North America
If you buy a truck or SUV because you want to tow or haul, drive offroad or use it for work, fine. If you bought it because you're being "protective", then, yes, that is a selfish motivation.

Larger SUV's and trucks often do suffer fewer driver fatalities, so in some ways they are safer (in the US), but that is because they force smaller vehicles to absorb most of the impact during a crash. Also, the rollover risk remains high, so that the "protection" you are buying is pretty conditional and may come at the expense of other people's lives.

If you want to debate it further I suggest we start another thread though, so we can keep this one on-topic.

I have no desire to debate anything. I was just very surprised to see it written that small cars are safer than Trucks and SUV's. I just wanted to know where I could go and read that information myself. You are the one who started the name calling! What a European, effete-snob calls selfish, this American calls a primal urge to survive. What I am really curious about is why you have such a control issue that you feel the need to tell anyone else what they are allowed to drive. One thing I like about being an American is that I don't have to prove a "need" to buy and drive a Full-Size Truck. I can and do drive anything I want to buy and drive. You seem to be socialist that wants to control every aspect of other peoples lives. If you want to force me to drive what you want then you'd better bring some help, cause this American is not going to give up my personal freedoms!

As far as you judging others as being selfish. That is a judgement. My belief regarding judgement is that anyone has the right to agree or disagree with anyone. But no one has the right to judge another person. Only the creator has that right.
 
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takao

macrumors 68040
Dec 25, 2003
3,827
605
Dornbirn (Austria)
But not the brand image... that could perhaps be the biggest stumbling block of all, it certainly is in Europe anyway.

Personally... I don't think GM have a clue, and that's one of the reasons why they got themselves into one almighty hell of a mess, and only time will tell if they can get themselves out of it. I'm still of the opinion that GM's decision to attempt to introduce Chevrolet into the European market will ultimately prove futile.

the Daewoo -> Chevrolet re-branding in europe has been more or less the best business move GM has made perhaps in the last decade
with every "had been Daewoo" model getting replaced over the years sales picked up ... even more so in eastern europe
sure their styling isn't bold o nthe interieur and on the front of the cars very US taste like but i suspect the korean Chevrolet brand is the safest in their whole portfolio

what is really their big trainwreck is still Opel. Their "bail us out ... no wait .. yeah bail us out .. not on your conditions .. we are ready to sign the deal any minute .. except we are not" theather they played with the german government tarnished their brand for years to coem especially in the heads of workers and lower middle class
their bread-n-butter models Astra and Corsa has just been upgraded but as soon as "cash for clunkers" programs ended their sales tanked hard
especially as opel lacks any brand positioning at all: are they a cheap brand or a premium brand, a sporty one or a comforty one ? Opel as all over the place and tries to sell cars in every space possible

which is in a contrast to the japanese/korean brands which in europe over the last few years streamlined a lot: nearly all brands stopped offering premium sedans or upper market offerings and rather concentrated on SUVs/ crossovers and small offroaders and small minivans, compacts or small hatchbacks
just try looking for an affordable coupe-sedan styled car... or any other 'sporty' looking car below 25.000 euro which isn't a hatchback
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
the Daewoo -> Chevrolet re-branding in europe has been more or less the best business move GM has made perhaps in the last decade
with every "had been Daewoo" model getting replaced over the years sales picked up ... even more so in eastern europe
sure their styling isn't bold o nthe interieur and on the front of the cars very US taste like but i suspect the korean Chevrolet brand is the safest in their whole portfolio

GM is doing reasonably well in Asia, and they have placed much of their small-car design duties into the capable hands of the Koreans - a wise move in my opinion. Many Americans speak proudly about "buying American" when they own a Chevy, but most cars these days are international efforts. The diesel Cruze is a Korean design with a little Opel input and an Italian engine, assembled in the US (in the case of US-market Cruzes).
 

quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,910
2,338
what is really their big trainwreck is still Opel. Their "bail us out ... no wait .. yeah bail us out .. not on your conditions .. we are ready to sign the deal any minute .. except we are not" theather they played with the german government tarnished their brand for years to coem especially in the heads of workers and lower middle class

I think blame can be put on both sides. The German government was being unreasonable. It was that GM needed to find an investment partner. GM was fine with that. But, then the Germans changed it to they had to sell majority stake in Opel. GM still went along and found a company to do it with. But, then the Germans didn't like that the company would be open to selling Opel back to GM. That was BS and an EU official agreed that it was BS. What also didn't help GM's case was their Chapter 11 reorganization which setup a new board of directors. New GM's CEO Fritz Henderson( who was a carry over from Old GM) was willing to go through with the sale no matter what. The board disagreed which then caused the board to fire Henderson and put Ed Whitacre as CEO which he stopped the sale of Opel knowing Opel was important to GM's success in Europe. So obviously, the Opel mess wasn't exactly good PR.

GM is doing reasonably well in Asia, and they have placed much of their small-car design duties into the capable hands of the Koreans - a wise move in my opinion. Many Americans speak proudly about "buying American" when they own a Chevy, but most cars these days are international efforts. The diesel Cruze is a Korean design with a little Opel input and an Italian engine, assembled in the US (in the case of US-market Cruzes).

Almost everything is a global effort these days. The only product not going to see the effects of global development most likely are full size pickups. Everything else is moving to a global effort. The Buick Regal is the Opel Insignia( I love the US media. Before the Regal came out in the US, they went over to Europe and drove it and they loved it. Then they drive it on US shores, and all of a sudden they start panning it? :confused: ). As you mentioned the Cruze is Korean developed with input from Opel and GMNA. GM's latest RWD platforms( excluding the Y-Body) can be traced back to their Holden division( Sigma, Alpha, and Zeta).
 

Big-TDI-Guy

macrumors 68030
Jan 11, 2007
2,606
13
I will be devastated on the day that my 2002 Golf TDI dies. 50mpg - I drive the hell out of it - I'm a HUGE guy and it's comfy. Oh yeah, and I can fit a full sized washing machine inside the hatch. (or a 50" plasma TV, for that matter)

My favorite memory to date with this car, pulling into a gas station (with a new washing machine in the back, of course) and watching the owner of a Jeep Grand Cherokee have a fit about how he can't fit one inside his...

And then I told him my average MPG. :D
 

DaveN

macrumors 6502a
May 1, 2010
906
757
Is it worth it?

From the first article "A diesel Cruze would be about 12 percent more fuel efficient than the ECO, but diesel is about 9 percent more expensive than gasoline, eliminating the majority of the benefit." Also from the article, the ECO costs $19,000. In England, GM charges an extra $2700 for the diesel version. So it looks like you have to drive a lot of miles before you break even.

Am I anti diesel? Hardly, I bought a diesel Dodge Ram back in 1999 and still have it. At the time the initial cost was several thousand more than a gas model. Diesel fuel at that time was significantly less expensive than gasoline and the fuel economy was a lot better. I still have that truck though for my daily commute, I drive my Chevy Lumina as it gets 20 mpg in town (much better than my truck). If fuel prices keep going up, a may commute by bicycle this summer... I may do that anyway for health reasons though not if it gets too hot.
 

Big-TDI-Guy

macrumors 68030
Jan 11, 2007
2,606
13
Dear god I hope that Golf GTD shows up stateside.

I believe I will own one, should it happen.

That's purty. :)
 

SactoGuy18

macrumors 601
Sep 11, 2006
4,348
1,509
Sacramento, CA USA
Dear god I hope that Golf GTD shows up stateside.

I believe I will own one, should it happen.

That's purty. :)

Here's the bad news: it'll never happen.

Why? Because the cetane rating for US-sold clean diesel fuel is much lower than the cetane rating for European-sold clean diesel fuel. As such, for a US-model car it may be difficult to achieve the 170 ps engine rating of the Golf GTD. :(
 

takao

macrumors 68040
Dec 25, 2003
3,827
605
Dornbirn (Austria)
yeah diesels are more fitting to people who drive a lot of miles, especially when it's highway driving where no other current drive train beats diesel engines for driving constant speeds in the 100-130 km/h territory

that's why the rule of thumb is for comuters: if you drive 40 miles each day on the highway to your work with few red lights on the way: get a diesel
if it's constant stop-and-go and red lights traffic: get a hybrid or electric car
if it's 2 miles or less: get a bike ;)

regarding cars as very international affairs: the history is plastered with failed attempts at "world cars" .. even more so when a car makers call one of their cars a 'world car' in their PR before the release
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
Here's the bad news: it'll never happen.

Why? Because the cetane rating for US-sold clean diesel fuel is much lower than the cetane rating for European-sold clean diesel fuel. As such, for a US-model car it may be difficult to achieve the 170 ps engine rating of the Golf GTD. :(

There is some overlap, but it's true that cetane ratings are lower in the US - I think they are mostly 40-50 or so, whereas the cetane rating in most European diesel is more likely to be between 50-60.

It's possible to raise the cetane rating with additives, but the fact of the matter is that European diesel allows higher performance in small diesel engines. Also, I have read somewhere that biodiesels tend to have higher cetane ratings.
 
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Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
regarding cars as very international affairs: the history is plastered with failed attempts at "world cars" .. even more so when a car makers call one of their cars a 'world car' in their PR before the release

That's true, though there have been a few successes, like the Ford Focus.

For the record, I walk to work unless the temperatures is around 10F or below. I intentionally located myself near my job, and made some sacrifices in order to do so.
 

quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,910
2,338
That's true, though there have been a few successes, like the Ford Focus.

We won't see the success of the global Ford Focus until the 2012 Focus. Before the new model, the American and Euro Focus were completely different. Only thing they shared was the name.
 

QuantumLo0p

macrumors 6502a
Apr 28, 2006
992
30
U.S.A.
Why do Americans harbor hate for diesel? I'm not very familiar with the differences between the fuels, other than gasoline is more refined.

There are a lot of old perceptions about diesel. I love diesel; they are inherently more efficient than gasoline engines.

I could say something like- "there are a lot of people in the US stuck on old tech, out dated, dirty, inefficient, gas powered cars that don't last as long as diesels nor have as good as ROI as diesels" but I wouldn't want to upset anyone who owns a technically inferior vehicle so I will keep my thoughts to myself.
:D
 

LarryC

macrumors 6502
Jul 19, 2002
419
33
North America
There are a lot of old perceptions about diesel. I love diesel; they are inherently more efficient than gasoline engines.

I could say something like- "there are a lot of people in the US stuck on old tech, out dated, dirty, inefficient, gas powered cars that don't last as long as diesels nor have as good as ROI as diesels" but I wouldn't want to upset anyone who owns a technically inferior vehicle so I will keep my thoughts to myself.
:D

As with most things :D I do have an opinion on that. I am very interested in diesel, but I am in the minority as far as that is concerned. When I mention the benefits of diesel to my friends, most of them say something like "Really, you're kidding, if they are superior in areas such as mileage then why doesn't the car companies make and sell them?" I believe the answer is because of the ridiculous emissions standards placed on the manufacturers by agencies such as the EPA. I believe that our government knows the benefits of diesel technology, but that too many powerful people are bought and paid for by giant corporations. You can call me a tin-hat wearing conspiracy theorist is you want to, but I really do think that is why many good things are being suppressed here.
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
We won't see the success of the global Ford Focus until the 2012 Focus. Before the new model, the American and Euro Focus were completely different. Only thing they shared was the name.

But prior to that the Mk1 was the same in both the U.S. & Europe.
 

tlinford

macrumors regular
May 4, 2009
185
0
Edinburgh
Jeep Liberty CRD...

Diesel engines are excellent although it in worth considering one drawback and that is the freezing point of diesel fuel....

I drive a Jeep Liberty 2.8 CRD (common rail diesel) which is not available in the States so I understand. The fuel economy is great, mine in an auto and I get all round 30 mpg's in euro terms this isn't too great as most small cars do around 38-40 mpg if petrol 50+ mpg's in diesel, but these are cars that weigh nothing!

I love the Jeep, especially the diesel because it gives the truck gravitas! but diesel fuel freezes at around -15 degs C... In the UK is hardly every gets this cold (although I did have one day this winter when the Jeep wouldn't start because it was -18!)... In the UK we don't have engine block heaters in the UK, so I am not sure if it would be possible to cold proof?

just be aware!

Someone said about diesel engines coming from single sources... this is because these engines are complicated to design and build and it's cheaper for car makers to go to the experts..... the one I have in the Jeep is a VM Motori and Italian engine based on one they put in London Black cabs! bullet proof engine!
 

Big-TDI-Guy

macrumors 68030
Jan 11, 2007
2,606
13
Of recent memory - I've had no issue starting all the way down to -26C. Haven't gone colder, yet. Driving this diesel for 7 years now.

Most places that DO get very cold - treat their diesel fuel to prevent wax crystals accumulating. Only issues with this are low-volume stations that may have summer hold-over (haven't yet received winter-grade fuel). Or, you could be living in southern Cali - and decide for a road trop to Canada in December (might have some issues there, too) But for these situations you can put in your own additive.

All this said, I've never needed any additive myself, car is never garaged, and has never failed to start as of yet.
 

quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,910
2,338
But prior to that the Mk1 was the same in both the U.S. & Europe.

Was only a young kid when that Focus was around.......

Anyway, when the current US Focus debuted back in 1999 I believe it was, it wasn't a bad car. In typical bad Ford fashion, it was left to rot on the vine. It got a heavy redesign/MCE for the 2008/9 MY I believe it was, but it was too late. The 2012 Focus is so much better. Although I prefer the Chevy Cruze.

So far this generation of world cars are going fairly well. The Buick Regal is selling in China and in the US fairly well( with the Regal being the Opel Insignia). The Cruze isn't doing too badly either. I don't know the exact number of Cruze sales in Europe, but I heard it was decent. They just sold 18,000 units in February in the US. Holden survives as it is today due to its export business. World cars can be done. They just have to be implemented correctly.
 

QuantumLo0p

macrumors 6502a
Apr 28, 2006
992
30
U.S.A.
As with most things :D I do have an opinion on that. I am very interested in diesel, but I am in the minority as far as that is concerned. When I mention the benefits of diesel to my friends, most of them say something like "Really, you're kidding, if they are superior in areas such as mileage then why doesn't the car companies make and sell them?" I believe the answer is because of the ridiculous emissions standards placed on the manufacturers by agencies such as the EPA. I believe that our government knows the benefits of diesel technology, but that too many powerful people are bought and paid for by giant corporations. You can call me a tin-hat wearing conspiracy theorist is you want to, but I really do think that is why many good things are being suppressed here.

I agree. Case in point; I believe one of the Aptera prototypes was rear drive and used batteries in conjunction with a diesel generator. At full charge the car would run off batteries and as they depleted the generator would contribute more and more electricity. Aptera's fuel efficiency figures were impressive, leaving EVER?THING currently offered in the dust. Sorry I can't quote data but if you look at archived site pages you can probably still find it; I did while back.

As fate would have it the diesel generator Aptera prototype has yet to make it into production and now they seem to offer only a total-loss battery car. I don't recall the range being very impressive which relegates it as an urban novelty and not in contention for serious real-world commuting.
:(
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
Original poster
May 7, 2004
15,669
5,499
Sod off
All this said, I've never needed any additive myself, car is never garaged, and has never failed to start as of yet.

A neighbor of mine drives a ratty looking 4th generation Jetta TDI. She has it on an engine block heater, not sure what she does to prevent gelling but it works just fine, and we've had sustained temperatures well below -10F.

So while it may require steps to be taken to prevent fuel gelling, diesels will run just fine at very low temperatures.

Was only a young kid when that Focus was around.......

Anyway, when the current US Focus debuted back in 1999 I believe it was, it wasn't a bad car. In typical bad Ford fashion, it was left to rot on the vine. It got a heavy redesign/MCE for the 2008/9 MY I believe it was, but it was too late. The 2012 Focus is so much better. Although I prefer the Chevy Cruze.

My brother has a Mk1 3-door hatch Focus with the 2.0L Zetec four, and while I'm not a huge fan of the driving position I think is a great little car and miles ahead of what GM was making at the time. Unfortunately, Ford kept the Mk1 for sale in the US (with only facelifts) for way too long, and towards the end of its run it was pretty dated. The new one is a very nice car, and the arrival of the Fiesta really strengthens Ford's small-car lineup.

I imagine that Ford will be keeping an eye on GM's diesel Cruze (if it happens) to gauge popularity. A diesel Focus or Fiesta would be a good addition to the lineup. I may be wrong, but I think that Ford uses their own diesel engine in the European Focus.
 
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