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I still haven't forgiven them for that. I used to love Volvos and always wanted one. Now I just own a Mazda and love it. I would own an Infinity if I could afford it. But I can't complain. A friend of mine has an Acura with almost 300k miles and it still runs great.

Ford since 1999, Ford since 1979, Nissan since...forever, Honda also since forever.

Yup. Why do you think the new mustang has such good handling.

Actually, better question is "Why do you think the new Mustang has such crappy handling?". My dad has 2 1965 Mustangs and test drove a 2008 for a weekend (I drove it too) and they all handle roughly the same. The old ones have more body roll, but in terms of how the car drives they are nearly the same.
 
as stupid as it was for GM to sale their stakes in Suzuki and Subaru (although I think GM still owns like 3% of Suzuki). The Japanese brands seem to be where its at right now.

I don't think selling their stake in Subaru was all that dumb. Subaru doesn't exactly rake in the cash, plus the only thing to really come out of the deal was the 9-2X (a.k.a. the Saabaru :D). My Impreza was built 7 years after GM bought 20% of FHI, and yet my window switches (and rear differential housing I think*) are Nissan parts. :D




*: I'm not sure on this, but I know the LSD's that Subaru uses in the WRX and STI are Nissan units.
 
I think the problem with all the US car makers is #1 their name and #2 their styling.

Ford:
- Haven't seen a significant update to their explorer or expedition in years. The explorer used to be the #1 selling SUV and the expedition is pretty popular.
- The Taurus is just ugly, even though its supposed to ride very nicely
- The ford flex looks like a station wagon on viagra
- Focus is ugly
- Lincoln & Mercury are pretty much dead aside from the Town Car (for limo service)

And unless the buyer is a die hard ford fan, they'd probably go for the Honda or Toyota.

GM:
I'm just going to say most of their cars are unattractive. And I think the biggest issue is their platform sharing. If they use the same engines, transmissions, and frames- fine. But when they make 12 cars that look exactly the same with 12 different names, its ridiculous. Want to find a way of saving money, cut back the crap. Lets take the trail blazer- how many forms did that take? Trail Blazer, Envoy, Rainier, 9-7x, Bravada, and Ascender. Unnecessary.

I think they should make all trucks/SUVs GMC, have all the cars be chevy, ditch pontiac, maybe saturn, keep cadillac, and then make a new brand to actually compete in the luxury market. Honestly not many people under the age of 65 see themselves in a Cadillac unless its an Esclade.

The Americans need to step up their game and start producing something that is better looking, more fuel efficient, better built, and cheaper than the Japanese and Korean competitors.
 
Ford owns a good amount of Mazda, but not a controlling stake. Just enough to benefit from Mazda's surge in the last few years.

Ford does own a controlling stake in Mazda. Even though it doesn't have a 51% stake in it due to Japanese regulation not letting Ford to have it. The gov't does recognize it has the controlling share. Or something like that.
 
Apologies if someone's already said this:

The previous threads all seem to have the misconception that Ford and GM's main industry is car manufacturing. In recent years their main business has been finance. Ford (and I assume GM) have made more money from finance deals that car sales. Therefore the problems with the finance industry in recent weeks has hit them in the same way as banks and insurance companies. The fact that their cars are often $h!t in a comparatively minor problem.
 
While I agree GM and Ford have been mismanaged on a massive scale and they were idiots relying on SUV's and trucks and neglecting their cars, etc. Should the gov't be sitting there and do nothing to help them( give loans, etc with massive stipulations, etc like removal of GM's idiotic board members)? While people may believe in the free market and let the weak die, the free market is going to kill the country due to the thousands of people that will be out of work if GM and Ford fail.

Why is it that foreign car manufacturers with plants inside the US don't have these problems? How many times do we have to resuscitate a domestic car industry that fails to keep itself solvent time and time again? The lost jobs are a tragedy, but the problem is MUCH bigger than tens of thousands of jobs. It's a problem of a fundamentally uncompetitive industry. Saving the jobs alone is just window dressing. We need to remake the industry in a more competitive mold so that those jobs are safe without subsidies and bailouts.

The Big Three and the American public are living in a fantasy world. We have to stop buying large, shoddily made vehicles in the numbers we do and start looking seriously at smaller, more economical and sustainable vehicles. We also need to treat our vehicles as less disposable than we currently do, which demands a better build quality for a longer useful life. The rest of the world learned this harsh lesson in the aftermath of WWII 60 years ago, but we have been able to shield ourselves due to our economic and political power. Now, however, the chickens are coming home to roost.

I'm not saying we can't have any trucks or SUVs anymore, but we all need to re-evaluate just how much we are willing to sacrifice in order to have that type of vehicle. It's no longer the case that we can have our cake and eat it too. The Big Three need to understand that their existence is not a given.
 
Why is it that foreign car manufacturers with plants inside the US don't have these problems? How many times do we have to resuscitate a domestic car industry that fails to keep itself solvent time and time again? The lost jobs are a tragedy, but the problem is MUCH bigger than tens of thousands of jobs. It's a problem of a fundamentally uncompetitive industry. Saving the jobs alone is just window dressing. We need to remake the industry in a more competitive mold so that those jobs are safe without subsidies and bailouts.

Lord...

I couldn't agree more. This is one reason why I don't think the government should get involved in this one. Lost jobs suck, but don't blame the economy on this one.....
 
Why is it that foreign car manufacturers with plants inside the US don't have these problems? How many times do we have to resuscitate a domestic car industry that fails to keep itself solvent time and time again? The lost jobs are a tragedy, but the problem is MUCH bigger than tens of thousands of jobs. It's a problem of a fundamentally uncompetitive industry. Saving the jobs alone is just window dressing. We need to remake the industry in a more competitive mold so that those jobs are safe without subsidies and bailouts.


Exactly why I've been calling for the bailout with the exception that these companies have to adhere to new guidelines put in place, and actually enforced, by the government.

45 Mpg average by 2015
Ramp down production of SUV/Trucks to better match the actual demand
Ramp UP hybrid production
Heavy R&D into alternative fuel cars and technology to get the best fuel mileage in exsisting cars.


Of course none of these would ever happen seeing as too many people would cry afoul.
 
Living here in MI and working in the Auto industry as well, this has been very hard on the state. So many people depend on the auto industry for jobs. You have the big 3 themselves, then all the suppliers (Where I work - Bosch).

As suppliers we have already seen tough times, but it is only going to get worse before it gets any better. Lets hope the government acts quickly!
 
What happens if the US gov't "loans" millions if not billions of dollars to these companies and they fail anyway? Why should the US taxpayer foot the bill for the failure of publicly-owned companies?

As already stated, it's sad to see the loss of 1000's of jobs and possibly the end of the American auto industry, but the American taxpayer's didn't put them in this situation and they sure as hell shouldn't be expected to bail them out of it -- they've been living on borrowed time anyway (IMO).
 
Exactly why I've been calling for the bailout with the exception that these companies have to adhere to new guidelines put in place, and actually enforced, by the government.

One thing they could do NOW to dramatically improve fuel economy would be to bring over all the diesel engines being used in European Ford and GM vehicles. Modern turbodiesels are very fuel efficient and emissions are not at all bad, though hybrids are of course better (except for the pollution from making all those batteries!). Big SUVs are an especially good candidate for torquey, fuel-efficient turbodiesels. It's a sad fact that all of those turbodiesel Mercedes/Dodge vans driving around in DHL or Fed Ex livery get better fuel economy than most big SUVs and trucks.
 
Why is it that foreign car manufacturers with plants inside the US don't have these problems? How many times do we have to resuscitate a domestic car industry that fails to keep itself solvent time and time again? The lost jobs are a tragedy, but the problem is MUCH bigger than tens of thousands of jobs. It's a problem of a fundamentally uncompetitive industry. Saving the jobs alone is just window dressing. We need to remake the industry in a more competitive mold so that those jobs are safe without subsidies and bailouts.

The Big Three and the American public are living in a fantasy world. We have to stop buying large, shoddily made vehicles in the numbers we do and start looking seriously at smaller, more economical and sustainable vehicles. We also need to treat our vehicles as less disposable than we currently do, which demands a better build quality for a longer useful life. The rest of the world learned this harsh lesson in the aftermath of WWII 60 years ago, but we have been able to shield ourselves due to our economic and political power. Now, however, the chickens are coming home to roost.

I'm not saying we can't have any trucks or SUVs anymore, but we all need to re-evaluate just how much we are willing to sacrifice in order to have that type of vehicle. It's no longer the case that we can have our cake and eat it too. The Big Three need to understand that their existence is not a given.

you are a little off by the job count. Losing the big 3 would be worth over 3 mil lost jobs in less than 1 years. You have to remember how far out those companies reach. All their suppliers are going to be hurt and many of them will be forced to shut down.

The US auto industry supports a lot of jobs. And like some one else pointed out letting them fail is bad idea as history has shown.
 
i never cared for big trucks and SUV's they are a waste of money and gas, if those big companies want to keep those products up then they should use their money on making better efficient engines to handle that weight. if they do then im sure they'll get their upkeep back
 
The US auto industry supports a lot of jobs. And like some one else pointed out letting them fail is bad idea as history has shown.

But is it as bad an idea as keeping them at any cost? Besides, there are ways of giving the Big Three and UAW a kick up the backside without necessarily losing all those jobs.
 
What happens if the US gov't "loans" millions if not billions of dollars to these companies and they fail anyway? Why should the US taxpayer foot the bill for the failure of publicly-owned companies?

As already stated, it's sad to see the loss of 1000's of jobs and possibly the end of the American auto industry, but the American taxpayer's didn't put them in this situation and they sure as hell shouldn't be expected to bail them out of it -- they've been living on borrowed time anyway (IMO).
Unfortunately in this case many taxpayers did at least help to get them into this situation by greedily buying those big SUVs and trucks that the big 3 put out. After all, they didn't sell by themselves.
 
you are a little off by the job count. Losing the big 3 would be worth over 3 mil lost jobs in less than 1 years. You have to remember how far out those companies reach. All their suppliers are going to be hurt and many of them will be forced to shut down.

The US auto industry supports a lot of jobs. And like some one else pointed out letting them fail is bad idea as history has shown.
Instead of spending 25 billion in tax payer money for below market rate loans to help keep afloat these poorly run corporations why not spend that money on financial assistant and job training for the people that lose their jobs?


Lethal
 
Instead of spending 25 billion in tax payer money for below market rate loans to help keep afloat these poorly run corporations why not spend that money on financial assistant and job training for the people that lose their jobs?


Lethal

For what jobs? Have you seen the latest job numbers? 250,000 lost in October.

Also, do we really want what little manufacturing we have left erode further?
 
The Americans need to step up their game and start producing something that is better looking, more fuel efficient, better built, and cheaper than the Japanese and Korean competitors.

What about this?
800px-2008_Chevrolet_Malibu_LS.jpg


or this?
800px-Pontiac_G6_GT_sedan.jpg


or this?
2008_Cadillac_CTS.jpg


or this?
800px-2009_Lincoln_MKS_DC.JPG


or this?
800px-2007-GMC-Acadia.jpg


or this?
800px-05-07_Buick_LaCrosse.jpg


or this?
800px-Saturn_Sky.jpg


or this
800px-2007-Saturn-Aura-XE.JPG


There are so many misconceptions that have crushed the domestic auto industry.

P.S. Many great new vehicles are around the corner like this (hybrid version will get 5 mpg better than Camry hybrid--- 38 mpg)

2010-Ford-Fusion-Sport.jpg


this (which gets 300 hp and 27 MPG highway!)
2010-Chevy-Camaro-Production.jpg


this
Ford_Fiesta_mk7_5dr_front_Moscow_autoshow_2008_26_08.jpg


this (which gets 40 mpg and isn't even a hybrid)
Chevy_Cruze.jpg


and if GM can remain in business long enough, this (which of course gets 40 miles of all electric driving and a 50 mpg average after that is exhausted)
800px-ChevyVolt2011ProductionCar.jpg
 
For what jobs? Have you seen the latest job numbers? 250,000 lost in October.

Also, do we really want what little manufacturing we have erode further?
Do we really need to keep mismanaged companies afloat using public funds? How much money should the Feds pass out in sweet heart loans to corporations that fail to show economic viability? Or on the flip side how much money in unnecessary subsidies and tax cuts should be given to profitable companies that don't need any finical assistance? Sorry, I'm not very enthusiastic about corporate welfare.

Will the 25 billion for the auto industry get them to rehire all the people they've laid off over the past few years? Or will those people, and others, still be SOL while the guys who ran the companies into the ground still get their millions a year and golden parachutes?

According to this article jobs in Michigan in chemical manufacturing, food processing and metal fabrication have held steady since 2000 where as the auto manufacturing jobs have tanked. If the government is going to give out sweet loans why not sweet loans to companies that are being run well so they can expand, and training/education money to laid off auto workers so they can get jobs at those better run companies that are now expanding?


Lethal
 
Sorry, I'm not very enthusiastic about corporate welfare.

I'm not for it either, but unfortunately there is likely going to be some newly elected government official that "owes" the auto industry a favor for helping getting them elected, so we all know what that leads to...
 
I totally agree Lethal.

People bleed their hearts out about lost auto worker jobs, while the auto industry execs laugh all the way to the bank. The industry is not healthy. We need to do something about it, and just giving the big three more money will not fix the problem except in the very short term.
 
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