GM has 120 days to live, Ford 7 months.

[trule]

you have the taxes and heath care part of everyone cost. It the retirement benfits that are killing the big 3. They are quickly approaching a 1 to 1 ratio of works to retired workers and lets face it that is not profitable. That above is the same reason why SS is failing. There are to many taking out and not enough putting it in.

Most companies do not have to pay the health care cost of their retired workers.

Actually in Germany essentially everyone has health care so actually the companies are paying the health insurance for retired workers via the insurance premiums for workers. Someone over here in Deutschland told me that for each worker there are 2 non workers being supported...and with negative birth rate it will only get worse.

So why is it a problem for US manufacturing, car makers in particular? Well, its probably easier for the Auto execs to stiff former workers their benefits than it is to actually change their business model...this is what they have been doing the past 30 odd years, works fine for them, and congress is to scared to actually do anything about it.

The big three are well known for their attempts at preventing any form of innovation in the automotive industry. That is, after all, how and why they created the loop hole in the fleet milage requirements for "small trucks"...and then proceeded to flood the market they created with cheap, low tech, crap - sold at a wonderful profit to buyers with finance from non other than...the automakers.

The perfect manufactured market.

Cheaper to buy a congress man and make a market for SUV's than it is to build a better car.

 

[LethalWolfe]

What do you propose to do with the roughly 3 million that would be jobless as a result of the deaths of these companies?

What happened to the people left jobless over the past few years as casualties of the US auto industry? What's going to happen to the soon to be jobless even if Detroit does get all the money it wants? Do you think a GM/Chrysler merger/consolidation would actually create more jobs? What happened to the employees of companies like DHL, Circuit City, and Linens 'n Things? If Home Depot or McDonald's, companies bigger than GM, start to hit the skids does Congress pass special legislation to bail them out too?

It's been said before but I'll say it again. 25-50 billion dollars can go a long way w/regards to finical assistance, education and job training/placement assistance.


Lethal

 

[theBB]

What do you propose to do with the roughly 3 million that would be jobless as a result of the deaths of these companies?

GM employs 266,000 people and sells tons of cars and trucks. If GM goes bankrupt, GM may end up a smaller company after wiping out the pension plans, shareholders and some bondholders, but it certainly would not cause all of the factories to close. Even if it were to close all of its factories, other companies would start manufacturing more cars to make up for the supply short fall. They are trying to scare people into thinking there will be a lot more job losses than there actually would be, so that they can get government hand outs. By the way, they already got $25 billion, now they want $50 billion more. It would be cheaper if we just pay the workers unemployment benefits until the economy recovers.

By the way, even when SUV sales were strong, GM was not doing all that well. GM did not make that many models that sold very well in the past let's say two decades. Face it, if you cannot come up with good looking reliable cars, no matter what union guys get paid, your company is doomed. Who is GM's CEO blaming for Pontiac G6 or G8? Is the failure of those cars the union's fault as well? How about Cobalt being the most unreliable small car in its class when it first came out? How about it being less efficient than almost all other cars in its class? Was it also the union that bet the whole company on SUVs and low gas prices?

 

[quagmire]

GM employs 266,000 people and sells tons of cars and trucks. If GM goes bankrupt, GM may end up a smaller company after wiping out the pension plans, shareholders and some bondholders, but it certainly would not cause all of the factories to close. Even if it were to close all of its factories, other companies would start manufacturing more cars to make up for the supply short fall. They are trying to scare people into thinking there will be a lot more job losses than there actually would be, so that they can get government hand outs. By the way, they already got $25 billion, now they want $50 billion more. It would be cheaper if we just pay the workers unemployment benefits until the economy recovers.

By the way, even when SUV sales were strong, GM was not doing all that well. GM did not make that many models that sold very well in the past let's say two decades. Face it, if you cannot come up with good looking reliable cars, no matter what union guys get paid, your company is doomed. Who is GM's CEO blaming for Pontiac G6 or G8? Is the failure of those cars the union's fault as well? How about Cobalt being the most unreliable small car in its class when it first came out? How about it being less efficient than almost all other cars in its class? Was it also the union that bet the whole company on SUVs and low gas prices?

Fact Check: Yes, GM employs 266,000 people, but there is such thing called the ripple effect. GM, Ford, and Chrysler go bye bye. Since they are the big customers for suppliers, they lose money and they go bye bye, etc. While 3 million maybe wrong, the job losses due to the ripple effect will be huge.

Fact Check: The Cobalt XFE gets 25/37 which is one of the best in its class if not the best( I believe the Civic does 36 and Corolla does 35).

Fact Check: The Pontiac G8 is a pretty damn good car. Just not for the times. Although the best selling trim is the GT which is the V8 equipped model. The V6 is the slow mover.

 

[rdowns]

It's been said before but I'll say it again. 25-50 billion dollars can go a long way w/regards to finical assistance, education and job training/placement assistance.


Lethal

I've seen reports that GM failing would cost the US $195 billion in lost wages and taxes.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I've seen reports that GM failing would cost the US $195 billion in lost wages and taxes.

Care to share or are your sources top secret?


Lethal

 

[rdowns]

Care to share or are your sources top secret?


Lethal

I saw it on ABC News tonight.

EDIT: I was wrong, it's $175 billion. Here's a link.

The Center for Automotive Research estimates that the failure of a major U.S. automaker could cost the American economy $125 billion in lost annual income, and $50 billion in lost tax revenue, totaling $175 billion in the first year alone.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I saw it on ABC News tonight.

EDIT: I was wrong, it's $175 billion. Here's a link.

From a little later in the article

But skeptics ask: What's to ensure that car companies, who are burning through more than $2 billion in cash per month, won't blow the bailout money?

Some argue that bailing out the car companies puts the government on a slippery slope, having to rescue all industries; if you bail out car companies, opponents say, what's stopping the government from rescuing U.S. steel companies or airlines, which have also suffered formidable losses?
"Where are we going to draw the line? We don't have all these blank checks to write out to every industry that's hurting because, certainly, everyone is hurting," Farzas said. "There's the issue of fairness."

Critics also wonder if the government should save companies that have made costly mistakes, such as depending on gas guzzlers and agreeing to bloated union contracts.

So we have a request for 75 billion in tax payer dollars (I originally thought it was 25 billion more for a total of 50 billion but it was actually an additional 50 billion on top of the original 25) to cover the cost of R&D for greener automobiles, retooling factories for greener automobiles, and to cover the healthcare and benefit costs of former employees. At least those are the things I've seen talked about. We pay for their R&D. We pay for refitting their assembly lines. We pay for their employee benefits. And in return we get what? We get the same three auto companies that ran themselves into the ground and will continue to lay-off workers, lobby against CAFE standards, and anything else that they perceive as a threat to their bottom line, while lobbying for tax loop holes so they can horde as much profit as they possibly can. We keep the debt, they keep the profit. Joy of joys. IMO the only thing worse than loaning them 75 billion is loaning them 75 billion w/o any strings attached. Where is this money coming from anyway? As we all know our national debt is already out the window so which Peter gets robbed in order to pay Paul? Which foreign country do we become even more indebted to in order to pull this off?

And it's not like this black hole in the market would persist indefinitely if these automakers went bankrupt. Other car manufacturers would expand to fill the void. Also, who knows, someone might buy up what's left of the Detroit Three for cheap and create a new American car company that, you know, would be run in a sustainable manor.


Link to another story at ABC News.

The U.S. retail industry alone shed 38,100 jobs in October, bringing the total since January to 297,000, according to Michael P. Niemira, chief economist at the International Council of Shopping Centers

Where is the government bail-out for the companies that laid off all these people?


Lethal

EDIT: Just wanted to add that, and this goes w/o saying, the situation is totally screwed up and complicated and no one knows for sure what the best course of action is. My opinions on this matter are just that, opinions. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but seeing nearly a trillion taxpayer dollars worth of bail-outs on the horizon gets me unnerved and wondering where this money will come from and what the long term fallout from it will be. Are we actually fixing anything or just putting off the Piper for a few more years?

 

[dXTC]

What about this?

(several GM cars snipped...)

or this?

The Saturn Sky is the only GM product nowadays that piques my interest. If the Saturn brand has to go, I would hope that Cadillac absorbs the Sky (perhaps adding a touch of Cadillac bling).

 

[quagmire]

The Saturn Sky is the only GM product nowadays that piques my interest. If the Saturn brand has to go, I would hope that Cadillac absorbs the Sky (perhaps adding a touch of Cadillac bling).

No matter Saturn's fate, the Sky is dead. The next gen Kappa's have been cancelled. GM just can't afford them anymore as they would lose $10K per vehicle.

 

[sangosimo]

make better cars. American autos need to take this hit. It is annoying how American autos are always the butt of a bad joke. Maybe they will get their act together after this. take the best of european and japanese cars and make that the american standard.

 

[Eraserhead]

Speaking as a Brit, where we have already experienced what you are experiencing now (i.e. former largest car maker Rover Group going into receivership in 2005), I say it doesn't matter who is making the cars, as long as somebody is. If GM collapses and Toyota thrives, so be it. As long as they are employing American workers, why should it matter?
At the end of the day any profits (or losses) go into the pockets of shareholders, who could be from anywhere on the planet. The origin of the company is irrelevant.
We had demonstrations in the 80s to try and stop Land Rover being taken over by a foreign company. Now it's owned by TATA, an Indian Company. That's business.

I can't believe this hasn't been raised before, I'm sure it was painful in the 80's but now our foreign owned car companies have some of the worlds most efficient factories in the UK.

If Ford/GM go under then Toyota/Honda/Whoever will sell cars instead and they will probably be built in the US, maybe in the same place as the skilled labour is already in place.

 

[iJohnHenry]

Perhaps, but the Golden Days of the UAW/CAW are behind them now.

Foreign manufacturers, although paying fair wages and benefits, do not want Unions in their shops.

 

[dXTC]

No matter Saturn's fate, the Sky is dead. The next gen Kappa's have been cancelled. GM just can't afford them anymore as they would lose $10K per vehicle.

Why does this not surprise me?

...sigh...

Oh well, I'm not yet in the market for a midlife-crisis toy, anyway.

(yeah yeah, sour grapes and all that...)

 

[ryannel2003]

I work at a GM dealership. I can tell you the quality of the newest GM vehicles nearly equals or goes beyond what I have seen on the latest japanese competitors. Has anyone sat inside a new Toyota Camry? The interior is full of cheap, unattractive plastics, the seats are uncomfortable and the handling more or less is similar to a '60's era Lincoln. The new Chevrolet Malibu also has some ugly surfaces, but impresses with its style and decent drivetrain options. GM needs to kill Pontiac; it's worthless as a brand and the G8 could be moved to Chevrolet and be renamed Impala SS. Saturn is also a dying breed, though the Aura is an attractive vehicle. Cadillac needs to stop relying on the CTS, re-design DTS and STS (was originally going to merged into one vehicle; now cancelled due to money issues). XLR is good as dead.

Chevrolet is improving, with products like Aveo, Malibu, Silverado, Traverese, Tahoe/Suburban. I agree with Erik though, why does GM need 4 or 5 of the same vehicle? This killed them in the 80's, and was the reason why (along with quality) the japanese have gained so much ground. The 80's stigma still hurts GM badly, and now that they relied on SUV's and Trucks for so long, is the reason why they are loosing this battle. Had money been invested in cars to begin with, I highly doubt this situation would be as dramatic.

I fear coming to work one day and seeing the doors locked with a large "Closed" sign on the door. If GM can't pull through this, the US will not recover for quite some time.

 

[Eraserhead]

Foreign manufacturers, although sometimes paying fair wages and benefits, do not want Unions in their shops.

Fixed it for you.

 

[jecapaga]

I work at a GM dealership. I can tell you the quality of the newest GM vehicles nearly equals or goes beyond what I have seen on the latest japanese competitors. Has anyone sat inside a new Toyota Camry? The interior is full of cheap, unattractive plastics, the seats are uncomfortable and the handling more or less is similar to a '60's era Lincoln. The new Chevrolet Malibu also has some ugly surfaces, but impresses with its style and decent drivetrain options. GM needs to kill Pontiac; it's worthless as a brand and the G8 could be moved to Chevrolet and be renamed Impala SS. Saturn is also a dying breed, though the Aura is an attractive vehicle. Cadillac needs to stop relying on the CTS, re-design DTS and STS (was originally going to merged into one vehicle; now cancelled due to money issues). XLR is good as dead.

Chevrolet is improving, with products like Aveo, Malibu, Silverado, Traverese, Tahoe/Suburban. I agree with Erik though, why does GM need 4 or 5 of the same vehicle? This killed them in the 80's, and was the reason why (along with quality) the japanese have gained so much ground. The 80's stigma still hurts GM badly, and now that they relied on SUV's and Trucks for so long, is the reason why they are loosing this battle. Had money been invested in cars to begin with, I highly doubt this situation would be as dramatic.

I fear coming to work one day and seeing the doors locked with a large "Closed" sign on the door. If GM can't pull through this, the US will not recover for quite some time.

I agree with much of your post. While I'd never consider an american car because there really isn't anything interesting about them. Body styles are cookie cutter and bland to say the least. Even if, as you say, they compare favorably to the Japanese market. It's LOSING and not LOOSING. Learn it. American car manufacturers haven't heard the msg for the last 20 years.

 

[takao]

Perhaps, but the Golden Days of the UAW/CAW are behind them now.

if unions are the problem for car manufacturers then the european car industry would not exist

let's say it's not surprising that the most troubled german car company is owned by GM

that the should have been clear where the chrysler, gm and ford were heading once Mercedes bailed out of chrysler voluntarily losing billions in the process

 

[danny_w]

I agree with much of your post. While I'd never consider an american car because there really isn't anything interesting about them. Body styles are cookie cutter and bland to say the least. Even if, as you say, they compare favorably to the Japanese market. It's LOSING and not LOOSING. Learn it. American car manufacturers haven't heard the msg for the last 20 years.

That is where I take exception, at lest when compared to the uber-bland Japanese cars. American body styles are certainly not the best, but they lose nothing against the spartan Camry and Maxima body styles.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

make better cars. American autos need to take this hit. It is annoying how American autos are always the butt of a bad joke. Maybe they will get their act together after this. take the best of european and japanese cars and make that the american standard.

really American cars are really step up in quilty just they are still dealing with an age old reputation. Since the mid 90's American cars where on par with their foreign competitors in reliability. Just they are still dealing with that crappy reputation from back then.

Honda and Toyota quality and reliability has dropped some but still very good and they have the reputation they build during the 80's and early 90's.

Remember the reputation last a very long time long after the truth changes.

Lastly please note I drive a Nissan and my next car will more than likely be either a VW or a Honda. Though a few American cars are on my radar for next year when I plan on replacing my Sentra. I just have an year to look around and decide on what I want.

 

[rdowns]

Since the mid 90's American cars where on par with their foreign competitors in reliability. Just they are still dealing with that crappy reputation from back then.

Honda and Toyota quality and reliability has dropped some but still very good and they have the reputation they build during the 80's and early 90's.

Remember the reputation last a very long time long after the truth changes.

Nonsense. I worked for an auto extended warranty company for 10 years. The vast majority of American cars still trail the Japanese in reliability by a pretty wide margin.

 

[quagmire]

Nonsense. I worked for an auto extended warranty company for 10 years. The vast majority of American cars still trail the Japanese in reliability by a pretty wide margin.

Those people who buy the extended warranty buy it so they can neglect maintenance on their vehicle, but still be covered.

Seriously, my experience of GM's late models beg to differ.

 

[danny_w]

Those people who buy the extended warranty buy it so they can neglect maintenance on their vehicle, but still be covered.

Seriously, my experience of GM's late models beg to differ.

So does my experience with Ford (Lincoln). I have had many cars over my lifetime (some 37 at last count, including a VW, Mazda, Nissan, and other foreign cars) and my 2001 Town Car is overall the best car I have ever owned. Of course my next car is going to get better mileage (much better I hope) but I always wanted a Lincoln ever since I was a kid in the 60's.

 

[ryannel2003]

I own a '90's era Cadillac Seville (2000 to be exact) and the build quality is disgusting. For what was once a $53k vehicle, my old '00 Toyota had a much higher quality interior. It's not uncommon for plastic pieces to pop off, rubber door molding to fall off, and misaligned doors on the body. Reliability has been on par for what an 8 year old Cadillac would need; blown speakers, ignition switch, steering shaft, trunk seal. The only major issue with my car is a 60MPH+ vibration, which is extremely common in most all K-body Cadillac's. I do love it though.

Get inside my Cadillac, and then go sit inside the new '09 CTS. You'll see how much improvement has been made. Same with all GM vehicles.

 

[iAthena]

One thing they could do NOW to dramatically improve fuel economy would be to bring over all the diesel engines being used in European Ford and GM vehicles. Modern turbodiesels are very fuel efficient and emissions are not at all bad, though hybrids are of course better (except for the pollution from making all those batteries!). Big SUVs are an especially good candidate for torquey, fuel-efficient turbodiesels. It's a sad fact that all of those turbodiesel Mercedes/Dodge vans driving around in DHL or Fed Ex livery get better fuel economy than most big SUVs and trucks.

Amen to that. I keep reading about the 40-50 mpg diesel versions of just about every car made by the big three, but they won't import them here.

Government doesn't have to bail out these companies. They just have to adjust the diesel standards now instead of waiting the next two years for the big three to add the gadgets that VW, Mercedes and soon Subaru and others use to bring their diesel here.