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Uh, the biggest Apple forum on the internet?? Well I dunno about that but you should keep in mind that this is "Rumor Site" and it's not the best place for a company to take extremely seriously. Apple does have their own discussion forums. Another thing, there's a major difference between complaining and constructive criticism, MR does more complaining and that tends to get overlooked due to being overly excessive and annoying.

Although many people have legitimate issues I hardly ever see a post where someone takes responsibility for their system issues, they always blame Apple or Lion. When someone comes here with a major rant they always leave out the important things like their system type, all softwares and haxies installed and such. This leaves them open game to press blame without accepting it. Do you honestly think Apple can take posts like that into consideration? That's why they prefer to have people report issues on their website in the designated area.
When people complain here they are looking for the majority to join in on them and gang up on Apple. When you have to send your concerns to Apple you are alone, but I'm sure Apple takes you more seriously that way. Just sayin'.

Aside from Apple's official forums, this forum is easily the largest Apple forum on the internet. There are 6500 individuals browsing this forum right now. There are 1.2 million active threads. And yes, the domain is macrumors.com, but this is a forum for discussion about lots of things aside from rumors (this comes as no to surprise to any of us).

mac-forums.com comes up ahead of this place when you google "apple forums", but is much smaller. The most users ever at mac-forums.com was about 8500. forums.macrumors.com's highest user count is 46,157. :eek:

Of course there are lots of complainers here. That's how it works. The people who are happy aren't yelling about how happy they are, or how not-broken their machine is. :) And I agree a lot of people complaining are crazy or haven't tried to figure out how to solve their problem.

edit: and I am in no way asserting that Lion is perfect. I have a couple major gripes but I deal.
 
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i don't care about the eye candy. i don't use mission control. in fact, i don't use the dock, haven't for years.

what i love about lion is that it's been stable, and fast for me. i earn my living on my macbook pro, and that's what i need most.

i wish apple, (& microsoft, for that matter) would focus on this:
speed, stability, invisibility, simplicity.

i don't want to be thinking about the OS, i want to be focused on the WORK (or play) that i'm doing...
 
i don't care about the eye candy. i don't use mission control. in fact, i don't use the dock, haven't for years.

what i love about lion is that it's been stable, and fast for me. i earn my living on my macbook pro, and that's what i need most.

i wish apple, (& microsoft, for that matter) would focus on this:
speed, stability, invisibility, simplicity.

i don't want to be thinking about the OS, i want to be focused on the WORK (or play) that i'm doing...

Both Apple and Microsoft are "dumbing down" their OSes to the point that you won't have a computer; you'll have a toy you bought at Toys-R-Us.
 
Both Apple and Microsoft are "dumbing down" their OSes to the point that you won't have a computer; you'll have a toy you bought at Toys-R-Us.
Adding features similar to what iOS has to OS X to make using a computer easier for the general public is not dumbing it down. You still have the command line, you still have most of the software (sans PPC, and if you're still on that you should have found a Universal solution years ago, as Apple hasn't sold a PPC Mac since 2006), you still have everything available that allows you to do real work. Where exactly is this phantom "dumbing down" you speak of? Features borrowed from iOS aren't it.
 
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Mackilroy said:
Both Apple and Microsoft are "dumbing down" their OSes to the point that you won't have a computer; you'll have a toy you bought at Toys-R-Us.
Adding features similar to what iOS has to OS X to make using a computer easier for the general public is not dumbing it down. You still have the command line, you still have most of the software (sans PPC, and if you're still on that you should have found a Universal solution years ago, as Apple hasn't sold a PPC Mac since 2006), you still have everything available that allows you to do real work. Where exactly is this phantom "dumbing down" you speak of? Features borrowed from iOS aren't it.

Address book is now useless for work.
iCal looks like a Cabbage Patch app.
Expose is pooched.
Yes, Apple has dumbed down OS X
 
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Since I use the full Office suite for work I am planning my switch back to PC. Also means I have no reason not to switch my iPhone 4S for Android.
I am not complaining - I am switching.
 
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Since I use the full Office suite for work I am planning my switch back to PC. Also means I have no reason not to switch my iPhone 4S for Android.
I am not complaining - I am switching.

This is why my main desktop is a Win7 and my main laptop in Lion/win7/Backtrack. Also if your not using an android you should be, it is farrrrrrr superior (not locked up and 4g for years now). Understand that no one OS is the best or most progressive.
 
Since I use the full Office suite for work I am planning my switch back to PC. Also means I have no reason not to switch my iPhone 4S for Android.
I am not complaining - I am switching.
I'm not quite there yet but did go back to Snow Leopard. Liberating to say the least. When 10.8 comes out I'll give it some scrutiny and decide from there but I have a feeling that iLion is just the beginning of the iOS takeover.

My company provided me an iPhone so I'm stuck with it. I've often said it does everything amazingly well except it's just a lousy phone. Were it up to me I'd just duct tape a crappy $19 Nokia to the back of an ipod touch. :D
 
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Address book is now useless for work.
iCal looks like a Cabbage Patch app.
Expose is pooched.
Yes, Apple has dumbed down OS X
You're talking about looks, not actual use. Address Book still allows you to add people in and keep track of their contact info, right? iCal still allows you to keep track of events and such, right? You don't like how it looks – fine, but that is not equivalent to it being useless. And if you do dislike them, there are readily available alternatives. I don't use iCal or Address Book at all, even on my old MacBook which is only capable of running up to 10.6.
 
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Address book is now useless for work.
iCal looks like a Cabbage Patch app.
Expose is pooched.
Yes, Apple has dumbed down OS X

LOL

I use address book for work

iCal looked stupid in Snow Leopard and Lion..no change

I know windows not laid out in a 3x3 grid are more than you can handle, I'm sorry..oh wait you can't move apps from a non-active window to another non-active window...thats why you give each app it's own desktop.

No it's not been dumbed down, smart people have figure out how to bring Snow Leopard to Lion..
 
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LOL

I use address book for work

iCal looked stupid in Snow Leopard and Lion..no change

I know windows not laid out in a 3x3 grid are more than you can handle, I'm sorry..oh wait you can't move apps from a non-active window to another non-active window...thats why you give each app it's own desktop.

No it's not been dumbed down, smart people have figure out how to bring Snow Leopard to Lion..

Address Book is pathetic in Lion. A 2 column view with a stupid, worthless page flipping is annoying as all hell. Do you have any idea how many Wong's, Wang's and Lin's there are? Putting people into their respective groups makes life a lot easier and it is annoying to have to flip pages just to see groups and individuals. Stupid ****ing design.

iCal sucks harder in Lion. No mini-month? Really? That is pathetic.

In terms of Mission Control. Most likely you have a simple workflow with only a few Applications and windows open. I typically have 40+ windows at any given time. You see, I am a scientist, I use my computer for work, not making iPhoto vacation albums to send to grandma.
And NO, App Expose is not a subsitute because it takes you out of Mission Control and now you can't drag you windows between Spaces.
I do not want to have 10 - 15 spaces and separating content by Application is a ****** workflow.

Typical Content for writing a research paper includes:
  • Application
    - # of Windows open
    - Use
  • Microsoft Word:
    -2 - 3
    - Writing articles, referencing old work
  • Papers:
    - 1
    - For organizing journal articles
  • Bookends:
    - 1 - 2
    - For organizing references cited
  • Microsoft Excel
    - 1 - 5
    - This is data. I write about data
  • DataGraph
    - 1 - 5
    - Excel's graphing process sucks
  • iView Media Pro
    - 1
    - For organizing images
  • Adobe Photoshop
    - 1 - 10
    - For measuring/adjusting images
  • Adobe Illustrator
    - 1 - 4
    - For making Figures
  • Adobe Bridge
    - 1
    - For organizing Illustrator templates
  • Preview
    - 10 - 20
    - For seeing individual images, copy/paste from journal articles
  • Finder
    - 5 - 10
    - For organizing individual files
  • BusyCal
    - 1
    - iCal sucks these days, even in Snow Leopard
  • Address Book
    - 1
    - I have a lot of people to e-mail and call during the day
  • Mail
    - 1 - 3
    - Primary window plus some e-mails I might be writing
  • iTunes
    - 1
    - Music
  • Custom Programs
    - 4
    - For custom data collection, measurement, organization, reporting


I do NOT have the option to organize content by Application and put each application in its own Space. Content is organized by use. The images I'm writing about are opened on the display next to the Word documents. Excel is paired with Datagraph except for the graphs that I am currently writing about, which go on the screen next to the Word Documents. Etc. Etc.

Maybe you have a simple workflow. Good for you. Sometimes I wish I could be content with simple things, but then I remember that being able to do complicated things in a simple manner rocks. Snow Leopard lets me do complicated things in a simple manner. Lion is Simplistic and cannot handle workflows with lots of content.

The #1 advantage that OSX had over Windows as Content/Window management. That was the reason I have loved Apple, because Apple made it easy to handle a lot of content. Lion does NOT handle a lot of content very well at all. Lion barely handles dual monitors.

So don't pretend that Lion is a capable OS as compared to Snow Leopard. Lion's Mission Control, Address Book, iCal, etc. is a pathetic attempt at content management. Version Control could have been great, but is horribly implemented, iCloud is still buggy and doesn't provide basic syncing of Contacts and Calendars with Snow Leopard, gestures are nice but that is about it.

This is the first OS release where content management got worse. Starting from 10.4, I have enthusiastically upgraded every time and been really, really happy with it (except for 10.6 Expose, but there's a hack for that). Lion, was taken off my main computer within 2 weeks. If I could put Snow Leopard on my macbook air I would, but luckily I only have to use the macbook air when I travel.

Hopefully Windows or someone else will pick up the slack by the time 10.8 comes out. I doubt that Apple will get better under Tim Cook. Tim is not a product person. He has no taste and no vision. He is good at supply management, not product design.
 
Address Book is pathetic in Lion. A 2 column view with a stupid, worthless page flipping is annoying as all hell. Do you have any idea how many Wong's, Wang's and Lin's there are? Putting people into their respective groups makes life a lot easier and it is annoying to have to flip pages just to see groups and individuals. Stupid ****ing design.

iCal sucks harder in Lion. No mini-month? Really? That is pathetic.

In terms of Mission Control. Most likely you have a simple workflow with only a few Applications and windows open. I typically have 40+ windows at any given time. You see, I am a scientist, I use my computer for work, not making iPhoto vacation albums to send to grandma.
And NO, App Expose is not a subsitute because it takes you out of Mission Control and now you can't drag you windows between Spaces.
I do not want to have 10 - 15 spaces and separating content by Application is a ****** workflow.

Typical Content for writing a research paper includes:
  • Application
    - # of Windows open
    - Use
  • Microsoft Word:
    -2 - 3
    - Writing articles, referencing old work
  • Papers:
    - 1
    - For organizing journal articles
  • Bookends:
    - 1 - 2
    - For organizing references cited
  • Microsoft Excel
    - 1 - 5
    - This is data. I write about data
  • DataGraph
    - 1 - 5
    - Excel's graphing process sucks
  • iView Media Pro
    - 1
    - For organizing images
  • Adobe Photoshop
    - 1 - 10
    - For measuring/adjusting images
  • Adobe Illustrator
    - 1 - 4
    - For making Figures
  • Adobe Bridge
    - 1
    - For organizing Illustrator templates
  • Preview
    - 10 - 20
    - For seeing individual images, copy/paste from journal articles
  • Finder
    - 5 - 10
    - For organizing individual files
  • BusyCal
    - 1
    - iCal sucks these days, even in Snow Leopard
  • Address Book
    - 1
    - I have a lot of people to e-mail and call during the day
  • Mail
    - 1 - 3
    - Primary window plus some e-mails I might be writing
  • iTunes
    - 1
    - Music
  • Custom Programs
    - 4
    - For custom data collection, measurement, organization, reporting


I do NOT have the option to organize content by Application and put each application in its own Space. Content is organized by use. The images I'm writing about are opened on the display next to the Word documents. Excel is paired with Datagraph except for the graphs that I am currently writing about, which go on the screen next to the Word Documents. Etc. Etc.

Maybe you have a simple workflow. Good for you. Sometimes I wish I could be content with simple things, but then I remember that being able to do complicated things in a simple manner rocks. Snow Leopard lets me do complicated things in a simple manner. Lion is Simplistic and cannot handle workflows with lots of content.

The #1 advantage that OSX had over Windows as Content/Window management. That was the reason I have loved Apple, because Apple made it easy to handle a lot of content. Lion does NOT handle a lot of content very well at all. Lion barely handles dual monitors.

So don't pretend that Lion is a capable OS as compared to Snow Leopard. Lion's Mission Control, Address Book, iCal, etc. is a pathetic attempt at content management. Version Control could have been great, but is horribly implemented, iCloud is still buggy and doesn't provide basic syncing of Contacts and Calendars with Snow Leopard, gestures are nice but that is about it.

This is the first OS release where content management got worse. Starting from 10.4, I have enthusiastically upgraded every time and been really, really happy with it (except for 10.6 Expose, but there's a hack for that). Lion, was taken off my main computer within 2 weeks. If I could put Snow Leopard on my macbook air I would, but luckily I only have to use the macbook air when I travel.

Hopefully Windows or someone else will pick up the slack by the time 10.8 comes out. I doubt that Apple will get better under Tim Cook. Tim is not a product person. He has no taste and no vision. He is good at supply management, not product design.

For you it is....

The rest is just a rant
 
For you it is....

The rest is just a rant

Or it is data showing why Mission Control does not work. Separating Applications into different Spaces does not work when that content must be viewed together with 15 other applications.

Are you telling me you use 15 Spaces in Mission Control and 40+ windows?
 
Or it is data showing why Mission Control does not work. Separating Applications into different Spaces does not work when that content must be viewed together with 15 other applications.

Are you telling me you use 15 Spaces in Mission Control and 40+ windows?

I use 12 spaces not arranged by usage..and the number of windows depends on what I'm doing..

You're obviously quite smart I'm sure you'll figure out a way to make it work..

It was a rant because the system is crap because it doesn't work for you.. but that does not by definition make it crap..but it does workfor me, now that I've used on and off again since July.. I like it in many ways better, but that doesn't make Snow Leopard crap..

P.S. are you from Kalamazoo?
 
I use 12 spaces not arranged by usage..and the number of windows depends on what I'm doing..

You're obviously quite smart I'm sure you'll figure out a way to make it work..

It was a rant because the system is crap because it doesn't work for you.. but that does not by definition make it crap..but it does workfor me, now that I've used on and off again since July.. I like it in many ways better, but that doesn't make Snow Leopard crap..

P.S. are you from Kalamazoo?

How do you work with such small Spaces? All, that swiping back and forth just to move windows around, or dealing with all that windows sliding animation.

I guess it is a rant because I have very low tolerance for anything that, in my opinion, is wasteful. I find the UI of Lion to be full of wasteful, inefficient steps. i.e. why Duplicate a document and make me close the old one? That is just one more, extraneous step that isn't needed. Bugs me every time.

Overall, there are very few bugs in Lion, but a lot of things that bug me.

I'm not from Kalamazoo, but I do have an old Gibson Mercury Amp that was built there.
 
How do you work with such small Spaces? All, that swiping back and forth just to move windows around, or dealing with all that windows sliding animation.

You can option-click on inactive spaces in Mission Control. No swiping necessary.
 
In Lion, I move apps between spaces with no trouble at all. Not sure what the previous posters are talking about.
Anyway, I'm still making money and getting my work done with Lion, so I have no complains.

The little annoyances will eventually get fixed.
I'll never go back to Windows... Sorry, not now not ever.

And those people talking about Lion apps looking like toys, wait until you see Windows 8.
 
Address Book is pathetic in Lion. A 2 column view with a stupid, worthless page flipping is annoying as all hell. Do you have any idea how many Wong's, Wang's and Lin's there are? Putting people into their respective groups makes life a lot easier and it is annoying to have to flip pages just to see groups and individuals. Stupid ****ing design.

iCal sucks harder in Lion. No mini-month? Really? That is pathetic.

In terms of Mission Control. Most likely you have a simple workflow with only a few Applications and windows open. I typically have 40+ windows at any given time. You see, I am a scientist, I use my computer for work, not making iPhoto vacation albums to send to grandma.
And NO, App Expose is not a subsitute because it takes you out of Mission Control and now you can't drag you windows between Spaces.
I do not want to have 10 - 15 spaces and separating content by Application is a ****** workflow.

Typical Content for writing a research paper includes:
  • Application
    - # of Windows open
    - Use
  • Microsoft Word:
    -2 - 3
    - Writing articles, referencing old work
  • Papers:
    - 1
    - For organizing journal articles
  • Bookends:
    - 1 - 2
    - For organizing references cited
  • Microsoft Excel
    - 1 - 5
    - This is data. I write about data
  • DataGraph
    - 1 - 5
    - Excel's graphing process sucks
  • iView Media Pro
    - 1
    - For organizing images
  • Adobe Photoshop
    - 1 - 10
    - For measuring/adjusting images
  • Adobe Illustrator
    - 1 - 4
    - For making Figures
  • Adobe Bridge
    - 1
    - For organizing Illustrator templates
  • Preview
    - 10 - 20
    - For seeing individual images, copy/paste from journal articles
  • Finder
    - 5 - 10
    - For organizing individual files
  • BusyCal
    - 1
    - iCal sucks these days, even in Snow Leopard
  • Address Book
    - 1
    - I have a lot of people to e-mail and call during the day
  • Mail
    - 1 - 3
    - Primary window plus some e-mails I might be writing
  • iTunes
    - 1
    - Music
  • Custom Programs
    - 4
    - For custom data collection, measurement, organization, reporting


I do NOT have the option to organize content by Application and put each application in its own Space. Content is organized by use. The images I'm writing about are opened on the display next to the Word documents. Excel is paired with Datagraph except for the graphs that I am currently writing about, which go on the screen next to the Word Documents. Etc. Etc.

Maybe you have a simple workflow. Good for you. Sometimes I wish I could be content with simple things, but then I remember that being able to do complicated things in a simple manner rocks. Snow Leopard lets me do complicated things in a simple manner. Lion is Simplistic and cannot handle workflows with lots of content.

The #1 advantage that OSX had over Windows as Content/Window management. That was the reason I have loved Apple, because Apple made it easy to handle a lot of content. Lion does NOT handle a lot of content very well at all. Lion barely handles dual monitors.

So don't pretend that Lion is a capable OS as compared to Snow Leopard. Lion's Mission Control, Address Book, iCal, etc. is a pathetic attempt at content management. Version Control could have been great, but is horribly implemented, iCloud is still buggy and doesn't provide basic syncing of Contacts and Calendars with Snow Leopard, gestures are nice but that is about it.

This is the first OS release where content management got worse. Starting from 10.4, I have enthusiastically upgraded every time and been really, really happy with it (except for 10.6 Expose, but there's a hack for that). Lion, was taken off my main computer within 2 weeks. If I could put Snow Leopard on my macbook air I would, but luckily I only have to use the macbook air when I travel.

Hopefully Windows or someone else will pick up the slack by the time 10.8 comes out. I doubt that Apple will get better under Tim Cook. Tim is not a product person. He has no taste and no vision. He is good at supply management, not product design.


You will be OK on snow leopard until 10.8. Apple will provide security updates for 10.6 until then.

Swapping windows between spaces in Mission Control is a bit of a nuisance. You have to visit each space individually to move the window.

When an program has more than 5 windows open, ungrouping them still does not display all the windows clearly.

Here is a basic example of this problem along with what Apple should do instead when you spread the windows in Mission Control:
 

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You will be OK on snow leopard until 10.8. Apple will provide security updates for 10.6 until then.

Firstly, regardless of past history, please don't post something as fact when you can't provide anything to back that up.


Swapping windows between spaces in Mission Control is a bit of a nuisance. You have to visit each space individually to move the window.
Agreed, Apple could make transferring application windows between spaces much easier.

When an program has more than 5 windows open, ungrouping them still does not display all the windows clearly.


I would certainly like to know how you made that screenshot? :confused: When in All App Expose the menubar doesn't remain on the desktop . Did you just manually put those windows together to make a point? ;) Also, isn't that Snow Leopard you're using??? I can tell. Please be legit if you're gonna shoot Lion down. :rolleyes:
I have 6 application windows ungrouped and they are perfectly aligned as shown in my screenshot vs. yours.
 

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No it's not been dumbed down, smart people have figure out how to bring Snow Leopard to Lion..

Its dumb that you would have to do this! Why would you "upgrade" just to disable all the stupid crap the upgrade gave you and have to figure out how to get it to work like the previous system? I would say its has been dumbed down.
 
Firstly, regardless of past history, please don't post something as fact when you can't provide anything to back that up.



Agreed, Apple could make transferring application windows between spaces much easier.




I would certainly like to know how you made that screenshot? :confused: When in All App Expose the menubar doesn't remain on the desktop as in my attached screenshot. Did you just manually put those windows together to make a point? ;)
I have 6 application windows ungrouped and they are perfectly aligned.

Well the first seems to be common practice for apple when it comes to security updates for previous versions of Mac OS. But your right, its not set in stone anywhere.

The first screenshot is if you have six windows spread in Mission Control.
The second screenshot is just expose, the 10.5 and earlier version, which I used as a suggestion for a solution to the issue
 
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Well the first seems to be common practice for apple when it comes to security updates for previous versions of Mac OS. But your right, its not set in stone anywhere.

The first screenshot is if you have six windows spread in Mission Control.
The second screenshot is just expose, the 10.5 and earlier version, which I used as a suggestion for a solution to the issue

But you're not being honest in posting illegitimate screenshots. This is the issue with Macrumors. It creates FUD. A newcomer that might want to switch from Windows to OS X will see your post and the wrong screenshot showing the supposedly "Lion Expose" and it scare them from wanting to use Lion.

If you need to prove a problem about Lion post a Lion screenshot as I did above. I am not experiencing this defect in All App Expose in Lion.
 
But you're not being honest in posting illegitimate screenshots. This is the issue with Macrumors. It creates FUD. A newcomer that might want to switch from Windows to OS X will see your post and the wrong screenshot showing the supposedly "Lion Expose" and it scare them from wanting to use Lion.

If you need to prove a problem about Lion post a Lion screenshot as I did above. I am not experiencing this defect in All App Expose in Lion.

I dont get what is illegitimate. One screenshot is from Lion, as I said , and the other is just a shot of an older form of expose in Leopard.

Im not talking about app expose in Lion by the way. Just Mission Control. App expose is fine in Lion.
 
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