Google CEO Calls FBI's Request for Apple Backdoor 'A Troubling Precedent'

Apple should just release the information in the format the govt releases information to the public through fioa -

Aclu-v-ashcroft-redacted.jpg
 
geniusj said:
Well, this isn't quite as bad as it looked when I first saw the headlines. Basically, they want the ability to brute force the passcode. I'm actually surprised that they haven't figured out a way to be able to brute force it already. This seems like a pretty inefficient way to do it too. They'll be bounded by the speed of the phone. You'd think they'd try and get the data itself off of the phone and attempt the brute force using their own systems. It's just an AES block cipher, isn't it?

Either way, if your password is good enough, even this special build of iOS probably wouldn't matter all that much.
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Stopping at headlines is what they (FBI and others) want.
Try this for a bit more detail: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...fight-the-doj-in-iphone-backdoor-crypto-case/

Especially look at the detail on the US Attorney fronting the FBI for this.
All is far more than it appears.
 
AZREOSpecialist said:
The government has no right to order Apple to do this, and I support Apple and every other company on earth fighting such orders all the way to the Supreme Court if that's what it takes. Maybe the FBI should knock on the door of the NSA for some assistance...
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What on earth does this have to do with Obama? Obama doesn't run the FBI.
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Obama does run FBI and Justice Department. Brush up on your civics.
 
aaronvan said:
Actually, he does. The FBI is part of the executive branch.
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The legal front end for this case is a US Attorney appointed by Obama who was the Deputy Mayor of Homeland Security.
That's just one of the many aspects of this "warrant / writ".

It is machiavellianly convoluted.
 
mikecorp said:
ohh I did not know that, sorry FBI you need to wait when terrorists update to latest hardware, then chop the fingers and you are in.
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Last I heard the fingerprint sensor detects whether or not the finger is "alive" to keep security sharp. I may be mistaken though
 
mikecorp said:
ohh I did not know that, sorry FBI you need to wait when terrorists update to latest hardware, then chop the fingers and you are in.
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Only if you within 48 hour window or phone hasn't been turned off. Then you still need passcode.
[doublepost=1455822430][/doublepost]Suggest everyone up their passcode to ten digits and add some letters. Then even brute force code entry will take thousands of years.
 
WissMAN said:
So this special iOS the FBI wants Apple to build would only work on a 5c series (or older) iPhone.

Newer Apple phones, starting with iPhone 5S, have a special, separate processor that handles passcodes and fingerprints, which is called Secure Enclave.

These newer iPhones with the SE chip detects this exact course of action and would not accept the special compromised iOS. In fact, the 10 strikes your wiped and the delay process is no longer in the iOS, rather, it is in the SE chip - making the iOS change irrelevant.

My personal thought is why doesn't the FBI take the iPhone to Apple and say, "please download all the data from this one phone". Of course the precedent is set... The FBI keeps coming back for "just one more iPhone".

But as stated, with the hardware upgrades of the iPhone 5s (and newer), this is a moot point. It absolutely cannot be done the way it's being described for the iPhone 5s and newer series.

I guess the FBI is lucky it is not a 6... At least they could Make the request with a iPhone 5c.

I wonder how many 5c and older iPhones are out there.
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Actually this is partially incorrect. In this case the software that the FBI is asking for will only work on the iPhone in question. Apple would have to re-write the software for each individual iPhone 5C.

Also as it turns out Apple has the capabilities to update the operating system in the secure enclave to achieve the same results. You can read Ben Thompson's explanation of all this here.

I wonder if Apple wouldn't have been better served to hack this 5C quietly and save the court battle for a different time and a different case. No matter which way this goes there's going to be a large percentage of people not happy with the end result.
 
HEK said:
Suggest everyone up their passcode to ten digits and add some letters. Then even brute force code entry will take thousands of years.
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If it is a complex passcode then the FBI will lose interest. Other tasks will become more compelling than trying to get at contents of a dead perp's phone. Unless of course it was never about just this one phone this one time.

rocknblogger said:
Also as it turns out Apple has the capabilities to update the operating system in the secure enclave to achieve the same results. You can read Ben Thompson's explanation of all this here.

I wonder if Apple wouldn't have been better served to hack this 5C quietly and save the court battle for a different time and a different case. No matter which way this goes there's going to be a large percentage of people not happy with the end result.
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Hacking this phone quietly would have been a huge risk. Apple's appeal of the court order up through the judicial system is the better approach (unless as some suggest it's a false flag operation in which case THAT'S an even greater risk if you ask me).

In both cases that risk would apply to both Apple and the government. Even though Apple would clearly have been responding only due to pressure by the government, it's Apple's fortunes that would take the more immediate hit. Nonetheless, economic implications for assorted data-privacy-dependent US businesses would be very bad, and would be laid at the government's door. The government would probably fall if it we had a parliamentary system in the USA. Since we don't (although tthe Congress has almost acted that way a few times in the past 7 years), it's hard to say what would happen.
 
macfacts said:
If it is "enforced by the hardware", why doesn't Tim Cook just say it is impossible instead of just saying "I don't want to do it"?
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Because it isn't impossible with a custom backdoor'ed iOS, at least not for an iPhone 5C. The 80ms delay per attempt is a trivial amount, if a 4-digit passcode was used.
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rocknblogger said:
Also as it turns out Apple has the capabilities to update the operating system in the secure enclave to achieve the same results. You can read Ben Thompson's explanation of all this here.
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FYI, that assertion is second hand from someone else's tweet -- who has simply said his source is "Apple", without identifying who said it or referencing a document.

And as someone else has already counter-tweeted: that's contradicted by the iOS Security guide.
 
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LizKat said:
If it is a complex passcode then the FBI will lose interest. Other tasks will become more compelling than trying to get at contents of a dead perp's phone. Unless of course it was never about just this one phone this one time.



Hacking this phone quietly would have been a huge risk. Apple's appeal of the court order up through the judicial system is the better approach (unless as some suggest it's a false flag operation in which case THAT'S an even greater risk if you ask me).

In both cases that risk would apply to both Apple and the government. Even though Apple would clearly have been responding only due to pressure by the government, it's Apple's fortunes that would take the more immediate hit. Nonetheless, economic implications for assorted data-privacy-dependent US businesses would be very bad, and would be laid at the government's door. The government would probably fall if it we had a parliamentary system in the USA. Since we don't (although tthe Congress has almost acted that way a few times in the past 7 years), it's hard to say what would happen.
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I agree 100% about doing it quietly and I'm not for a minute saying that that's what they should have done. In the end I think Apple, and by extension the rest of us, will lose this case due to terrorism being a hot button issue. Most people will simply refuse to look at any possible implications because all they hear is terrorist terrorist terrorist.

I'm just thinking that a protracted legal battle might be more winnable if the case would revolve around an iPhone in a drug, murder, corruption or some other crime type of case.

And you're right. Hacking the phone quietly would be a risk but I think not as big of a risk when considering the precedent and implications of a loss in the Supreme Court. The quiet risk is bad PR, a loss in the Supreme Court has much bigger implications (for all of us).
 
rocknblogger said:
I agree 100% about doing it quietly and I'm not for a minute saying that that's what they should have done. In the end I think Apple, and by extension the rest of us, will lose this case due to terrorism being a hot button issue. Most people will simply refuse to look at any possible implications because all they hear is terrorist terrorist terrorist.

I'm just thinking that a protracted legal battle might be more winnable if the case would revolve around an iPhone in a drug, murder, corruption or some other crime type of case.

And you're right. Hacking the phone quietly would be a risk but I think not as big of a risk when considering the precedent and implications of a loss in the Supreme Court. The quiet risk is bad PR, a loss in the Supreme Court has much bigger implications (for all of us).
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You're evaluating the cost-benefit analysis as though Apple is a private citizen interested only in civic-mindedness. I'm gratified that that is even a consideration but Apple does not have any obligation to fall on its sword either way (hurting its brand through capitulation now, or having done so before only to be found out). It's a business, and it has business considerations. Be bloody grateful that they seem to care at all.
 
farewelwilliams said:
(2 years later) Apple finally caves.
FBI gets into the terrorist's iphone and just sees Flappy Bird installed.
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Because the FBI officials secretly pocket the real findings, so that they can eventually control everyone in the world, making themselves The Only One directly under the God and above everyone else.
 
JohnGrey said:
You're evaluating the cost-benefit analysis as though Apple is a private citizen interested only in civic-mindedness. I'm gratified that that is even a consideration but Apple does not have any obligation to fall on its sword either way (hurting its brand through capitulation now, or having done so before only to be found out). It's a business, and it has business considerations. Be bloody grateful that they seem to care at all.
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I think you have completely misunderstood me. My primary concern is for the continued ability to encrypt my data and feel secure that no one including the government can access it. I don't care whether Apple is hurt financially. They can surely afford it. The point is, if they lose this case we all lose as well.
 
rocknblogger said:
I think you have completely misunderstood me. My primary concern is for the continued ability to encrypt my data and feel secure that no one including the government can access it. I don't care whether Apple is hurt financially. They can surely afford it. The point is, if they lose this case we all lose as well.
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Only way to defend rights is to fight for them head on directly. As for another case, Apple has been hit with another court order regarding backdoor ink a meth drug leaders iPhone. But FBI thinks the San Bernadino phone will garner more support, it's terror after all. The new boogyman man since USSR collapsed.

Let's see what I should fear more statistically speaking.

40,000 vehicle accident death last year.
10,000 gun deaths last year.
15 nut job terrorist deaths last year.
Governor of Michigan poisining 8,000 kids in Flint to save money last year.

Where is the money going, where are the resources centered, where is the propaganda largest. Maybe it's me, but are the priorities skewed here?
 
HEK said:
Only way to defend rights is to fight for them head on directly. As for another case, Apple has been hit with another court order regarding backdoor ink a meth drug leaders iPhone. But FBI thinks the San Bernadino phone will garner more support, it's terror after all. The new boogyman man since USSR collapsed.

Let's see what I should fear more statistically speaking.

40,000 vehicle accident death last year.
10,000 gun deaths last year.
15 nut job terrorist deaths last year.
Governor of Michigan poisining 8,000 kids in Flint to save money last year.

Where is the money going, where are the resources centered, where is the propaganda largest. Maybe it's me, but are the priorities skewed here?
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I heard about the meth case but I don't think the FBI is involved in that one. I believe it's the New York DA though not 100% sure. And yes fighting for your rights head on is correct. I just wish this wasn't a terrorist related case as I don't think Apple or anyone can win it.
 
rocknblogger said:
I heard about the meth case but I don't think the FBI is involved in that one. I believe it's the New York DA though not 100% sure. And yes fighting for your rights head on is correct. I just wish this wasn't a terrorist related case as I don't think Apple or anyone can win it.
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I do recal the New York DA being mentioned. Tend to believe this case and phone in particular are being used exactly because FBI can pull out the terrorist card. Judge should not let that influence anything. Their is no pending charges, suspects were tried, convicted and executed at the scene, so no prosecution is pending.

The suspects had two other cell phones, they crushed those and removed and successfully disposed of the computer hard drive. They did this before executing their crimes. I find it highly improbable that any significant actionable Intel will be found on the one phone they did not destroy.

Justice department has been trying to purswuade Apple (Tim Cook) to create a back door into iPhones for more than two years. Apple expressly designed ios8 and 9 to exclude even their own ability to access a locked phone. People have purchased iPhones partly because they have this high degree of security. The privacy of financial, medical, personal information is something most Apple users are not willing to give up.

This will have to be resolved, and if a back door is created, at some point it will be used illegally or abused by our own government. If compromised real criminals will switch to add on software with strong encryption. This is a back and forth war that will escalate back and forth. Had the government not hacked into emails, phone calls, texts, meta data of all US and other counties citizens I would not feel as strongly. Loss of trust, I have, will not be gained back in my lifetime.

Other counties have abandoned many US based data companies, realizing losses of billions for these companies. As well as a distrust, even loathing for the US. The cyber wars are coming, and the lack of security on net is direct result of US NSA and CIA wanting it that way. We wrote a Trojan program disbursed around the world, designed to attack the CNC computer Numerical Controls of a Siemens drive motor used in the Iranian centrifuges. Not widely known, certainly not admitted to, but evidence is pretty conclusive. Course we will a squack bloody murder when we are retaliated upon. Forcing even more draconian surveillance and tax money spent with companies poised ready to help at "any cost".
 
DTphonehome said:
This is a critical juncture. If Apple yields on this, then there is no telling how far governments (of the United States, or other, more nefarious, governments) will embed themselves into their citizens' electronic lives. We may trust the government's intention this time, but who knows how a future government will use this tool?
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The scenario of the government snooping in our private lives is such a troubling issue that we collectively must leave no stone unturned to defeat any such future legislation re backdoors.

Under another guise, it is ultimately nothing less than another step in curtailing our freedoms.
 
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