Google CEO Calls FBI's Request for Apple Backdoor 'A Troubling Precedent'

[HEK]

Let me guess, courts are good when Samsung copies but courts are bad when Apple says so? The law is good when Apple pays low taxes but the law is bad when Apple says so?

The court order is for a "FBiOS" that is coded/signed by Apple to work only on the ID of one specific iphone5c. How does that affect the normal person's privacy?

Because it never stops at one device. There is at least one other court order regarding iPhone of meth dealer FBI wants opened. Once such a software is created, if possible, then all pretense of privacy is gone. It becomes a matter of when, not if, that software falls into other hands, gets re-engineered and usable on any iPhone.

If you want to leave your phone without passcode or fingerprint ID please do so. I suspect that the other 700 million users are not so eager to do so. I want to retain my privacy, period. NO BACKDOOR!

Some penny anty judge is not going to be the end of this. This has Supreme Court written all over it. After what Snowden and Assange revealed about government spying on us, I trust government to not do the right thing. A vigilant informed people are the only stop gap to government overreaching.

 

[wikiverse]

1. 
   The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution provides, "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly ...

Seems like a "reasonable search" to me. Seems there is probable cause to search. Not weighing in on if Apple should or should not, but I feel here the 4th amendment gives access.

Even if ordered by the court, Apple can still say no. No court can order a person or business to create something that doesn't exist. If Apple simply had existing information that they refused to hand over, it would be a different story, but what the FBI are asking for doesn't exist.

 

[MH01]

Under Tim Cook's reign, Apple has taken an unbendable stance on privacy

Geez this sounds impressive, though that stance was set before Tim took over, Tim has just run with it. If people want to give credit for apples direction on this matter, it goes back to Jobs and his setup.

Tim's reign, that made me chuckle a bit....
[doublepost=1455778242][/doublepost]

Why does Obama want to take away your privacy?

Cause Tim took away upgradablability from our apple products!

 

[pika2000]

Why does Obama want to take away your privacy?

Because privacy is white privilege.
[doublepost=1455779141][/doublepost]I don't understand why the FBI is going into such trouble. All they could've done was to set up a honeypot (like usual), have a guy set up as a terrorist using like a smartphone from lower tier companies like Acer/Asus/Blu or something, and then have those companies open up their phones via court to set up a precedence. I'm sure those companies won't care about privacy as much as Apple. Set a precedence, boom, done. Then go back to Apple. Apple will have less leverage.

Right now, Apple has such huge leverage since they were seen to be the first and the "martyr."

 

[John Mcgregor]

Could be? Could be a troubling precedent? ****ing google.

 

[M5RahuL]

Haven't read the responses, but what if the Govt already has had access, whether in cahoots with or w/o Apple and this is all staged to give everyone (including the bad guys) a false sense of security ?

 

[LizKat]

Because privacy is white privilege.
[doublepost=1455779141][/doublepost]I don't understand why the FBI is going into such trouble. All they could've done was to set up a honeypot (like usual), have a guy set up as a terrorist using like a smartphone from lower tier companies like Acer/Asus/Blu or something, and then have those companies open up their phones via court to set up a precedence. I'm sure those companies won't care about privacy as much as Apple. Set a precedence, boom, done. Then go back to Apple. Apple will have less leverage.

Right now, Apple has such huge leverage since they were seen to be the first and the "martyr."

Apple has huge leverage because their secure smartphones are in use all over the world, including places where you can get beaten up or killed for doing anything so brazen as emailing a comment critical of the government. In addition there are plenty heads of state, diplomats, NGOs and other companies whose employees may need to keep their smartphones showing a lockscreen to the world at large.

Why does tne NSA think we have forgotten about having been spied on en masse even after Congress defunded the so called Total Information Awareness project. We may have short attention spans these days but that doesn't mean we lack memory banks. When they cry wolf about something now, I remain unmoved. There's no such thing as a one-off with them. It's about trying to get rid of encryption by wearing down all the smartphone manufacturers, one court order requested decryption at a time. The techs need to stand up together or they'll all be out of business because *someone* from not-USA will provide people with encryption capabilities if it appears compromised inside the USA.

Isn't government manipulation of corporations for whatever purpose the government sees fit one of the hallmarks of fascism?

 

[Rigby]

It's been the policy of the administration to gain back the backdoor access lost after implementation of iOS 8/9 with the secure enclave on a chip. There have been a number of meetings with Apple where Obama administration official, FBI, Justice Department, Homeland Sc. Have attempted to convince Apple to create a back for. This latest attempt is using FBI and the San Bernadino iPhone as a front for these effort in a court ordered format.

Actually, the Obama administration seems to have changed its opinion a few months ago (which apparently angered the FBI according to this article):

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/us/politics/obama-wont-seek-access-to-encrypted-user-data.html

 

[Juicy Box]

Actually, the Obama administration seems to have changed its opinion a few months ago (which apparently angered the FBI according to this article):

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/us/politics/obama-wont-seek-access-to-encrypted-user-data.html

According to the linked article, the only thing that has changed the administration doesn't want to force tech companies to play ball. The article says that the Obama admin is still trying to convince tech companies to give access.

But, either way, it is slightly better than it was before.

 

[Rigby]

I don't think Google is standing by Apple. Google is taking the I got your back, way back, bit with Apple.

Google's response has been pathetic. One company wants to be a leader in this area and it's not Google. Maybe Snowden is right about Google.

Google isn't really in a position to take a strong stand in this debate. They cannot use zero-knowledge encryption for the customer data in their cloud (since analyzing them is key to their business model), and they cannot provide the same level of privacy as Apple on most Android devices either because they don't control the hardware. Apple is in a unique position in this regard. It also seems that Tim Cook takes a personal interest in this topic.
[doublepost=1455782157][/doublepost]

According to the linked article, the only thing that has changed the administration doesn't want to force tech companies to play ball. The article says that the Obama admin is still trying to convince tech companies to give access.

Here's a quote:

"While the administration said it would continue to try to persuade companies like Apple and Google to assist in criminal and national security investigations, it determined that the government should not force them to breach the security of their products."

In other words, according to the article they seem have decided exactly not to do what the FBI is currently trying to do. Would be nice if the administration could comment on this case and why they haven't instructed the FBI to back down in accordance with this new position.

 

[iChrist]

At this moment, I have no reason to believe Google would have said no as Apple did.

Says some 2-bit developer with a goatee. Thanks for your insight, i'm sure people who make 10x in an hour what you make in a lifetime would be interested in your analysis. Google has zero incentive to comply, same as Apple. If Apple couldn't spin it into a PR blurb, the backdoor would already be open.

 

[Jambalaya]

There is a long established global precedent that law enforcemnet can obtain a search warrant for your property. A mobile phone or your email account is just the same.

Apple, Google, Twitter, Facebook are blocking legitimate law enforcement whilst hiding behind libertairian arguments. What they really care about is profit and are willing to allow terrorists and pedophiles to operate beyond the law to pursue it.
[doublepost=1455782700][/doublepost]

Why does Obama want to take away your privacy?

Any law enforcemnet agency in the world can "take away your privacy" with a search warrant of your home. This request to Apple is no different

 

[thekeyring]

As I said in another thread, what if the government forces Apple to implement a backdoor? Will it be hardware based or software based? If it is hardware based, the perpetrators won't buy the newest iPhone, and stick to an older model, where as the software backdoor would require an update. The perpetrators would probably be smarter than that to update, and stay on an older version of iOS. Then the government would ask Apple to force newer software onto devices. And that would piss a lot of people off.... Even with a backdoor implemented, it would affect other users in different countries besides the US, making others vulnerable to hacking. This should be looked into depth at an international level, not just concerning the US, because millions of other people's privacy is at stake here.

There is always going to be work arounds, to the locks, and I am glad the tech companies are sticking up for the general consumers rights, not just the small percent of those who are committing these atrocities. It will be interesting what Microsoft does about this.

Also we can't forget about the numerous android phone manufacturers, that exist in many countries and aren't controlled by the US government

It seems like they only want the modified version of iOS to be installed on this particular device.

Apple forks iOS to a version with no auto delete and time delay between password attempts, force installs it on said iPhone, FBI can then try all passwords from 0000 to 9999.

 

[pika2000]

Apple has huge leverage because their secure smartphones are in use all over the world, including places where you can get beaten up or killed for doing anything so brazen as emailing a comment critical of the government. In addition there are plenty heads of state, diplomats, NGOs and other companies whose employees may need to keep their smartphones showing a lockscreen to the world at large.

Isn't government manipulation of corporations for whatever purpose the government sees fit one of the hallmarks of fascism?

Whatever outside the case is besides the point.

I think the FBI was too gung ho about this that they are forgetting their tried-and-tru strategy of creating false flags to entice support. Like I mentioned, instead going straight against Apple head on, they could've staged up something using other companies that care less about privacy to set a real precedence. Then it's a bit harder for Apple as the FBI can show how justified their claims are.

"Look, company X allowed us to do this and we prevented a tragedy. How could you (Apple) not collaborate with us?"
Bam.

Right now, all they (FBI) are doing is making Apple look like a saint. And now the copycats are standing besides Apple for their PR.

 

[HEK]

There is a long established global precedent that law enforcemnet can obtain a search warrant for your property. A mobile phone or your email account is just the same.

Apple, Google, Twitter, Facebook are blocking legitimate law enforcement whilst hiding behind libertairian arguments. What they really care about is profit and are willing to allow terrorists and pedophiles to operate beyond the law to pursue it.
[doublepost=1455782700][/doublepost]
Any law enforcemnet agency in the world can "take away your privacy" with a search warrant of your home. This request to Apple is no different

It is very different, they want Apple to make something that doesn't exist. They have the phone and Apple has helped as far as it's able. No court order can make them design software.
[doublepost=1455784900][/doublepost]

Haven't read the responses, but what if the Govt already has had access, whether in cahoots with or w/o Apple and this is all staged to give everyone (including the bad guys) a false sense of security ?

They did ios7 and before. That's why iOS was rewritten and enclave on chip was instituted. The old NSA back door hack doesn't work any more with ios8/9. And the way Apple designed it even they don't have a back door. It's all internal to that phone.

 

[gnasher729]

As to the argument that by making the iPhone less secure the FBI could then unlock any suspect's iPhone: Not, they couldn't. The code to check a single passcode takes about 1/10th of a second to run. You can check all 4 digit passcodes in about 1,000 seconds. But if I pick a 6 digit passcode, it takes 100,000 seconds or a good day. If I pick 8 digits, it takes 10 million seconds or four months. If I pick 10 digits, it takes a billion seconds or 30 years. And I can pick 10 digits and letters if I like, which is then impossible to crack.

Cook's unbendable stance is commendable.

If only the iPhone were as unbendable.

Great idea. The FBI could go and bend all terrorist suspect's iPhone. That will teach them!
[doublepost=1455786341][/doublepost]

"Look, company X allowed us to do this and we prevented a tragedy. How could you (Apple) not collaborate with us?"

The victims are dead. The perpetrators are dead. The case is solved. The tragedy cannot be prevented. The perpetrators destroyed several devices, except one iPhone. I doubt they forgot that phone. It either didn't contain any information worth destroying, or they relied on Apple's assurance that the phone cannot be unlocked. Or both. If Apple _did_ unlock their phone, that wouldn't help one bit, because any future terrorist would know and don't rely on this anymore.

Any law enforcemnet agency in the world can "take away your privacy" with a search warrant of your home. This request to Apple is no different

But it is. They are not asking to give them information that Apple has. They are asking Apple to change their business strategy because of something that doesn't have anything to do with Apple.

I suggest that Apple adds to their contract terms and conditions a clause that you are not allowed to use the iPhone for any terrorism related activities. That should be enough to keep us safe from any law-abiding terrorists.

 

[nicho]

if apple gets pushed further on this and has to back down...

the method the government is asking for is not entirely unreasonable... could apple then respond by forcing 8+ digit passcodes on users?

 

[diipii]

I see comments here typical of a nation dumb enough to believe in a "zombie apocalypse." Apple has become insular, arrogant and dangerous to itself and its homeland. It's long overdue that the US government restored normality.
I simply can't imagine any nation that would provide its enemies with a secure and secret means of global, mobile communication.
Did 911 teach you nothing ?

 

[Ghost31]

I thought Tim liked "back door access"

Was wondering when juvenile gay jokes would enter the thread.
[doublepost=1455790116][/doublepost]

I suggest that Apple adds to their contract terms and conditions a clause that you are not allowed to use the iPhone for any terrorism related activities. That should be enough to keep us safe from any law-abiding terrorists.

Haven't read the terms and conditions for a long time, but I feel like there actually was something in there about this

 

[Nightarchaon]

Maybe its time for these tech companies to move out of the USA, the US Government would quickly tell the FBI to stop if google, apple and other big tech firms left the USA for pastures new.

 

[iapplelove]

I don't think Google is standing by Apple. Google is taking the I got your back, way back, bit with Apple.

Google's response has been pathetic. One company wants to be a leader in this area and it's not Google. Maybe Snowden is right about Google.

Yes I will agree with this for sure. like I said I totally feel Google would have caved.

 

[Kabeyun]

Or by the third amendment they been playing with their guns and shot themselves in foot.

The third amendment? They shot themselves while enjoying a home free of the military?

 

[MacCubed]

It seems like they only want the modified version of iOS to be installed on this particular device.

Apple forks iOS to a version with no auto delete and time delay between password attempts, force installs it on said iPhone, FBI can then try all passwords from 0000 to 9999.

I did think that was a possibility, but once apple caves once, what's stopping the FBI from pushing them to unlock other phones in this case?

 

[rdowns]

What a weasel statement. We get it, Apple-us Google-FBI.

 

[pika2000]

The victims are dead. The perpetrators are dead. The case is solved. The tragedy cannot be prevented. The perpetrators destroyed several devices, except one iPhone. I doubt they forgot that phone. It either didn't contain any information worth destroying, or they relied on Apple's assurance that the phone cannot be unlocked. Or both. If Apple _did_ unlock their phone, that wouldn't help one bit, because any future terrorist would know and don't rely on this anymore.

You are assuming that the FBI's objective is terrorism, and if that's the case, your argument is correct. IMO, that's not their objective in Apple's case. Their objective is creating precedence, which is why I said it's silly to go head on to Apple just because they have an iPhone on hand. They should just do what they are best at, creating a false flag event, using a company X who is less concerned about its users, and bam. They will be at a different position now since they can bad mouth Apple in comparison to company X.

Right now, Apple is becoming a saint, and all tech companies would want to be close to the saint (eg. Google).

Silly FBI.